BoomerSooner Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 8 hours ago, Rick73 said: Car and Driver tested a new Tesla S with 405 miles of “combined” range, 390 miles “highway” range, but only got 280 miles at steady 75 MPH. To save time on a long road trip, charging would be limited to 80% state of charge, and on average may run down to 20%, depending on how close Superchargers are located. Anyway, 60% (80-20) of 280 miles is only 170 miles. In cold winter conditions, heavy rain, etc. that will drop even lower. Just saying difference between EPA rated range and what owners can actually expect in normal use can be very different. This is *exactly* my concern. Having recently experienced what extremely cold weather does to battery range with my plug-in, the "rated" 300 mile range will be far, far less than that under anything less than ideal conditions. Add to that the complications about not fully charging unless you really need it, about not actually drawing the range to zero, about sustained highway speeds zapping the battery, about the enormous range consequence 7 passengers would impose, about the inability to tow anything within any normal distance, and you have all the makings for a functionally useless--but very expensive--vehicle. Worse, Tesla reportedly allows consumers to use more of the available battery than manufacturers like Ford. So the real-world 7-passenger Ford's range would likely fare even worse. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 6 hours ago, Rick73 said: I can understand how auto buyers in general initially had unrealistic expectations of BEV capabilities, which may have led them to express interest in buying BEVs based on flawed knowledge that would later change based on actual use experience, but what I struggle understanding is how manufacturers did not anticipate adjustment coming. Unless senior management did not listen to engineers, or engineers were clueless to how BEVs would perform in the real world, it’s hard to comprehend that manufacturers did not see demand slowing somewhat. Guys, let's please not turn this into another discussion on the shortcomings of EVs, there are other threads for that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 13 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: Guys, let's please not turn this into another discussion on the shortcomings of EVs, there are other threads for that. I replied directly to a specific point made by someone else. Context is that if Ford replaces an existing ICE vehicle with a future BEV vehicle, which is part of thread as it affects volume, they (Ford) is or may be taking a huge risk, depending on your point of view. Are we talking about complete censorship on electrification now? As manufacturers transition everything from ICE to HEV to BEV, how do you guys plan to separate these issues? It’s an inherent part of actions being taken. Yeah, we can ignore things we don’t like, but that seems counterproductive and naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: I replied directly to a specific point made by someone else. Context is that if Ford replaces an existing ICE vehicle with a future BEV vehicle, which is part of thread as it affects volume, they (Ford) is or may be taking a huge risk, depending on your point of view. Are we talking about complete censorship on electrification now? As manufacturers transition everything from ICE to HEV to BEV, how do you guys plan to separate these issues? It’s an inherent part of actions being taken. Yeah, we can ignore things we don’t like, but that seems counterproductive and naive. The point is it’s off topic and there are dozens of other topics on EVs. It’s a reasonable request. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: I replied directly to a specific point made by someone else. Context is that if Ford replaces an existing ICE vehicle with a future BEV vehicle, which is part of thread as it affects volume, they (Ford) is or may be taking a huge risk, depending on your point of view. Are we talking about complete censorship on electrification now? As manufacturers transition everything from ICE to HEV to BEV, how do you guys plan to separate these issues? It’s an inherent part of actions being taken. Yeah, we can ignore things we don’t like, but that seems counterproductive and naive. I know, but this is how things start to spiral out of control. A discussion on the edge turns into a discussion on the 7 seater replacing the edge, which in turn turns into some broader discussion on EVs. Before you know it, everyone is running around screaming their political and societal views at each other. Let's not let it get that far ?.I'm guilty of this myself, but I'm trying to be more mindful of it moving forward. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, akirby said: The point is it’s off topic and there are dozens of other topics on EVs. It’s a reasonable request. I always follow rules, but in this case I can’t even tell what the rules are, or why I was singled out to make an example of. There were at least three posts by three different people about electrification before I replied to one of them, which with due respect doesn’t seem out of line whatsoever. Additionally, you responded to two of my other posts after that, and didn’t address any wrongdoing. So if my comments were off topic, why weren’t the other three beforehand, or why were my posts not addressed by a moderator until a person with obvious ideology take exception? I’m honestly confused on what is acceptable topic of discussion within a thread, and would appreciate clarity on what the rules are. Yeah, I get not attacking others, name calling, bad language etc. but my post was factual in nature, and not political at all. I like BEVs for what they are, and don’t intentionally take or express personal political views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 58 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: I know, but this is how things start to spiral out of control. A discussion on the edge turns into a discussion on the 7 seater replacing the edge, which in turn turns into some broader discussion on EVs. Before you know it, everyone is running around screaming their political and societal views at each other. Let's not let it get that far ?.I'm guilty of this myself, but I'm trying to be more mindful of it moving forward. Do me a favor and tell me how my posts were “political” or “societal”? I try my best to communicate based on facts, and when facts support one political side or the other, it’s 100% coincidence. P.S. — If you guys think it best, I’ll stay out of this conversation entirely. However, consider that censorship, even when applied with good intentions, risks honest communication because participants will always hold back out of fear. Edited February 1 by Rick73 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: Do me a favor and tell me how my posts were “political” or “societal”? I try my best to communicate based on facts, and when facts support one political side or the other, it’s 100% coincidence. P.S. — If you guys think it best, I’ll stay out of this conversation entirely. However, consider that censorship, even when applied with good intentions, risks honest communication because participants will always hold back out of fear. It's really not a big deal. Let's just get back on topic. Sorry for making you feel singled out, that wasn't my intention. Let's just stick to discussing the edge, and it's potential replacements. But let's refrain from having broader discussions about EVs as a whole, or the downsides to electrification on this forum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dequindre Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 It's a shame to see the Edge go as it was a well-regarded product. Its size also seems like a logical way to essentially upsell Escape buyers that want something a little more premium feeling. While the Escape may be a "commodity" product, the Edge was always positioned as something a bit more premium, which is why I am surprised that it got the axe. Perhaps it is just a victim of not having sufficient plant space at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: Do me a favor and tell me how my posts were “political” or “societal”? I try my best to communicate based on facts, and when facts support one political side or the other, it’s 100% coincidence. P.S. — If you guys think it best, I’ll stay out of this conversation entirely. However, consider that censorship, even when applied with good intentions, risks honest communication because participants will always hold back out of fear. It’s really simple. When someone points out the discussion is off topic and the moderator agrees you don’t keep arguing about it. And if you can’t understand why it’s off topic then you probably shouldn’t be posting here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 If given a choice between an Everest or Evos, I'll take the one with the EB 27 or 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 hours ago, Dequindre said: It's a shame to see the Edge go as it was a well-regarded product. Its size also seems like a logical way to essentially upsell Escape buyers that want something a little more premium feeling. While the Escape may be a "commodity" product, the Edge was always positioned as something a bit more premium, which is why I am surprised that it got the axe. Perhaps it is just a victim of not having sufficient plant space at the moment. We shall see if Farleys genius plan to remove this COMMODITY plays out in the long run! They could’ve carried on with an Edge/Nautilus Hybrid at OAC. They chose to move forward with the future, if Ford didn’t do anything with forward thinking people would say they’re moving too slow. All I can say is I’m hoping for the best! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 18 hours ago, akirby said: Not poor planning on downtime. It’s a huge effort to rebuild a plant for EV production. Not a simple retooling. When you factor in the startup of the new models the timeline seems reasonable to me. It is unfortunate they have to lose production for that long though. 17 hours ago, Rick73 said: Are there not already plenty of choices with 300 miles or greater, and not doing great in sales? There doesn’t seem to be a lot of middle ground, and that’s a huge problem for manufacturers in my opinion. For local trips when charging at home, almost any modern-day-BEV range will do, making it a good fit (even 200 miles). On the other hand, for long highway trips, even the best BEV are undesirable for most owners. Granted, anyone can take a long road trip in a BEV, but why would most buyers want to? Car and Driver tested a new Tesla S with 405 miles of “combined” range, 390 miles “highway” range, but only got 280 miles at steady 75 MPH. To save time on a long road trip, charging would be limited to 80% state of charge, and on average may run down to 20%, depending on how close Superchargers are located. Anyway, 60% (80-20) of 280 miles is only 170 miles. In cold winter conditions, heavy rain, etc. that will drop even lower. Just saying difference between EPA rated range and what owners can actually expect in normal use can be very different. I happen to agree with BoomerSooner’s concern for there being enough demand for a 7-passenger BEV, and that a conventional replacement may be less risky at this time. I’m certain there would be some buyers who would purchase a 7-seat BEV knowing they would not take it on long trips, but I expect those numbers must be small. Sadly, these decisions were made years ago before market conditions changed, so we may find out soon enough. I guess my statement had more to do with not specifically building products that people wanted. It’s pretty clear they misjudged the transition to BEV, and now have a questionable product mix, IMO. I don’t personally see how they will be able to support four BEVs for the foreseeable future at that plant. It seems they will have a lot of excess capacity now for something that isn’t in demand. I can tell you right now that real world of battery usage for the MME in normal operation is not consistent with stated ranges, and people have been learning that. During the last cold snap, the MME couldn’t handle what I would consider to be a pretty common drive in my area, which would have resulted in me having to stop to charge on the way home. So instead, I had to use my Edge that day for that commute. It’s primarily the cold weather range that just sucks. ultimately, I would hate to be a manufacturer trying to navigate this transition. The target will be constantly moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 18 hours ago, akirby said: I floated the Evos as an edge replacement in a couple of edge groups and forums and the response was a hard no thanks. I think it would do ok but not as a direct Edge replacement. And neither is Bronco or Mach-e. Part of the problem is a lot of current edge buyers love the 2.7L which won’t be available with C2. But I think having a hybrid and the high tech dash would bring in new buyers and keep it from being a commodity. As someone who who is using both at edge and an MME, I will agree that the Evos is likely not a direct replacement. The edge definitely has a more upright stance to it and a higher seating position, but I do think it would pick up a few edge buyers. As you previously stated, I think a C2 edge would likely be the most effective replacement for that vehicle. They have the Chinese edge that they could use, however, I believe that would need some aesthetic tweaks to be successful here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 12 hours ago, Dequindre said: It's a shame to see the Edge go as it was a well-regarded product. Its size also seems like a logical way to essentially upsell Escape buyers that want something a little more premium feeling. While the Escape may be a "commodity" product, the Edge was always positioned as something a bit more premium, which is why I am surprised that it got the axe. Perhaps it is just a victim of not having sufficient plant space at the moment. I agree that the Edge has always been positioned as a more premium product than the Escape. We had a 2011 Edge. My wife drove a new Edge before we bought the Corsair. She thought the new Edge was too much like our 13 year old Edge and immediately dropped it from consideration. It really didn’t feel as premium as it used to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 58 minutes ago, CurtisH said: I agree that the Edge has always been positioned as a more premium product than the Escape. We had a 2011 Edge. My wife drove a new Edge before we bought the Corsair. She thought the new Edge was too much like our 13 year old Edge and immediately dropped it from consideration. It really didn’t feel as premium as it used to. They did do quite a bit of decontenting and cost cutting but I think the other vehicles just got more refined and upscale in comparison. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 4 hours ago, akirby said: They did do quite a bit of decontenting and cost cutting but I think the other vehicles just got more refined and upscale in comparison. Which is the worst-case scenario. And then Ford sits there wondering why sales dry up... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 36 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Which is the worst-case scenario. And then Ford sits there wondering why sales dry up... I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by this 2023 Edge SEL AWD I was recently assigned. Prior to receiving it I was disappointed about it because the other Edges we have had really felt spartan inside, mostly because of the very generic looking center stack. They apparently dropped that design (thankfully) and replaced it with 12” screen, which is a significant upgrade IMO, giving it a more modern feel inside. Now granted the car hasn’t been updated in a while, but I think the interior materials are good, fit and finish has been good, and doesn’t seem completely decontented, although I don’t have proper perspective to know how true that last statement is. My only major complaint right now is the front edge of the drivers seat is too high, causing it to put unwanted pressure on the back of my thighs. I have not been enjoying that on my longer trips. I thought the SEL was supposed to have an 8 way seat, but this feels like 6. I was wondering if this was because it is a fleet model but I haven’t confirmed yet. It’s really a shame they did not update this model. All it needed was new sheet metal and an updated interior. It could have soldiered on with this frame and a few powertrain updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 34 minutes ago, tbone said: It’s really a shame they did not update this model. All it needed was new sheet metal and an updated interior. It could have soldiered on with this frame and a few powertrain updates. It needed to move to C2. CD4 was too heavy (built to handle V6 ecoboosts) and too old and it would have been the only one left on that platform. The heavy lifting on C2 Edge was already done in China - just needs a new top hat. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 15 minutes ago, akirby said: It needed to move to C2. CD4 was too heavy (built to handle V6 ecoboosts) and too old and it would have been the only one left on that platform. The heavy lifting on C2 Edge was already done in China - just needs a new top hat. Totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 11 minutes ago, tbone said: Totally agree. We did a massive retool of this plant in 2014/15 of the Edge since then we have only had mid cycle refreshes. I agree with Akirby on his assessment. I suppose retooling Oakville to continue on Edge and Nautilus just wasn’t feasible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Well, since the 2024 Nautilus is on C2 Global...the only reasonable recourse for Edge is to follow suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 36 minutes ago, twintornados said: Well, since the 2024 Nautilus is on C2 Global...the only reasonable recourse for Edge is to follow suit Wouldn’t they have done that already?? Edge isn’t part of the plant it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 10 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: Wouldn’t they have done that already?? Edge isn’t part of the plant it seems. I don't know why Ford does or doesn't do a lot of things....sadly, Edge and Nautilus on CD4 got swept up in the EV craze. Imagine a Ford Edge, built at Oakville, on C2 and hybrid...it would sell exceedingly well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 It would have but that’s not the reality and i can only hope that the BEV plan doesn’t turn out to be a disaster at OAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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