Diesels....really worth it?

[silvrsvt]

I see the drumbeat of how Ford and other should offer diesel engines in their cars etc...so I did some research on the VW Golf, which comes with both engines.

 

Anyways heres what I found:

 

Golf Diesel:

30/42 MPG

Annual fuel cost (via EPA's website, figured at 20K miles a year and $3.75 a gallon for Diesel) $2076

Price (via KBB.com, MSRP, no options figured in) $25,151

 

Golf Auto with Gas

24/31 MPG

Annual fuel cost (via EPA's website, figured at 20K miles a year and $3.25 a gallon for Benzine, err Gas) $2407

Price (via KBB.com, MSRP no options figured in) $19,468

 

So for nearly $5700 more up front, you get to pay $393 bucks less a YEAR for fuel...so its going to take you nearly 15 years of driving that car to "break even" on fuel costs alone...driving 20K miles a year.

 

Given that Diesel is $.50 or so a gallon more then 87 octane Regular, I don't forsee Diesel engines winning over people...

[fordmantpw]

Question...does the diesel come with more standard features? That could make a difference, and is similar to what folks were seeing with the EB Flex when it first came out.

[John E]

Diesel is a mixed bag. The inherent fuel flexibility is great (Rudolph Diesel ran his first prototypes on peanut oil, essentially biodiesel), as is the fuel efficiency, but particulate emissions are problematic. In addition to the direct traditional air pollution public health concerns, if global warming is indeed caused more by carbon nanoparticles interacting wih the grand-daddy of all greenhouse gases, water vapor, than by CO2 emissions, switching from gasoline to diesel may be precisely what we do NOT want to do.

Edited February 28, 2011 by John E

[Harley Lover]

particulate emissions are problematic.

All the current diesels are using urea and DEF's to address this issue. The biggest downside is the technology causes a hit on fuel effieciency.

[OX1]

Any difference in resale value. Can't ignore it if there is.

[Hydro]

don't forget to factor in more expensive and more frequent maintenence. Plus, the topping of DEF at $4 gallon.

[jpd80]

Golf Diesel:

30/42 MPG

 

Golf Auto with Gas:

24/31 MPG

 

2012 Focus 2.0 DI:

28/40 MPG

[Hydro]

Golf Diesel:

30/42 MPG

 

Golf Auto with Gas:

24/31 MPG

 

2012 Focus 2.0 DI:

28/40 MPG

Nuff said, the focus is the CLEAR winner here. :happy feet:

 

Even with the diesel getting 24 more miles per tank. As of todays cost in my area ($3.59 for 87 octane and $3.99 diesel) the VW will still cost $4.80 more to fill up (12 gal), making the cost of diesel even worse.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Hydro

[dante hicks]

According to gasbuddy.com, diesel is running about 32 cents more than regular around me. If I recall, during the last gas crisis, diesel prices didn't spike like gas prices did -- during the height, I think prices were about equal.

[RangerM]

Around here (Raleigh, NC), one of the biggest pains is finding a diesel pump that's suitable for cars. There are enough, but they aren't as prevalent.

 

Get out on the highway, and the "Auto" diesel pumps can become more difficult because there's usually no more than one pump, and they're often paired with a gas pump that's already taken.

 

I've had several diesel pickups for my business (for towing purposes), and when they're working they're great. When they're giving trouble (which most have--Duramax fuel injectors), they are very expensive to fix. Hell, a fuel filter change (every 15,000 miles) is a $100+ proposition. A car might be cheaper, but at this point I wouldn't own a (personal) diesel car. For me, the advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages.

Edited March 1, 2011 by RangerM

[jpd80]

Nuff said, the focus is the CLEAR winner here. :happy feet:

 

Even with the diesel getting 24 more miles per tank. As of todays cost in my area ($3.59 for 87 octane and $3.99 diesel) the VW will still cost $4.80 more to fill up (12 gal), making the cost of diesel even worse.

Now Imagine 1.6 EB or even 1.4 EB with 150 hp/150 lb ft and 32/44 mpg,

fuel efficient gas engines will make small car buyers forget all about diesels.

[FordBuyer]

Isn't a diesel more durable and long lasting? For those who like to keep their vehicle a long time and put lots of miles on it, I believe the service life is around 375,000 miles while gas V6 is about 225,000 miles with I4 even less in most cases. Not sure how that would be factored in, but relevant. And in Europe,most turbo diesels are faster than gas counterparts. But yeah, it there was big market for turbo diesels in America, they would be here already.

[Harley Lover]

Isn't a diesel more durable and long lasting? For those who like to keep their vehicle a long time and put lots of miles on it, I believe the service life is around 375,000 miles while gas V6 is about 225,000 miles with I4 even less in most cases. Not sure how that would be factored in, but relevant. And in Europe,most turbo diesels are faster than gas counterparts. But yeah, it there was big market for turbo diesels in America, they would be here already.

 

The older diesels were indeed longer lasting. The new generation with DPF/urea might not be any better than their gas counterparts. The technology applied for emission compliance has not improved longevity, that's for sure.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Harley Lover

[Summer Cruiser]

Around here (Detroit), diesels do tend to have a higher resale value. I also seem to remember that diesels tend to get better fuel econ than their window sticker alluded to, but I do not remember if that changed much with the changed testing standards.

[lfeg]

A diesel might last longer than a gas engine, but it depends on how it is built. Just beacuse a Cat 3406 or Cummins 350 Big Cam IV can go a million miles does not mean a diesel built for a car will last longer. Build a gas engine to the same standards of a Cat 3406, and it will last as long as the 3406, if not longer.

 

And long term, diesel will continue to be more expensive than gasoline. They both are highly refined products (diesel never was a residual fuel as some will tell you, they just get diesel confused with No 6 fuel oil and Bunker C). Diesel is denser (weighs more per gallon) and contains more energy per gallon, so as demand for petroleum fuels increases worldwide, prcing will relate to energy content.

 

Nothing wrong with diesel engines, but when looking at the combination of emissions, fuel, operation, and maintenance the value equation for the average car buyer in the US will tip toward gasoline. We do not have a tax structure here as they have in Europe where they "adjusted" fuel taxes to foster diesel development. If they applied equal taxes to gasoline and diesel, you would see fewer diesels there also.

[Hydro]

Isn't a diesel more durable and long lasting? For those who like to keep their vehicle a long time and put lots of miles on it, I believe the service life is around 375,000 miles while gas V6 is about 225,000 miles with I4 even less in most cases. Not sure how that would be factored in, but relevant. And in Europe,most turbo diesels are faster than gas counterparts. But yeah, it there was big market for turbo diesels in America, they would be here already.

The engine may last longer with the car version (i really don't know), but modern diesels are kinda like hybrids. There are expensive parts that will wear out faster than the engine. mainly the DPF (diesel particulate filter). It has a shelf life of 100-150,000 miles aparently. On the Superduty it cost $3,000 to replace. I'm sure it's less for a car, but I can forsee DPF thefts in the future if diesels catch on. Also, in Ca and many other states diesels are required for smog testing. They do not get a 5 year grace period either. So, figure in $60 or so every other year. It's small, but still an added cost.

 

Dante Hicks, the diesel prices went higher than gasoline for So Cal a few years back and they are doing the same right now. A major reason I got rid of my 6.4L Superduty. Diesel is actually $4.30 in many stations . I chose the cheapest one down by the Long Beach port just to be fair. Most inner city stations diesel is OVER 50 cents more a gallon.

[aneekr]

Question...does the diesel come with more standard features? That could make a difference, and is similar to what folks were seeing with the EB Flex when it first came out.

Yes. The Golf TDI comes standard with 17" alloy wheels, sport suspension, foglamps, center console, bluetooth HFP & audio, leather wrapped steering wheel with multifunction controls, heated seats, Premium VIII (touchscreen) headunit, Sirus satellite radio, and some other assorted odds and ends that are either optional or not available on the 2.5L gasoline powered Golf

[rkisler]

Isn't a diesel more durable and long lasting? For those who like to keep their vehicle a long time and put lots of miles on it, I believe the service life is around 375,000 miles while gas V6 is about 225,000 miles with I4 even less in most cases. Not sure how that would be factored in, but relevant. And in Europe,most turbo diesels are faster than gas counterparts. But yeah, it there was big market for turbo diesels in America, they would be here already.

I'm not sure there is any compelling evidence that diesels are more durable in passenger car applications, but I do agree that the perception exists, particularly amongst diesel fanatics.

 

The primary use of diesels up to now has been in commercial fleets. To keep costs low, fleets keep their vehicles longer and maintain accordingly, rather than buy new all the time like retail buyers. I think these fleets are most likely the basis for "legendary" diesel durability.

 

Just from a logic standpoint, I don't see any reason that diesels would be any longer-lasting than a gasoline engine. Let's do as much of an apples-to-apples comparison with gasoline using an EcoBoost:

 

1. It is true that the basic engine components in the diesel (block, head, crank, pistons) are heavier duty, but they have to be because the forces are higher due to longer stroke and higher energy content of diesel fuel. I doubt that the engineers design in a larger safety margin on forces for a diesel than they do gasoline, so let's call it even or maybe a slight advantage to diesel?

 

2. Both the diesel and the EcoBoost have a turbo. Funny how the general opinion seems to be that diesels are long-lived, but some are worried about the complexity of EcoBoost. Let's call it even.

 

3. Diesel fuel is more problematic than gasoline; larger fuel filters, jelling at low temperatures, etc. Slight advantage gasoline.

 

4. The diesel fuel injection system is at a much higher pressure than a gasoline DI. Slight advantage gasoline.

 

5. If the diesel can get by without urea injection (like the 2.0l VW), then the downstream system durability is still probably not as good as gasoline due to the addition of a particulate filter. Advantage gasoline.

 

6. If the diesel uses urea injection, then maintenance costs are higher, and you have additional complexity that could result in durability issues. Advantage gasoline.

 

Unless my logic is faulty, I'm not seeing any real durability advantage to diesel vs. gasoline in a passenger car application; in fact it looks like gasoline would have an advantage. Of course when the diesel is installed in cars that hold their value well (VW diesels do very well despite the overall crappy VW car quality) or expensive cars (BMW, Mercedes), then there might be tendency for these cars to stay on the road longer and rack up more miles before they are finally declared "worthless" and hit the scrap yard.

 

theoldwizard is a diesel fan and ex-powertrain engineering; if he's lurking, maybe he can comment.

[silvrsvt]

Did some more checking and using Truedelta, the price difference is still about $2900 with options figured in.

[ulev1st]

I don't get the diesel CAR thing being that great...however with a large payload...sometimes a diesel truck is the only way to go.

[p38fln]

The Ecoboost is very similar to a diesel - watch the teardown video from the F-150 Ecoboost teardown, he points out a lot of parts where the design is copied from the Powerstroke engine.

 

I can't imagine why anyone would want to buy a diesel if there was a gas engine available for the same vehicle - all the new emissions controls pretty much killed off any fuel advantage the diesels had, and waht little advantage they do still have gets killed off by having to buy Urea to pour into the muffler, along with mandatory required service on the DPF filter every X miles to clean what the regeneration didn't clean.

 

The gas engine should me much simpler to maintain.

Edited March 2, 2011 by p38fln

[jpd80]

It wouldn't surprise me if Ford revisited the "Bobcat" development program at a later date. Think of it as an extension of Ecoboost where a second tank is filled with E85 and used to suppress detonation whilst producing incredible torque and power. The bottom end needs to be diesel so maybe the 2.7/3.0 V6 Lion diesel is a candidate...

 

Does a possible 400 hp / 400 lb ft from 3.0 liters get your blood pumping?

[goinbroke2]

So now that we've heard from all the non-diesel drivers and uninformed speculators......

 

Yes my 7.3 IDI is "old school" and doesn't have the newer emission crap on it. What it DOES have is 656,000km's and has never been apart. Second tranny, body is pretty shot, suspension work, etc....but the rattling old 7.3 still gives 25mpg when going 100kmph and about 23 when fully loaded/squating down at 100 kmph. Once I bought my first diesel (85 6.9 4spd 19mpg) I swore I would never own another gasser truck.

 

Here's my list of "must haves".

1) since getting a 4 door, I'll never own a regular cab again.

2) since getting a diesel, I'll never own a gasser again.

3) since getting a one ton, I'll never own a 1/2 ton again.

 

Yes I can burn diesel/furnace oil/veggie oil/used eng oil cut with gas/you name it.

 

Yes diesels are built stronger than gas engines. Not only are cranks etc forged instead of cast, but there are timing GEARS instead of chains/belts as but one example of how longevity is BUILT IN. You have a roller cam in a gasser? Diesels have had them for DECADES. As far as filter changes/amount of oil/etc, yes diesels are more expensive. The same as having a big engine takes more oil/bigger filter than a small engine.

Would you list, as a drawback to a bigblock, that is has a bigger filter and holds more oil than a 4 cyl? Of course not!

 

Recently (3 weekends ago) I loaded the 4 wheelers/wife/kids/dog/etc and went to the cottage. Filled up before I left and drove in a snow storm for 2 1/2hr's and when we got there the driveway was still blocked. The father in law's 4x4 plow truck couldn't shove the 4ft of snow back. so I dropped off the wife and youngest one at the inlaws and went back over to unload the freezable stuff walking through waist high snow. By the time a buddy with a tractor and snowblower showed up/blew snow/we finished unloading, the truck (up to this point never shut off) had been running for just over 6 hours. About 3 1/2 of it idling with the heater on so we could jump in and warm up. It took 1/4 tank to get there and another 1/8-1/4 to idle/drive around the lake. how much fuel would a gasser have burned? A HELL OF A LOT MORE!

 

November, doing road maint at the cottage; About 30 people on the lake were out to trim back brush that grew in on the road. 3 of us were hauling the brush to a place to burn it. My diesel, a f-150 and a chev 1500. started about 8am. we were all filled up. I hauled until 8pm that night and used around 1/2 tank of fuel. the chev had to go fill up around 1pm and the f-150 soon afterwords. the chev left at 5 and the f-150 who was still working filled up again at 7pm and came back and stopped hauling. I never thought of it until one guy commented he "went through about $70 in fuel today". My jaw dropped, I never even switched tanks yet!

 

In light applications obviously this are not equal. But to say gassers get the same milage/just as strong/last as long as diesels is just wrong. Yes a dpf can go bad...the same as a catyletic converter can plug etc. But ring seal, valvetrain wear etc in the long block? Not even close. Oh, so you lost a inj pump? Yup that sucks, and was expensive too. And gassers never have big dollar problems? forgot to change the cam belt at 80,000km's and bent valves for example, etc?

 

C'mon, for anyone who actually uses one and doesn't just read about one on the internet, diesels are the way to go. (We currently have a fleet of around 300 trucks of all makes, gassers and diesels) The diesel are still running, most being 02-04's. The gassers are replaced in 3-4 year cycles as they are way more expensive to upkeep when they get older.

[silvrsvt]

C'mon, for anyone who actually uses one and doesn't just read about one on the internet, diesels are the way to go. (We currently have a fleet of around 300 trucks of all makes, gassers and diesels) The diesel are still running, most being 02-04's. The gassers are replaced in 3-4 year cycles as they are way more expensive to upkeep when they get older.

 

Your missing my point, I never said that diesels didn't have an application in trucks...I was speaking about light duty applications like cars

[Summer Cruiser]

I think diesels have an application in cars as well. Yes, emissions equipment takes away some of the fuel economy benefits, but there still are benefits. The costs of building an EB engine are a bit closer to those of a diesel - turbo, high-pressure fuel system, etc... than the 2.0L Focus engine. They have similar design.

 

I cannot remember who on the previous page keeps touting 1.0 and 1.4 EB numbers which are pretty impressive. That's fine and dandy, but compare them to a 1.6L diesel, not a 2.0L. How do they stack up at that point.

 

But lets also consider where diesels may shine, maybe not fiestas or even Focus', but put a diesel in the Explorer or Escape or a Taurus and they would probably sell like hotcakes. They have plenty of torque which would make those moderately larger vehicles very happy.