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Ford CEO Jim Farley Says Company Lost Billions on Sedans


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2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


Who says you can’t do both? I understand production capacity needs to be taken into account, but we also know ford has at least 2 plants in North America that aren’t at full capacity (Flat Rock and Louisville). Hell, ship it over from China if you must, at this point I don’t care. 


They can use that capacity for EVs and if they need more products they can do c2 utilities that would be profitable.  It’s just pointless to bring new products that don’t make money.

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2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But here lies the issue-the development work might be "free" but you still need to make new tooling, subassembly production (power plants, interiors) and whatever else to put it into production and then make a profit off it. 

If it was that simple and profitable to do it, I think Ford would be doing it already. 

 

Plus I'd venture to say that nearly every non luxury sedan has some sort of sub leaned financing and discounts on top of a lower MSRP (vs a CUV) to make money off it. 

 

True, but the scales are flipping. It's not the segment necessarily that dictates profitability, but the level of competition within the segment, and the pricing pressure that comes with it. When Ford made the decision to move away from cars to utilities, everyone was making sedans, very few were making aspirational utilities, it was an untapped market.

 

Today, it's basically fulfilled, most brands offer something similar to a bronco sport, this idea of a utility with bolder, more unique styling. Some go the same direction the sport went in, the macho, wannabe off-roader look, others adopted a sportier look. But aspirational utilities are everywhere now. 

 

You know what isn't around anymore? Aspirational coupes, sedans and hatches. A few of them exist, but they're few and far between. These days, it's the aspirational car, not the aspirational utility market that's being underserved. 

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What Ford needs is a suite of vehicles that people want to buy now and in the near future, it’s pointless trying to push overpriced BEVs that don’t work for most customers but that’s where hybrids and PHEVs come in. Ford needs those transitional EVsto move customers from plain ICE to electrified vehicles. CAFE is constantly edging up in the background so the clock is ticking.

 

The big issue is Blue Oval Center, the huge money dropped on building that massive BEV facility is a worry but,  it’s probably cheaper to build in todays cash than say five or ten years time. I simply doubt that anything like its capacity will be needed until the end of the decade. The thing is that the current REV Center has more than enough capacity for BEV F150 for the next four or five years…

 

I reckon we will hear more changes over the next year or so, especially if the economy really starts to slow and inventory keeps piling up. It’s then that we’ll see Ford cut and run on certain things to save money immediately. No matter how good and pivotal Mach E is, sales have never lived up to expectations and its pricing is becoming a challenge for Ford.

Edited by jpd80
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4 hours ago, akirby said:


They can use that capacity for EVs and if they need more products they can do c2 utilities that would be profitable.  It’s just pointless to bring new products that don’t make money.

There’s also an obligation to give dealers products to sell and service but long term, well designed BEVS will probably become low maintenance.

 

the thing that strikes me as odd is the lack of light weighting going on with BEVs to offset the weight of batteries. Things like stamped and glued aluminium body shells and fittings would seem like a no brainer but probably cost prohibitive now.

 

Lots to look forward when Ford combines all available tech.

Edited by jpd80
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15 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

You know what isn't around anymore? Aspirational coupes, sedans and hatches. A few of them exist, but they're few and far between. These days, it's the aspirational car, not the aspirational utility market that's being underserved. 

 

The customer base for aspirational cars continues to shrink, and number of automakers able do them well is also shrinking.

 

Other than V8 Mustangs, GT, and some low volume racing inspired cars like Focus RS and Escort RS Cosworth, nothing in Ford's coupe/sedan/hatch lineup in the past 30 years was aspirational. All of those except Mustang are gone. The only hope for Ford to compete in the aspirational car market is with more race car versions of Mustang like what they've done with Black Horse R and GTD.

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14 hours ago, morgan20 said:

 

The customer base for aspirational cars continues to shrink, and number of automakers able do them well is also shrinking.

 

Other than V8 Mustangs, GT, and some low volume racing inspired cars like Focus RS and Escort RS Cosworth, nothing in Ford's coupe/sedan/hatch lineup in the past 30 years was aspirational. All of those except Mustang are gone. The only hope for Ford to compete in the aspirational car market is with more race car versions of Mustang like what they've done with Black Horse R and GTD.

Good post.

Part of the reason why aspirational vehicles have gone the way of the dinosaur is because so many regular vehicles now have sufficient performance and handling to satisfy most buyers but even then, an aftermarket tune to a turbo vehicle adds a lot more excitement.

 

Even Ford now admits that building apex vehicles is getting so hard because the power and handling expectation are now just so high. Remember a few short years ago when Dodge refused to put a blown hemi V8 in the Viper because it was seen as beyond the capability of most buyers…..now look where we are with power levels.

Edited by jpd80
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On 6/15/2024 at 11:57 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

PS..  Love my MKZ 3.0.  A "best kept secret" that Ford refused to market.  I was looking to replace my SHO that hit 100,000 trouble free miles with a CPO SHO with little luck-unless I wanted to go to Michigan, when I believe somone here (TT?) suggested I look for a Fusion Sport or a 3.0 MKZ.    I started searching You Tube and found all sorts of glowing endorsements for the 3.0 MKZ.

 

Another example of Ford spending money and not capitalizing on what they created

IMO

 

 

I also have a 3.0TT AWD MKZ.  I absolutely love it.  The power comes on immediately and it feels like it never runs out.  I have no idea what I will replace it with when the time comes but thankfully that's not anytime soon.

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On 6/16/2024 at 7:26 AM, jpd80 said:

There’s also an obligation to give dealers products to sell and service but long term, well designed BEVS will probably become low maintenance.

 

the thing that strikes me as odd is the lack of light weighting going on with BEVs to offset the weight of batteries. Things like stamped and glued aluminium body shells and fittings would seem like a no brainer but probably cost prohibitive now.

 

Lots to look forward when Ford combines all available tech.


The Mach E Extended Range's battery pack for example weighs 670kg (1,477lbs), the weight of the cells in the pack is 399kg (879.6lbs).

They'd need to resort to something more exotic like a carbon fiber monocoque structure to really cut down on weight, something you can't do for a mass-produced vehicle that has to be in a certain price point.  

With today's technology, it makes more sense for city cars to go full electric. Small body, small battery, light weight, downside, short range, then again, a city car is meant to mainly go around the city.

The BYD Seagull is about the size of a Chevy Spark or Mitsubishi Mirage. It weighs just around 350lbs more than an ICE car of the same size. Range is just 190 miles though for the standard model.
360px-2023_%D0%92YD_Seagull_(front).jpg




 

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3 hours ago, AM222 said:

With today's technology, it makes more sense for city cars to go full electric. Small body, small battery, light weight, downside, short range, then again, a city car is meant to mainly go around the city.

The BYD Seagull is about the size of a Chevy Spark or Mitsubishi Mirage. It weighs just around 350lbs more than an ICE car of the same size. Range is just 190 miles though for the standard model.
360px-2023_%D0%92YD_Seagull_(front).jpg

 

City style cars are a hard no in the North American market. 

 

The "perfect" IMO product for the NA market would be something roughly the size of the Escape/Bronco Sport, gets about 300 miles of range and can be charged in about 15-20 minutes. I think that tech is less then 5 years away. 

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

City style cars are a hard no in the North American market. 

 

The "perfect" IMO product for the NA market would be something roughly the size of the Escape/Bronco Sport, gets about 300 miles of range and can be charged in about 15-20 minutes. I think that tech is less then 5 years away. 

This means an electric Escape with a 1000+ pound battery pack. You'll end up with something like a Mach E.  

Ford just needs to remember that outside the NA market, B-segment vehicles are very important, and they need a new global subcompact ASAP. 

Fiat's new B-segment Grande Panda.
fiat-grande-panda-2024.jpg
To come in both BEV and Hybrid versions.

Edited by AM222
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53 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

The "perfect" IMO product for the NA market would be something roughly the size of the Escape/Bronco Sport, gets about 300 miles of range and can be charged in about 15-20 minutes. I think that tech is less then 5 years away. 

 

Perfect Ford product for NA would be a F-150 Lightning with those range and charging time numbers. My Lightning is able to hit the range number but 15-20 minutes of fast charging usually nets less than 100 mi of range. Ford needs to bump up the charging power to 230 kW or higher.

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On 6/16/2024 at 3:06 PM, morgan20 said:

 

The customer base for aspirational cars continues to shrink, and number of automakers able do them well is also shrinking.

 

Other than V8 Mustangs, GT, and some low volume racing inspired cars like Focus RS and Escort RS Cosworth, nothing in Ford's coupe/sedan/hatch lineup in the past 30 years was aspirational. All of those except Mustang are gone. The only hope for Ford to compete in the aspirational car market is with more race car versions of Mustang like what they've done with Black Horse R and GTD.

Aspirational cars…. that's the key. Ford needs to produce cars that people desperately want to have for some reason, whether it's their style, their interior design, some technological feature or some innovative advancement. Now the new Lancia Ypsilon, from the Fiat family (Stellantis), is being launched in Europe. It is a compact hatchback based on others in the group (Peugeot 2008, Citroen C3), but with an exterior and interior design that attracts buyers looking for something different, innovative and elegant. I currently have a beautiful 2024 Mercedes-Benz CLA and, even though I love my car, I desperately want to buy that little Ypsilon! This is what a desirable car should be like... and Ford needs that. Some photos of the Lancia

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Edited by .I.
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1 minute ago, AM222 said:

This means an electric Escape with a 1000+ pound battery pack. You'll end up with something like a Mach E.  

Ford just needs to remember that outside the NA market, B-segment vehicles are very important, and they need a global subcompact ASAP. 

 

Long term, I don't think the Mach E has future as a standalone product because its acting as a compliance model for the EU. 

 

Once the new C class pure EV comes along in a few years, there really is no point in keeping the Mach E as it currently stands in production.

The Mach E could become the coupe style CUV along side whatever replaces the Escape and I'd guess eventually the Mustang would join it as a coupe. 

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17 minutes ago, .I. said:

Aspirational cars…. that's the key. Ford needs to produce cars that people desperately want to have for some reason, whether it's their style, their interior design, some technological feature or some innovative advancement. Now the new Lancia Ypsilon, from the Fiat family (Stellantis), is being launched in Europe. It is a compact hatchback based on others in the group (Peugeot 2008, Citroen C3), but with an exterior and interior design that attracts buyers looking for something different, innovative and elegant. I currently have a beautiful 2024 Mercedes-Benz CLA and, even though I love my car, I desperately want to buy that little Ypsilon! This is what a desirable car should be like... and Ford needs that. Some photos of the Lancia

IMG_1075.jpeg

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lol, that's far from elegant.  It looks ugly to me.

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10 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

lol, that's far from elegant.  It looks ugly to me.

I know the idea of “elegance” for the north American market buyer is a 3 ton F250 with a front end that resemble the Empire State Building facade…

 

Here, in Europe, the tastes are different 

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27 minutes ago, .I. said:

Ford needs to produce cars that people desperately want to have for some reason, whether it's their style, their interior design, some technological feature or some innovative advancement.

 

Ford does have aspirational products that people desperately want:

 

cq5dam.web.2160.2160.jpeg

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24_FRD_F15_BEV_53731.tif?croppathe=1_4x3

24_FRD_F15_62640.tif?croppathe=1_16x9&wi

_R7A2991_V3.tif?croppathe=1_4x3&wid=900

cq5dam.web.768.768.jpeg

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

 

off the 1970s called and they want their crushed blue velvet interior back and and that thing has a face only a mother could love 😛

 

You will see more velvet and others textiles to replace the leather in luxury cars in the near future.  Italy is setting the course.  This Lancia and the new Alfa Romeo Junior will be the trendsetters this year 

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Just now, morgan20 said:

 

Ford does have aspirational products that people desperately want:

 

cq5dam.web.2160.2160.jpeg

cq5dam.web.2160.2160.jpeg

24_FRD_F15_BEV_53731.tif?croppathe=1_4x3

24_FRD_F15_62640.tif?croppathe=1_16x9&wi

_R7A2991_V3.tif?croppathe=1_4x3&wid=900

cq5dam.web.768.768.jpeg

 

 

 

In the truck segment, Ford is the best. The Raptors and the Broncos are desiderables, of course.  But the thread is about sedans… and coupes  or hatch’s. 

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27 minutes ago, .I. said:

I know the idea of “elegance” for the north American market buyer is a 3 ton F250 with a front end that resemble the Empire State Building facade…

 

Here, in Europe, the tastes are different 

 

Lol.  Not sure what F250 has to do with anything.

 

I just don't consider a design with a mish-mash of styling cues that don't relate to one another elegant.

 

The black on the hood edge looks like a hood wind deflector, the bizarre unnecessary rectangles by the license plate, squared off rear design elements on an otherwise curvy vehicle, stuck on round taillight pods, etc.

 

Revival of Lancia starts in Europe with Ypsilon urban EVRevival of Lancia starts in Europe with Ypsilon urban EV

 

The body shape overall isn't bad for the segment, but I just don't like the detailing.....maybe it looks better in person?

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36 minutes ago, .I. said:

In the truck segment, Ford is the best. The Raptors and the Broncos are desiderables, of course.  But the thread is about sedans… and coupes  or hatch’s. 

 

Yea, the theme in the thread is that Ford hasn't produced a sedan that's aspirational or desirable for over 30 years. To your point, trucks and SUV is where Ford is the best. A few Ford coupes and hatchbacks, especially the racing oriented Mustangs, are also desirable.

 

The Ford CEO said he wants to invest in growing segments, and implied that Ford isn't going to repeat past mistakes.  

 

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