Ford NA Comments on Fiesta Diesel

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Actually the Prius does not get tax breaks in USA (tax credit runs out once a car maker has sold 60,000 vehicles) whereas for example the new VW diesel does.(Again each manufacturer is limited to 60,000 units sold before the rebates come to an end.)

 

 

Regarding the prices for things in the UK, find an on line source with UK average salaries and then compare to same job USA average salary.

 

I did a quick search and used travel agent as an example, but used Canada as my comparison to UK

In Canada a travel agent trainee will have a starting annual salary of around $18,000, whereas in the UK it is $42,000.00. Amounts I have listed in my example are Canadian $.

 

Your right but then most of what we earn is taken away from us in tax, our fuel prices are cheaper than yours in the US its only the massive tax that bumps the prices up so the government can waste it on whatever they want elsewhere.

 

UK is only second to Mexico in the world with amounts of professionals that escape and are now leaving its borders.

 

Daily Telegraph reports....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/157...n-50-years.html

No other nation is losing so many qualified people, it points out. Britain has now lost more than one in 10 of its most skilled citizens, while overall only Mexico has had more people emigrate.

 

Record numbers of Britons are leaving - many of them doctors, teachers and engineers - in the biggest exodus for almost 50 years.

 

There are now 3.247 million British-born people living abroad, of whom more than 1.1 million are highly-skilled university graduates, say the researchers.

 

The report is a statistical analysis which does not study the motivation for leaving Britain. However, high house prices and taxes and poor climate are frequently cited.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds

[MarkFive]

Still legislation is not cast in stone in the US things to change, and if it does change favour diesel one day you find you using 30% less Arab oil which would help the US trade deficit and leave more money in your pockets to to spend in the US economy rather than lining the pockets of some Saudi-Oil Sheik.

 

Gas consumption is also lining the pockets of Hugo Chavez. He's off in China buying fighter jets with all the money oil purchasing is sending his way.

[V8 Ford]

"But a Ford dealer smells opportunity after hearing even his parts department counter staff talking about the diesel Fiesta. His conclusion: "The demand appears to be there."

 

One writer says he will be back in the market by 2010 or 2011 and a diesel VW is the current front-runner. "I would love to have more to choose from.""

 

Don't listen to those pesky consumers Ford!

They can say whatever they want. They've got nothing to do with the engineering and financial realities of designing and producing that car for the US market. In addition, they make this assessment based on the wrong assumption that the car will deiliver 65MPG under US standards; the other Euro deisel transplants lose 10-25% of their highway fuel economy between US and EU models.

 

Unless Ford decides to bring the Econetic diesels to the US, I presume that they can't make a business case for them. They have no incentive to prevent sales of a car that will boost CAFE numbers, sell as well as everyone says it would and make money. Until anyone else sells a B car diesel in the US, my skepticism will only be reinforced.

Edited September 24, 2008 by V8 Ford

[Edstock]

Gas consumption is also lining the pockets of Hugo Chavez. He's off in China buying fighter jets with all the money oil purchasing is sending his way.

You get what you pay for. My guess is he didn't want to spend what it takes for the latest MiG's or Sukhois from Russia, or the Gripen from Sweden.

[StevenCaylor]

Here's an idea. The new Jetta 2.0L diesel with an automatic is rated here in the US at 29 and 40. What is the same European car rated at? Let's compare apples to apples.

[V8 Ford]

You get what you pay for. My guess is he didn't want to spend what it takes for the latest MiG's or Sukhois from Russia, or the Gripen from Sweden.

I know Venezuela recently got a batch of Su-30s. It's news to me if they're also buying chinese fighters, as I didn't know the J-10 was for export (although it wouldn't surprise me).

Edited September 24, 2008 by V8 Ford

[Edstock]

Thanks. Didn't know about the J-10.

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/report...an-syria-04091/

 

The Chinese J-10 is based on plans sold by the Israelis in the 1980s, after their Lavi fighter program had been canceled. The massacre at Tiananmen Square ended cooperation with western aerospace firms, however, forcing China to install Russian AL-31FN engines instead of American F100/F110s. This in turn forced a slew of alternations owing to changes to the aircraft’s new inlet requirements, weight distribution, center of gravity, et. al. Russian avionics with their own set of space requirements also had to be installed and tested to replace American/Israeli equipment, which led to further design changes. Then there were the indigenous Chinese efforts, including the Type 1473 pulse-Doppler (PD) fire-control radar to replace Israel’s Elta or the American APG-68. The end result entered service in 2003 after well over a decade in development, and is a rather different aircraft than the Lavi. Nonetheless, it retains the aircraft’s canard-delta layout and some of its capabilities, and its aerodynamic layout and known/reported characteristics suggest an aircraft that is equal or slightly superior to American F-16 C/Ds. This could complicate Israeli strikes on targets related to Iran’s nuclear program, though many other variables would also come into play for such scenarios.

[MarkFive]

I know Venezuela recently got a batch of Su-30s. It's news to me if they're also buying chinese fighters, as I didn't know the J-10 was for export (although it wouldn't surprise me).

 

He seems to be buying weapons specifically to piss off the U.S.

 

There are joint Russian/Venezuelan sea exercises coming up. When I hear that I picture a rusty aircraft carrier next to a tug boat although I think Venezuela has submarines now.

[jpd80]

Here's an idea. The new Jetta 2.0L diesel with an automatic is rated here in the US at 29 and 40. What is the same European car rated at? Let's compare apples to apples.

The figures are here, mpg is in UK gallons (4.55 litres), I think your gallon is 3.78 litres.

 

LINK

[LSFan00]

By the way, a new article about how the "impractically expensive to produce/sell here" Jetta trounced the Prius;

 

C&D: Jetta Tops Prius in Marathon Test

 

Results (238 Highway Miles)

Jetta: 45.4 MPG /// Prius: 44.8 MPG

Since the Prius so handily whipped the Jetta in the city, we were hoping the highway portion might provide a closer test result. And over the exact same route at the exact same speeds and under the same conditions, it appears America has a surprising new fuel-economy champ.

 

 

The Bottom Line

It appears clear, no matter what the driving conditions, that the Toyota Prius will return around 44 mpg—if driven with a sane right foot. That's impressive, and that means the Prius remains the most fuel-efficient car on the market. The Jetta falls short in pure city driving, but it does meet (and barely beats) the Prius when it comes to highway fuel economy in our testing.

 

The price of fuel, of course, remains a big factor. On our test days, regular unleaded was $3.79 a gallon and diesel was $4.09. So on the city drive, which approximated a week's worth of stop-and-go commuting, the Jetta required about $10 more fuel to do the same job. Over a year, that would equate to about $500 if fuel prices stabilize. Granted, that's a big "if," and 500 bucks ain't nothing with an economy like ours. But the Jetta is eligible for a $1300 "Advanced Lean Burn Technology Motor Vehicle Federal income tax credit," and $1300 buys a lot of diesel. Looked at another way, $1300 reduces the Jetta TDi's $22,640 base price to $21,340 if you include the destination charge. The base price of the 2008 Toyota Prius, by comparison, is $22,660. So on those terms, the Prius becomes $1320 more expensive than the new Jetta. Surprisingly enough, the Prius is not eligible for this tax credit, although Toyota may be gearing up for that fight.

 

But tax credits aside, when it comes down to which of these two popular efficient cars is more fun and more comfortable to drive everyday, it's an easy pick: We like the Jetta TDi, and the fuel-economy numbers in the real world for VW's new player make it—gasp!—a legit Prius fighter.

 

Multiply this type of positive press by 100 fold when the Accord hits. How much is going to be spent marketing the new Fiesta?

[Extreme4x4]

That article is crap, since they do not give actual numbers for a city only cycle. The city cycle is where the hybrid excells............... the highway cycle is where a diesel will excel.

 

Thus, much as all articles do, they started with a premise............. that they liked diesel better than hybrid............... and "proved" why.

 

They say the Jetta falls short in city driving, but do not give actual numbers............. so that people can make intelligent choices.

 

I think you meant to say when the Acura hits............... right??

Edited September 25, 2008 by Extreme4x4

[Harley Lover]

That article is crap, since they do not give actual numbers for a city only cycle.

 

Actually, there's a whole section about the city cycle. The results: Prius: 44.7 mpg /// Jetta: 32 mpg

Not sure this supports the premise that the Jetta trounced the Prius.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Harley Lover

[mlhm5]

Detroit just got a $25 billion bailout and the money has to be used this way:

 

"...money can only be used to overhaul plants that are at least 20 years old and will be upgraded to make vehicles that offer about a 25% improvement in fuel economy over similar models in their class."

 

Ford could build the Fiesta diesel or a Prius clone in a USA plant that the government is paying to upgrade and retool?

[LSFan00]

That article is crap, since they do not give actual numbers for a city only cycle. The city cycle is where the hybrid excells............... the highway cycle is where a diesel will excel.

 

Maybe we need a special board where the computer talks back to the Ford enthusiasts, so they don't have to read and comprehend written communications on the board;

 

We expected the Prius to dominate our city test, and it did. After all, the hybrid powertrain meant that every time we hit a red light or traffic snarl, the Prius would sit silently—burning absolutely no fuel. But the Prius's overall 44.7-mpg count is still about 3 mpg less than the EPA city figure of 48. And, interestingly, the Jetta TDi's 32 mpg are exactly four mpg more than its EPA city rating. Still, it's clear that in city-only driving the Prius has no equal—except perhaps a motorcycle. On the open road? Well that's a very different story.

 

Since the Prius so handily whipped the Jetta in the city, we were hoping the highway portion might provide a closer test result. And over the exact same route at the exact same speeds and under the same conditions, it appears America has a surprising new fuel-economy champ.

 

The Bottom Line

It appears clear, no matter what the driving conditions, that the Toyota Prius will return around 44 mpg—if driven with a sane right foot. That's impressive, and that means the Prius remains the most fuel-efficient car on the market. The Jetta falls short in pure city driving, but it does meet (and barely beats) the Prius when it comes to highway fuel economy in our testing.

[P71_CrownVic]

By the way, a new article about how the "impractically expensive to produce/sell here" Jetta trounced the Prius;

 

C&D: Jetta Tops Prius in Marathon Test

 

 

 

Multiply this type of positive press by 100 fold when the Accord hits. How much is going to be spent marketing the new Fiesta?

 

I hope you are not surprised that an article that does not fit with "the agenda" is getting torn apart.

 

What does Car and Driver know...they just drive and test cars for a living. What are their credentials.

(that last part was sarcasm)

[P71_CrownVic]

Detroit just got a $25 billion bailout and the money has to be used this way:

 

That 25 BILLION bail out is a complete joke. What a complete waste of money.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

The city cycle is where the hybrid excells............... the highway cycle is where a diesel will excel.

 

Fiesta returns 63.5 US MPG for the city cycle what sort of MPG does the Prius return in the US?

 

 

Detroit just got a $25 billion bailout and the money has to be used this way:

 

"make vehicles that offer about a 25% improvement in fuel economy over similar models in their class."

 

How many Fords are there at the moment that are 25% more fuel efficient over similar models in their class - None.

So Ford will be entitled to sweet nothing unless they offer something like a Diesel Fiesta that is 30% more fuel efficient than the same non-hybrid in its class.

 

Your right if Ford made a hybrid Econetic Fiesta it's current 73.5 US MPG on the highway and 63.5 in town would be greatly improved and nearly 50% better than a Prius. Ford could build it in Detroit and would be entitled to Government help to set up production.

[rmc523]

Ford can bring a Fiesta ECOnetic into the NA market very easy. When production begins in Mexico's Culculitan assembly plant of the new Fiesta, I would suggest importing between 5K-10K of the diesel motor from Dagenham for installation into a NA Fiesta as a "trial balloon" to see if it indeed would sell here. If all goes well and it does sell, Ford already has a diesel engine plant in Mexico that could start manufacture of this motor on this continent for use in future Fiesta and Focus models.

 

This is far less expensive than importing the entire car from the UK.

 

And yes, I know that the UK ECOnetic is a Focus, but if Ford is really serious, then it should roll out a Fiesta version 1st.....

 

Would the ECOnetic (diesel) Fiesta even pass US emissions standards?

[V8 Ford]

How many Fords are there at the moment that are 25% more fuel efficient over similar models in their class - None.

So Ford will be entitled to sweet nothing unless they offer something like a Diesel Fiesta that is 30% more fuel efficient than the same non-hybrid in its class.

Hybrid Escape is 39% more fuel efficient than its I4 couterpart.

A 35MPG combined Fusion hybrid (2010) would be over 40% more efficient than a comparable I4 midsize car

Ford claims ecoboost engines will be 20% more fuel efficient and plans to build them in large numbers. They’ll be here shortly.

 

As I stated before, diesels aren't here and they're not coming in widespread applications because they aren't a viable option at the moment. Ford says that diesels are a part of its fuel economy strategy, but not in the short term. Plug in Hybrids are in the same time-frame in Ford's energy strategy. They're out farther because technology limits they're viability. In 5 years or so, fuel prices and technology will determine whether they make it to production in the US. It just won't happen now.

Edited September 26, 2008 by V8 Ford

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Would the ECOnetic (diesel) Fiesta even pass US emissions standards?

 

Ford are NO CAN DO

 

Volkswagon are CAN DO

 

So l would doubt it very much, but the whole of the US financial system banks etc preachs the virtues free market and let the bad and weak go to the wall and only the strongest are entitled to survive, but soon as it all goes wrong they start crying and scramble for a soviet style nationlised rescue to bail out, if you had predicted this over a year ago folk would have put you down laughed at you.

 

So as the peak oil curve starts rocket downwards in the near future as demand soars in places like China and India you will find the supplies won't match world demand although there is the oil down their its getting harder and harder to extract when this happens oil prices will sky rocket, l think the US will follow the rest of the world and change its emmisions rules on diesels when it happens just like the financial world in the US has just bent all the capitalist rule books you can see it coming, the first bad winter we get will cause blackouts everywhere and sent oil price skyrocketing we could start to it happening as early as this year if the winter is bad.

 

BACK TO THE DARK AGES

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10...uts-winter.html

 

 

You are a bit backward and behind the rest of world when it comes to diesel cars and you are big hypocrits if you allow diesel trucks your No1 vehicle of choice in the US that nobody buys or uses them in Europe, a big diesel pick-up will to chuck out 10 times more NOX than a Fiesta ever will your laws are an arse.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds

[jpd80]

Meeting Tier 2 Bin 5 diesel emission regulations:

- Euro 5, the particulate matter is now OK but the NOx levels need to reduce by 65%.

- Car companies are well advanced on systems to achieve this without Urea injection

- Europeans realised this and deferred stricter NOx emissions until technology catches up.

 

The US should permit small efficient diesels where outstanding fuel consumption is evident

Edited September 26, 2008 by jpd80

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Meeting Tier 2 Bin 5 diesel emission regulations:

- Euro 5, the particulate matter is now OK but the NOx levels need to reduce by 65%.

- Car companies are well advanced on systems to achieve this without Urea injection

- Europeans realised this and deferred stricter NOx emissions until technology catches up.

 

The US should permit small efficient diesels where outstanding fuel consumption is evident

 

Honda and Toyota are liked in the US because they prodoce reliable fuel efficient cars in Europe these same cars are seen as gas guzzlers diesel are more more fuel efficient cost the same to buy and are more fuel efficient thats why Toyota and Honda don't do all that well here they are not needed.

 

If the US ever did permit diesels Toyota and Honda's sales would be hit for six and hurt them right where it hurts at middle stump but diesel cars are just as alien as cricket is to them they just don't get it.

 

Good question to ask why does Toyota and Honda not have a single car in Europes top 10 which is just a bigger market as the US?

 

DIESEL

 

Diesel cars US rules say no

Diesel Pick-Ups the US rulebook say we love the bigger sniff off diesel fumes.

 

RULES ARE MADE TO BE BROKEN

Edited September 26, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds

[lfeg]

You know, I would like to see the numbers one of those Ford eurodiesels would post on the US EPA city and highway cycles. The Euro cycle tests and EPA cycle tests are quite a bit different. I suspect that the results would be about the same as VW had with the Jetta TDi. As to emissions, we should not lower standards just to suit some engines. The only way to get superior products is to hold everyone's feet to the same fire.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

You know, I would like to see the numbers one of those Ford eurodiesels would post on the US EPA city and highway cycles. The Euro cycle tests and EPA cycle tests are quite a bit different. I suspect that the results would be about the same as VW had with the Jetta TDi. As to emissions, we should not lower standards just to suit some engines. The only way to get superior products is to hold everyone's feet to the same fire.

 

I Don't know which Jetta model you are talking about there are several diesel engines

not sure which Jetta model you are talking about or what it has to do with a Fiesta and its 73.5 US MPG?

 

Jetta 3 Models

http://www.whatcar.com/car-comparison.aspx...7&ED3=48513

Volkswagen Jetta Saloon 1.9 TDI BlueMotion DPF 4dr

Town - 47.9 UK MPG (39.8 US MPG)

Out of town - 72.4 UK MPG (60.2 US MPG)

Combined/Average - 64.1 UK MPG (53.3 US MPG)

 

Volkswagen Jetta Saloon 2.0 TFSI Sport 4dr

Town - 25.7 UK MPG (21.3 US MPG)

Out of town - 45.6 UK MPG (37.9 US MPG)

Combined/Average - 35.3 MPG (29.3 US MPG)

 

Volkswagen Jetta Saloon 1.9 TDI SE 4dr

Town - 42.2 MPG (35.1 US MPG)

Out of town - 64.2 MPG (53.4 US MPG)

Combined/Average 54.3 MPG (45.2 US MPG)

 

UK MPG TO US MPG Converter

http://www.markporthouse.net/rangie/fuelco...nconversion.htm#

[akirby]

I Don't know which Jetta model you are talking about there are several diesel engines

not sure which Jetta model you are talking about or what it has to do with a Fiesta and its 73.5 US MPG?

 

It won't get 73.5 US MPG using the EPA test methods.