'24 November Sales

[ausrutherford]

4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

That was a joke.  Good point about high priced truck sales influencing a make's ATP.  Keep in mind GMC's average transaction price is just about even with Lincoln's, and I expect GMC to pass Lincoln as the Hummer sales increase.  And that includes 1000's of 4500 series cutaway chassis GMC unloads on Penske every year for next to nothing (no idea why they are not Chevy's).

 

Does Lincoln offer any product on a platform not shared with Ford?

 

 

 

 

Can you name me an Acura vehicle not platform shared with Honda or a Volvo vehicle not platform shared with one of Geely's other brands? An Audi vehicle not shared with VW Group?

[Sherminator98]

6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Does Lincoln offer any product on a platform not shared with Ford?

 

Every single luxury car make shares a platform with its lesser brand...

[morgan20]

6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Does Lincoln offer any product on a platform not shared with Ford?

 

Nah, not currently. Thinking back to when I worked at Ford & Visteon, the first two years of the Lincoln LS had no Ford platform mate. The third year, Ford Thunderbird shared a platform with LS

[Sherminator98]

4 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said:

OK, humor me. Exactly what statement(s) in the articles that were linked are "lies"?

 

HRG

 

 

Quote

The full quote — “There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics” — has been attributed to Mark Twain, who himself attributed it to British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli

 

[morgan20]

8 minutes ago, Sherminator98 said:

Every single luxury car make shares a platform with its lesser brand...

 

Lincoln and Infiniti are the only luxury car makes in the U.S. where every single model shares a platform with its lesser brand

[Sherminator98]

10 minutes ago, morgan20 said:

 

Lincoln and Infiniti are the only luxury car makes in the U.S. where every single model shares a platform with its lesser brand

 

But the vast majority of them do otherwise...not to mention NSX isn't being sold by Acura anymore so that doesn't count either. 

[akirby]

6 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said:

OK, humor me. Exactly what statement(s) in the articles that were linked are "lies"?

 

HRG

Saying the average Buick sells for less than the average Chevy when we all know Buick doesn’t have any $100k heavy duty pickups to distort the average.  It’s like saying Georgia has won more sec championships than Notre Dame.

[7Mary3]

3 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

 

Buick Enclave is a three-row crossover and is more in line in size to the Aviator. Enclave's starting price is $45,000. The starting price for the Aviator is $53,340. 

 

True, but if you option up an Enclave to the Avenir model it's a bit north of $59,000.  Take a look at one subjectively (when I take my Ford glasses off) it's right there with the $59,005 Reserve model.  Honestly the Buick's FWD/AWD platform is a bit of a plus in this type of CUV, Lincoln might do better replacing the current Aviator with a 3 row version of the Nautilus (also gets it off the Explorer platform, might help quality).  Anyway, Lincoln really needs a dedicated dealer network and some exclusive luxury vehicles or I don't see a bright future for them.  Honestly I leave near some of the most upscale neighborhoods in California and the only Lincolns I see these days are Navigators in livery service (and they are outnumbered 10-1 by Escalades and Yukon Denalis).  Yes, purely anecdotal, but Lincoln is conspicuously absent these days.  Lincoln never recovered from the disasterous PAG. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Sherminator98 said:

 

But the vast majority of them do otherwise...not to mention NSX isn't being sold by Acura anymore so that doesn't count either. 

And when it was sold it was a Honda everywhere else.

 

It would be stupid to have bespoke platforms just for the hell of it.  Especially when the base platform is really good to begin with.  What matters is the final product and not one of Lincoln’s vehicles are compromised because of the platform.

[akirby]

6 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

True, but if you option up an Enclave to the Avenir model it's a bit north of $59,000.  Take a look at one subjectively (when I take my Ford glasses off) it's right there with the $59,005 Reserve model.  Honestly the Buick's FWD/AWD platform is a bit of a plus in this type of CUV, Lincoln might do better replacing the current Aviator with a 3 row version of the Nautilus (also gets it off the Explorer platform, might help quality).  Anyway, Lincoln really needs a dedicated dealer network and some exclusive luxury vehicles or I don't see a bright future for them.  Honestly I leave near some of the most upscale neighborhoods in California and the only Lincolns I see these days are Navigators in livery service (and they are outnumbered 10-1 by Escalades and Yukon Denalis).  Yes, purely anecdotal, but Lincoln is conspicuously absent these days.  Lincoln never recovered from the disasterous PAG. 

You probably don’t see many Cadillacs either.  California is a different market.

 

Which new  Lincoln vehicle needs a bespoke platform and why?  Cadillac chasing bmw performance cars was a bust even though the cars were great.  

[morgan20]

32 minutes ago, akirby said:

Which new  Lincoln vehicle needs a bespoke platform and why?

 

Lincoln doesn't need a bespoke platform, but it does need at least 1 EV in its lineup. Ideally, any future Lincoln EV should stand out from Ford brand EV, that can still be done using common platforms.

 

Currently Lincoln and Infiniti are the only luxury car makes with no EV models at all

[7Mary3]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

You probably don’t see many Cadillacs either.  California is a different market.

 

Which new  Lincoln vehicle needs a bespoke platform and why?  Cadillac chasing bmw performance cars was a bust even though the cars were great.  

 

Actually seeing more Cadillacs these days.  The Lyric is selling well and the Escalade has always been popular.  XT-6's are out there, the cars not so much as you say but you will see a CT-5V (they are great) once in a while.  Having a good dealership on Wilshire Blvd. in Beverly Hills helps.  Closest 'Lincoln' dealership to Beverly Hills is Santa Monica Ford I guess.

 

O.K., maybe Lincoln doesn't need a vehicle based on an exclusive platform (can't see a business case for one at this point, that's for sure!) but it would be nice if the Lincolns didn't LOOK so much like dolled up Fords with big grilles (as in M-E-R-C-.....). 

 

Agreed on an EV for Lincoln.  As I said the Lyric is becoming at item.  Time is right, I think people might be getting tired of Teslas.   

Edited December 12, 2024 by 7Mary3

[HotRunrGuy]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Saying the average Buick sells for less than the average Chevy when we all know Buick doesn’t have any $100k heavy duty pickups to distort the average.  It’s like saying Georgia has won more sec championships than Notre Dame.

 

Again, you want to be a wordsmith and manipulate the result. As a BRAND, Buicks sell for a lower average price than Chevrolets. That is NOT a lie.

 

HRG

 

Edited December 12, 2024 by HotRunrGuy

[akirby]

8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

but it would be nice if the Lincolns didn't LOOK so much like dolled up Fords with big grilles (as in M-E-R-C-.....). 

 

Again - have you looked at a Lincoln lately?

[morgan20]

8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Agreed on an EV for Lincoln.  As I said the Lyric is becoming at item.  Time is right, I think people might be getting tired of Teslas. 

 

Yea, Teslas are ubiquitous. That could be a turn off for some luxury buyers. Cadillac Lyriq is getting real popular too. GM claims it's the best-selling luxury EV in the U.S., but that must exclude Teslas

 

[akirby]

The quote isn’t about lying, the quote is saying that you can use statistics to distort facts and draw invalid conclusions.

 

The implication is that Buicks are cheaper than Chevys, but if you compare a Buick vehicle with the same size and type of Chevy vehicle the Buick will be more expensive.  
 

Again it’s like saying Ohio State has never won a SEC championship.  Technically it’s true but they aren’t eligible to even compete for one.

[akirby]

1 minute ago, morgan20 said:

 

Yea, Teslas are ubiquitous. That could be a turn off for some luxury buyers. Cadillac Lyriq is getting real popular too. GM claims it's the best-selling luxury EV in the U.S., but that must exclude Teslas

 

 

 

 

Compare Teslas with other EVs from true luxury mfrs and it’s obvious they are not luxury vehicles.  

[rmc523]

11 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

True, but if you option up an Enclave to the Avenir model it's a bit north of $59,000.  Take a look at one subjectively (when I take my Ford glasses off) it's right there with the $59,005 Reserve model.  Honestly the Buick's FWD/AWD platform is a bit of a plus in this type of CUV, Lincoln might do better replacing the current Aviator with a 3 row version of the Nautilus (also gets it off the Explorer platform, might help quality).  Anyway, Lincoln really needs a dedicated dealer network and some exclusive luxury vehicles or I don't see a bright future for them.  Honestly I leave near some of the most upscale neighborhoods in California and the only Lincolns I see these days are Navigators in livery service (and they are outnumbered 10-1 by Escalades and Yukon Denalis).  Yes, purely anecdotal, but Lincoln is conspicuously absent these days.  Lincoln never recovered from the disasterous PAG. 

 

Ok?  Aviator goes up to upper 80s/low 90s now.

So it's supposed to be impressive that the top of the line Enclave does well against the base Aviator?

 

And you're criticizing the Lincolns for not using a premium platform, but when they do use a more premium RWD based platform, the company FWD platform would suddenly be better?

 

8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Actually seeing more Cadillacs these days.  The Lyric is selling well and the Escalade has always been popular.  XT-6's are out there, the cars not so much as you say but you will see a CT-5V (they are great) once in a while.  Having a good dealership on Wilshire Blvd. in Beverly Hills helps.  Closest 'Lincoln' dealership to Beverly Hills is Santa Monica Ford I guess.

 

O.K., maybe Lincoln doesn't need a vehicle based on an exclusive platform (can't see a business case for one at this point, that's for sure!) but it would be nice if the Lincolns didn't LOOK so much like dolled up Fords with big grilles (as in M-E-R-C-.....). 

 

Agreed on an EV for Lincoln.  As I said the Lyric is becoming at item.  Time is right, I think people might be getting tired of Teslas.   

 

Huh?  The Ford/Lincoln products haven't looked alike for at least 1-2 product cycles/roughly 10+ years?  The only one that retains that is Navigator, but that's standard practice for that segment.

[morgan20]

8 minutes ago, akirby said:

Compare Teslas with other EVs from true luxury mfrs and it’s obvious they are not luxury vehicles.  

 

Yea, Tesla vehicle interiors are el cheapo. I had a Hertz rental car Tesla Model 3 a couple years ago. Interior was very plain, not much more luxurious than my F-150 Lightning Pro.

 

Tesla fixed this in the refreshed Model 3 though, the interior in the new one is way better and feels like a real luxury car. Model Y still has an el cheapo interior, Cybertruck, Model X and Model S are OK but still on the el cheapo side, not up to Cadillac or Benz levels

Edited December 12, 2024 by morgan20

[grbeck]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

The quote isn’t about lying, the quote is saying that you can use statistics to distort facts and draw invalid conclusions.

 

The implication is that Buicks are cheaper than Chevys, but if you compare a Buick vehicle with the same size and type of Chevy vehicle the Buick will be more expensive.  
 

Again it’s like saying Ohio State has never won a SEC championship.  Technically it’s true but they aren’t eligible to even compete for one.

 

I remember looking at a Chevrolet Suburban at the Harrisburg Auto Show a few years ago and the sticker price was over $70,0000. And that was BEFORE the Pandemic and big run-up in prices we've experienced over the past few years. Buick had nothing comparable then, and still doesn't.

 

And then there is the Corvette...again, Buick has nothing comparable. Those high-price Chevrolets skew the figures when we compare the brands. 

 

I would say that the days of a Buick being more prestigious than a Chevrolet are long gone. It's not 1965 anymore. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by grbeck

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, morgan20 said:

Yea, Teslas are ubiquitous. That could be a turn off for some luxury buyers. Cadillac Lyriq is getting real popular too. GM claims it's the best-selling luxury EV in the U.S., but that must exclude Teslas

Since Tesla is reportedly about to introduce a $30k vehicle (with tax credit, or +/- $37.5k if credit is cancelled), it seems to me they don’t think of themselves as a luxury brand.  Maybe initially in days of Models S and X, but that was more to hide the cost penalty of building BEVs at that time.  Today Tesla is mostly about Models Y/3 which I agree are not luxury.  The upcoming model “Q” (as recently referred to in news) will be even cheaper, so definitely not luxury at all.  And I don’t mean that in a derogatory way.  Their models Y/3 sell more than all luxury BEVs combined as of last data I recall.  I know volume doesn’t necessarily correlate with profitability, but the main reason to build BEVs in the first place supports volume over luxury IMO.

[7Mary3]

12 hours ago, akirby said:

Again - have you looked at a Lincoln lately?

 

Actually not since the 2023 L.A. Auto Show.  Have they changed a lot since then?  I will admit the Lincolns had very nice interiors.

 

You know, even Genesis has a more extensive model lineup than Lincoln does these days.  And you won't find Genesis vehicles shoved into a corner of your local Hyundai store either.   

 

Lincoln has yet to fully recover from the PAG days when the marque was relegated to being not much more than fleet livery vehicles (Town Car and Navigator).  Jaguar and Aston-Martin got all the attention.  Remember when Mulullay wanted to drop Lincoln around 2014?  He later set the course for a Lincoln revival, but it seems 8 years later it hasn't made much progress. 

Edited December 13, 2024 by 7Mary3

[Biker16]

9 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Since Tesla is reportedly about to introduce a $30k vehicle (with tax credit, or +/- $37.5k if credit is cancelled), it seems to me they don’t think of themselves as a luxury brand.  Maybe initially in days of Models S and X, but that was more to hide the cost penalty of building BEVs at that time.  Today Tesla is mostly about Models Y/3 which I agree are not luxury.  The upcoming model “Q” (as recently referred to in news) will be even cheaper, so definitely not luxury at all.  And I don’t mean that in a derogatory way.  Their models Y/3 sell more than all luxury BEVs combined as of last data I recall.  I know volume doesn’t necessarily correlate with profitability, but the main reason to build BEVs in the first place supports volume over luxury IMO.

The Chevy Equinox is already selling for $34K before Tax credit. 

The 2026 Bolt EV is Due late next year, starting at 30k before Tax credit.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Chevy is heavily promoting their EVs too- Small town dealer near me in rural Minnesota is offering a $25 gift certificate for taking a test drive and has a bunch in stock- Even two Hummer TVs!

[Rick73]

3 hours ago, Biker16 said:

The Chevy Equinox is already selling for $34K before Tax credit. 

The 2026 Bolt EV is Due late next year, starting at 30k before Tax credit.

Thanks for information.  Starting at $34,995 is indeed a great price.  I wonder though if that’s profitable or if being subsidized by other GM business? 
 

Price is so low that it piqued my interest; motivating me to look up specs.  Car and Driver has review and reports all Equinox have same size battery, listed at 85 kWh.  Range at steady 75 MPH is 260 miles, which is also pretty good at that speed.  However, vehicle is heavy at near 5,000 pounds and uses a lot of electricity per mile.  Based on size and battery capacity, it’s hard to imagine GM can sell at $34,995 and still make a profit.  It’s possible though since battery should cost around $10k, and rest of vehicle is decontented versus 2024 per Car and Driver.

 

If that’s a profitable price for Equinox, imagine how low the new base Bolt replacement might be.