Ford Management Bonuses Now Directly Tied to Quality

[akirby]

29 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

The traverse applications of these engines has to be a minority compared to the RWD versions

How do you figure that?  They were in every edge, Taurus, MKX, MKS, Explorer, flex and a few other vehicles for at least a decade.

[Andrew L]

1 hour ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

The traverse applications of these engines has to be a minority compared to the RWD versions, yet you want to paint all of them with the same brush.

 

HRG

 

I literally didn't. I said the RWD version does not have this problem you left that part out of the quote from my post.

 

Also I'm pretty sure the RWD version is the minority and not the FWD version. They sold the FWD version in far more models than the RWD version

 

Affected vehicles

• 2008-09 Mercury Sable
• 2008-09 Ford Taurus X
• 2007-18 Ford Edge
• 2009-19 Ford Flex
• 2010-12 Ford Fusion Sport
• 2007-16 Lincoln MKZ
• 2009-13 Mazda 6 3.7L V6
• 2007-15 Mazda CX-9
• 2008-19 Ford Taurus (including SHO)
• 2017-20 Lincoln Continental
• 2007-18 Lincoln MKX
• 2010-19 Lincoln MKT
• 2011-19 Ford Explorer
• 2013-19 Ford Police Interceptor Sedan
• 2013-19 Ford Police Interceptor Utility
• 2009-16 Lincoln MKS

 

[HotRunrGuy]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

How do you figure that?  They were in every edge, Taurus, MKX, MKS, Explorer, flex and a few other vehicles for at least a decade.

 

OK, OK. I sure would have thought that F-150 usage alone would have beat the FWD numbers.

 

HRG

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

How do you figure that?  They were in every edge, Taurus, MKX, MKS, Explorer, flex and a few other vehicles for at least a decade.

Exactly, literally millions of engines, and people want to act like it's bad because a few hundred people on forums have complained about the water pump. 

[DeluxeStang]

But discussions on past Ford engines aside, I do think we're getting slightly off topic here. 

[7Mary3]

Yes, but consider this:  Would an entry or mid-level manager have the authority to make a major engine design change?  I wouldn't think so, but it appears those are the people Farley wants to hold responsible for quality problems.

 

BTW, later FWD versions of the V-6 in question have an external weep hole if the water pump starts to leak.  So at least an observant owner can get by with paying a mere $1200 to replace the water pump (probably should do the timing chains, guides, and tensioners while you are at it).  Still a stupid design....

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

Yes, but consider this:  Would an entry or mid-level manager have the authority to make a major engine design change?  I wouldn't think so, but it appears those are the people Farley wants to hold responsible for quality problems.

Agree they probably would not have the authority to make changes on their own, but most employees have the ability to influence decision makers above them.  If they see a stupid design, they could “constructively” and “respectfully” point out the flaw and offer a better solution.  Obviously that takes talent not only to see and or anticipate a flaw others haven’t, but even more to generate an alternate solution that is superior.

 

In my opinion corporate success depends greatly on cumulative employee talent and also a culture where they are willing to work hard towards common goals regardless of who gets the credit.

[silvrsvt]

I'm guessing the water pump issue is like the cam phaser issue on other Ford engines-it happens, but not to the point that a complete redesign needs to happen. Or PTUs on D3 platform

[7Mary3]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

I'm guessing the water pump issue is like the cam phaser issue on other Ford engines-it happens, but not to the point that a complete redesign needs to happen. Or PTUs on D3 platform

 

Water pumps wear out and leak, but they typically don't fail until after the warranty is up.  Draw your own conclusions......

 

 

[akirby]

8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Yes, but consider this:  Would an entry or mid-level manager have the authority to make a major engine design change?  I wouldn't think so, but it appears those are the people Farley wants to hold responsible for quality problems..

But they have the obligation to find and report these problems.  And to escalate up the line if nobody listens.  If everyone knows they’ll be held accountable there won’t be any incentive to hide problems.

[fuzzymoomoo]

40 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

I'm guessing the water pump issue is like the cam phaser issue on other Ford engines-it happens, but not to the point that a complete redesign needs to happen. Or PTUs on D3 platform

yeah but this one has happened enough for me to get an extended warranty when I bought out my lease, just in case. I’m good to around 100k if it craps out on me.

[silvrsvt]

40 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

yeah but this one has happened enough for me to get an extended warranty when I bought out my lease, just in case. I’m good to around 100k if it craps out on me.

 

It was part of the reason why I sold my SHO before I got my Bronco in (at the time it was only a couple weeks at that point and then turned into a complete shit show LOL), I was right at 100K or so with it and figured might as well get rid of it because I didn't want that big of an expense right before selling it. 

[akirby]

It’s a common problem but as a percentage of all engines sold, it’s probably a small number.

[Rick73]

14 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Water pumps wear out and leak, but they typically don't fail until after the warranty is up.  Draw your own conclusions......

 

 

Excellent point.  The issue of short-term versus long-term reliability/durability and associated repair costs is of great interest to me, particularly when cars are designed and built more complicated than necessary just to improve fuel economy marginally.  A single repair can offset a decade’s worth of fuel savings.  Obviously manufacturers have to meet government regulations, but when I have a choice, I normally prefer KISS principle. 

[Flying68]

I got rid of my 2012 Explorer at ~141k miles, before the water pump became an issue.  I felt I was on borrowed time at that point.  The weep hole was on the 2012's and I think was earlier, however the design of the water pump was not robust.  If the failure happened at the bearing seal, the leak would not show up through the weep hole, it would just dump straight into the oil pan.  Also the initial water pump design had a singular rubber seal to the block.  This was later changed to a 2 seal design, not sure if they went to 3 seals or not.  They also improved the bearing seal.  The only reason for the water pump to be internal was packaging for the transverse mount.  Just for comparison, our 2017 MkC has had the water pump replaced 2 times, both under warranty, it only has 80k miles.

[akirby]

8 minutes ago, Flying68 said:

 Just for comparison, our 2017 MkC has had the water pump replaced 2 times, both under warranty, it only has 80k miles.

But those are external.  I don’t think I’ve heard of water pump failures on I4 ecoboosts before.  Interesting.  Did you change the coolant?

[mackinaw]

Then again, the water pump on my '94 F-150 went out last year.  Only lasted 29 years.  

[akirby]

10 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

Then again, the water pump on my '94 F-150 went out last year.  Only lasted 29 years.  

Garbage……. 😂

 

I know a few edge owners with 250k+ on the original pump.  Regular coolant changes help a lot.

[Flying68]

18 hours ago, akirby said:

But those are external.  I don’t think I’ve heard of water pump failures on I4 ecoboosts before.  Interesting.  Did you change the coolant?

No.  Both times the tech found seepage during routine oil changes, first was around 30k miles, 2nd was just before the powertrain warranty expired (years not miles) somewhere between 50 and 60k miles.  I assume they flushed the coolant each time they replaced the water pump.

 

The bigger point was that on the MkC, a water pump failure was no big deal and a pretty low cost event (warranty or not).  The issue with the transverse 3.5L and 3.7L cyclone V6's was not so much that the water pump could fail, it was that when it did, the repair was in the thousands, and a catastrophic failure would be an engine replacement.  Even a catastrophic water pump failure on the MkC would still be just a water pump (assuming you shut the engine down before it overheats).

[silvrsvt]

My wifes 2010 Escape shit a water pump about 10 years ago. We drove it back home (letting it cool off as we went) about 50-100 miles and it went on to have 157K on the 3.0L V6 it had before it was replaced. 

[Andrew L]

1 minute ago, silvrsvt said:

My wifes 2010 Escape shit a water pump about 10 years ago. We drove it back home (letting it cool off as we went) about 50-100 miles and it went on to have 157K on the 3.0L V6 it had before it was replaced. 

 

Waterpump is external on those too.

[Captainp4]

Water pump on my 96 7.3 failed at 370k miles a couple years ago. JUNK!

[Andrew L]

So related to quality issues my friend has a 2018 MKZ 2.0T and his temp gauge has been hopping around. He took it to a trusted mechanic and they said it's either a head gasket or a cracked cylinder. He told him that it's more than likely the cracked cylinder and that it's a common issue on the 2.0Ts and there's a TSB out for it. He will most likely need a new engine. He recommended he go to the dealership. The car has 69k miles. The powertrain warranty is 6 years 70k miles.  He just went to the Lincoln dealership now and they are trying to not help saying his warranty expired last month. Needless to say he's pretty pissed off. I told him to reach out to the Lincoln Concierge to see if they can help.

[HotRunrGuy]

27 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

So related to quality issues my friend has a 2018 MKZ 2.0T and his temp gauge has been hopping around. He took it to a trusted mechanic and they said it's either a head gasket or a cracked cylinder. He told him that it's more than likely the cracked cylinder and that it's a common issue on the 2.0Ts and there's a TSB out for it. He will most likely need a new engine. He recommended he go to the dealership. The car has 69k miles. The powertrain warranty is 6 years 70k miles.  He just went to the Lincoln dealership now and they are trying to not help saying his warranty expired last month. Needless to say he's pretty pissed off. I told him to reach out to the Lincoln Concierge to see if they can help.

 

Possibly the coolant intrusion problem.  https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10169807-0001.pdf

 

HRG

[Andrew L]

18 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

Possibly the coolant intrusion problem.  https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10169807-0001.pdf

 

HRG

 

That seems like it.  Just got an update and the Concierge won't step in until a diagnostic has been done which is 240 and the car will have to sit there for a week.  They won't give him a loaner unless he pays 77 a day for one.  He's not happy at all.  I told him they will HAVE to do a diagnostic that's understandable but to just leave it there and have his g/f pick him up or if he's willing to wait I can pick him up after work.  He's going to try a Ford dealership next but he will probably be told the same thing.  The fact that this is happening at 1 month after his warranty has expired is like salt in a wound though.