Ford Flex Successor

[BORG]

Ford dropped the Freestar believing that minivan is a declining segment and the Flex would better fill those shoes and would capitalize on the crowing CUV market. Although critically acclaimed, the Flex is arguably a sales disappointment for Ford and is nowhere near minivan marketshare and probably not attracting many of those customers. However, the minivan market is still large and key domestic competitors (Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chrysler) continue to invest heavily into the segment and eating up those customers for Ford, a segment for which Ford apparently offers no convincing alternative.

 

So if the Flex we know today is not cutting it and the Explorer is now the 7-Seater Crossover king of the hour, should Flex be moved to a classic minivan setup? Is it even possible for Ford to utilize the D3/D4 chassis in a minivan? Maybe the real hang-up is chassis utilization needed to make a minivan a worthwhile investment?

 

Either way, I think it's time Ford took back a segment they have been forfeiting too willingly.

[ds91776]

I couldn't agree more. Now, I LOVE the Flex and I can't understand why it hasn't been more successful. But anyway...

I personally know several people who are in their late 20s-30s and are starting to have families. They know that I am knowledgeable about cars and they have asked me about minivans. They have also heard how awesome Ford has become and bemoan the fact that Ford no longer offers one. They don't want a Crossover or SUV ( no sliders, less cargo and 3rd row rooms ). They want a minivan.

 

I really think that Ford should develop a new North American style minivan. Demographics show that the largest generation since the Baby Boomers will be reaching their prime child-rearing years soon. This group will have need of minivans....so logic can only lead to an uptick in the minivan market. I would assume that Ford could develop a new minivan off of the upcoming CD4 Platform. I wouldn't be surprised if Ford could sell 50,000 minivans in the US and Canada. And we should not forget the Chinese market. The Chinese buy minivans as taxis and executive cars and Buick has had lots of success with the GL8. Ford could enter that market and spread the cost of development even more. Offer the 3.5V6 and the EcoBoost 2.0I4 and call it a day.

[Edstock]

With rising gas prices, it seems that Ford's minivan will be the C-Max. Sure, full-size minivan buyers will go elsewhere, but when you cost out a return to a mature full-size market, better to bring over the smaller package that has done so well in the EU.

[BORG]

I think the situation is complicated by Ford's introduction of the Grand C-Max which they may treat as a minivan alternative, leaving even less room for a proper large full-featured minivan. This strikes me as another Ford Flex-type experiment in people hauler alternatives, there is no indication a market exists but they are going to do this anyway! You would think Ford would rather gamble on the sure thing? Don't get me wrong, I like the C-Max, but I don't think this is an adequate solution and they are STILL missing the heart of the market and pecking at the outliers.

 

I live in suburbia and the minivan is still dominant feature so it's annoying to think all those customers never even had the opportunity to look at Ford, and more than likely they are shopping at Honda or Toyota (and now Nissan).

[ANTAUS]

They could essentially take the Flex and make it somewhat of a minivan, or more like using it's platform D3, and doing so, but would that platform work in other countries? In other words, I think there's more of a business case to take a platform that works worldwide, and develop a minivan from it. I'm guessing the S-Max would fit that? Something Mondeo based where they can leverage the costs and build a minivan for all markets? I feel the D3 is very limited on the worldwide stage.

[BORG]

They could essentially take the Flex and make it somewhat of a minivan, or more like using it's platform D3, and doing so, but would that platform work in other countries? In other words, I think there's more of a business case to take a platform that works worldwide, and develop a minivan from it. I'm guessing the S-Max would fit that? Something Mondeo based where they can leverage the costs and build a minivan for all markets? I feel the D3 is very limited on the worldwide stage.

 

They may indeed be waiting on a new platform, I know adapting a chassis for minivan duty is non-trivial and I'm not sure the D3 is that flexible.

[RichardJensen]

A minivan would require a significant investment in unique vehicle components. Little--if anything--aside from wiring and powertrain could be shared with other vehicles.

 

It would cost several hundred million to develop a vehicle that would have to amortize almost all of its costs on its own, and would compete in a segment where margins are very slim.

[goinbroke2]

"This strikes me as another Ford Flex-type experiment in people hauler alternatives, there is no indication a market exists but they are going to do this anyway!"

You know what? That's what spawned the mustang, the bronco and others. (no I don't think a couple hundred scouts was the real precurser to the bronco market)

We've got vans, mini vans, and ford comes out with a well appointed mini-mini van when gas prices are going up? I don't think it's as much of a stretch as some might think. I'm actually l waiting for the intro to show the wife, maybe we can trade in the freestar. She loves minivans but is only allowed to buy fords so she'll be driving her 06 for a while.....

[RangerM]

How big is the shortest version of the Transit? (It's still coming to the US, correct?)

 

If the C-max serves the small end, then the Transit might serve the larger end.

[silvrsvt]

For all of you parroting Ford needs a Minivan because gas is going up...um your wrong...

 

The Current 3.5L equiped Explorer FWD gets the same MPG as the Grand Caravan, nearly the same MPG as the V6 Sienna (the sienna is 1 MPG higher city and the Explorer is 1 MPG higher highway), the only Minivan it gives loses out too is the Odyessy..but keep in mind this doesn't include the Ecoboost 4 going into the Explorer which should tweek up the MPG by another 1-2 MPG on both highway and city

[twintornados]

....full-size minivan....

 

Edited April 15, 2011 by twintornados

[Harley Lover]

I think it might be possible to have a vehicle with sliders on D3. IIRC, Mark Fields told a story at the introduction of the Flex that the money Ford saved by foregoing development of sliders was diverted to the interior of the Flex (or something along those lines). So, if that recollection is correct, it could be done - but I guess it comes down to whether or not a compelling business case can be built for Ford to enter that market segment.

 

I own a Toyota Sienna, and unfortunately the Flex does not meet our needs (and I would really like to get one!). The Sienna (and the other minivans in the segment by extension) has significantly more room behind the second row of seats, and is simply larger inside than the Flex. Having noted those details, I just don't know if the minivan segment is big enough to merit Ford's reentry. The grand C-Max is not in this segment. As others have noted, it's a small Euro MPV, and it will be interesting to see if it establishes a market here (and kills the Mazda5 in the process).

 

I don't think the Flex was meant to be a minivan, but an alternatively styled CUV. It just doesn't have the utility it needs to compete with a true minivan.

[Pioneer]

I think the situation is complicated by Ford's introduction of the Grand C-Max which they may treat as a minivan alternative, leaving even less room for a proper large full-featured minivan.

 

Did Ford announce that they were bringing the Grand C-Max to the States? I was only aware of the regular C-Max.

[sullynd]

Did Ford announce that they were bringing the Grand C-Max to the States? I was only aware of the regular C-Max.

 

The Grand is coming to the states, the regular CMAX is only coming as a hybrid/PIH.

[Gnostic]

For all of you parroting Ford needs a Minivan because gas is going up...um your wrong...

 

The Current 3.5L equiped Explorer FWD gets the same MPG as the Grand Caravan, nearly the same MPG as the V6 Sienna (the sienna is 1 MPG higher city and the Explorer is 1 MPG higher highway), the only Minivan it gives loses out too is the Odyessy..but keep in mind this doesn't include the Ecoboost 4 going into the Explorer which should tweek up the MPG by another 1-2 MPG on both highway and city

 

 

This maybe true. But the interior size of Explorer is WAY smaller than those minivans. Not even close.

[silvrsvt]

This maybe true. But the interior size of Explorer is WAY smaller than those minivans. Not even close.

 

 

All depends....is it worth it chase down a market that is shrinking in size, just to get sliding doors? I've heard arguments both and against the Minivans...I know my Sister and GF won't be caught dead in minivan...and they both happen to drive Escapes, which is slightly amazing since my sister has two kids under 5 years old!

 

Anyways, the market trends are showing that minivan market is shrinking, while the CUV market is growning.

 

If Ford wants to get back into this market, they should use the S-Max from Europe and not re-invent the wheel by using a minivan off the Flex.

[NLPRacing]

Thanks Borg for bringing this up, we haven't beat this dead horse in a while. :beatdeadhorse:

 

I agree that the Flex "people mover" could evolve into a real minivan alternative for Ford, it just needs to become more Minivan like, and they can do it on the D3/D4. When you compare the specs of the Flex to other minivans, you'll find the length & wheelbase are about the same. When you compare the specs of the new Explorer to other minivans, you'll find the width & wheel track are about the same. So take the current Flex, give it the Explorer's width & track, raise the belt line a bit and the overall height by about 5". Package the interior similar to the new Nissan Quest (3 wide 3rd row seat that folds forward) and keep the current Flex styling (blackout out pillars with a "floating roof") with an Edge like front end. Give it rear doors that look like suicide doors, but open like sliders, but without the tracks (Ford has a patent on this). Offer AWD and an Ecoboost I4 for economy and an Ecoboost V6 for performance. There's a true minivan challenging "people mover" without the minivan stigma. Would it sell enough to justify the investment? I truly think so.

 

Did Ford announce that they were bringing the Grand C-Max to the States? I was only aware of the regular C-Max.

 

Ford is bringing the Grand C-Max, they're simply just going to call it C-Max though. And it appears it will be marketed as a "crossover", not a minivan. Ford C-Max

Edited April 15, 2011 by NLPRacing

[NLPRacing]

All depends....is it worth it chase down a market that is shrinking in size, just to get sliding doors? I've heard arguments both and against the Minivans...I know my Sister and GF won't be caught dead in minivan...and they both happen to drive Escapes, which is slightly amazing since my sister has two kids under 5 years old!

 

Anyways, the market trends are showing that minivan market is shrinking, while the CUV market is growning.

 

If Ford wants to get back into this market, they should use the S-Max from Europe and not re-invent the wheel by using a minivan off the Flex.

 

Ford "revolutionized" the new Explorer chasing after the shrinking SUV segment. Why not try it for the minivan market as well?

[silvrsvt]

Ford "revolutionized" the new Explorer chasing after the shrinking SUV segment. Why not try it for the minivan market as well?

 

Well they more or less turned it into a CUV vs SUV...which in the eyes of the buyers...it was being used as. The Explorer name has lots of creditiblty (good and bad) that it was too valuible (marketing wise) to lose.

 

I don't think the Aero/Win/Freestar names have the same cashe that the Explorer name has :P

[FordBuyer]

Ford "revolutionized" the new Explorer chasing after the shrinking SUV segment. Why not try it for the minivan market as well?

 

 

Faulty analogy. Ford basically invented the SUV segment and dominated it many years with its Explorer. It was natural for Ford to reinvent it again with a new Explorer that is outselling production as of now anyway. Chrysler invented the minivan segment and dominated it and is still very strong in this area. Ford did OK with Windstar, but failed miserably with Freestar. Windstars sitting on Ford dealer lots in high numbers waiting for new parts doesn't help the image either. The minivan has evolved over the years while Ford has opted out. To get back in now with thousands of Windstars sitting on dealer lots would be folly IMO. Instead, Ford is nibbling around the edges with Flex and future Grand C Max. That is proper approach IMO as Ford can pick up some of the crumbs on a much more modest budget. IMO, Ford needs a stronger Lincoln more than it needs a minivan in a segment Ford has NEVER been dominate in. GM was never dominate in minivan segment either and is smart in staying out and nibbling like Ford. Especially in this economy with mounting headwinds as year goes on. Now is not the time to be gambling on segments you never were good at in first place.

[NLPRacing]

Well they more or less turned it into a CUV vs SUV...which in the eyes of the buyers...it was being used as. The Explorer name has lots of creditiblty (good and bad) that it was too valuible (marketing wise) to lose.

 

I don't think the Aero/Win/Freestar names have the same cashe that the Explorer name has :P

 

It is what it is, but Ford still calls it an SUV. I agree that Ford should of done it, but I don't know if the business case was there.

 

Faulty analogy. Ford basically invented the SUV segment and dominated it many years with its Explorer. It was natural for Ford to reinvent it again with a new Explorer that is outselling production as of now anyway. Chrysler invented the minivan segment and dominated it and is still very strong in this area. Ford did OK with Windstar, but failed miserably with Freestar. Windstars sitting on Ford dealer lots in high numbers waiting for new parts doesn't help the image either. The minivan has evolved over the years while Ford has opted out. To get back in now with thousands of Windstars sitting on dealer lots would be folly IMO. Instead, Ford is nibbling around the edges with Flex and future Grand C Max. That is proper approach IMO as Ford can pick up some of the crumbs on a much more modest budget. IMO, Ford needs a stronger Lincoln more than it needs a minivan in a segment Ford has NEVER been dominate in. GM was never dominate in minivan segment either and is smart in staying out and nibbling like Ford. Especially in this economy with mounting headwinds as year goes on. Now is not the time to be gambling on segments you never were good at in first place.

 

With that thinking, Ford should of abandoned the pony car market after the Mustang II. The minivan market may be shrinking a little, but it is still huge and many minivans are sold with very high ATP's. The Flex as is can't play in that arena, but I believe it easily could.

[92merc]

Ford "revolutionized" the new Explorer chasing after the shrinking SUV segment. Why not try it for the minivan market as well?

I think Ford will be sticking to their "One Ford" plan on this. For as small as the market is, bring over the European Grand C-Max. The US factory will already be building cars off that same platform. No sense in sticking money into something "new".

 

Personally, I feel the Flex appeals to a different market than the Explorer. Yes, similar market, but not quite the same. Explorer is more car like in its application. Explorer is CUV in application.

 

As far as the Mustang goes being on its own platform, I see that as more of a "halo car" at the moment. No it may not have the sales to justify its own platform. But I think that will be addressed in the next generation. Sharing some common components and/or platform with other world cars.

 

Even if Ford comes out with a new halo car like the GT was, I still see the Mustang as an brand image car. It is still needed for company reputation. I think it is the only car that Ford makes that applies to this situation.

[FordBuyer]

It is what it is, but Ford still calls it an SUV. I agree that Ford should of done it, but I don't know if the business case was there.

 

 

 

With that thinking, Ford should of abandoned the pony car market after the Mustang II. The minivan market may be shrinking a little, but it is still huge and many minivans are sold with very high ATP's. The Flex as is can't play in that arena, but I believe it easily could.

 

Ford has been dominate in pony car segment as they invented it! Yes, Flex sales have been disappointing, but IMO putting sliders on it would make vehicle look silly in the extreme. I personally would rather see Ford end the Flex and develop a Fusion staton wagon instead. Since the next Fusion will be European based, just build the N.A. version over there and bring it to states with Focus station wagon. Thus no need for Flex and its mediocre fuel mileage and limited cargo room for its size. Again, the Grand C Max will have to be Ford's entry into minivan market at this time. Maybe when Ford has been investment grade for a few years, and its stock is stronger, and the economy is more stable, Ford can look at the segment again and see if there is more room for another player.

[NLPRacing]

Ford has been dominate in pony car segment as they invented it! Yes, Flex sales have been disappointing, but IMO putting sliders on it would make vehicle look silly in the extreme. I personally would rather see Ford end the Flex and develop a Fusion staton wagon instead. Since the next Fusion will be European based, just build the N.A. version over there and bring it to states with Focus station wagon. Thus no need for Flex and its mediocre fuel mileage and limited cargo room for its size. Again, the Grand C Max will have to be Ford's entry into minivan market at this time. Maybe when Ford has been investment grade for a few years, and its stock is stronger, and the economy is more stable, Ford can look at the segment again and see if there is more room for another player.

 

Replace the 7 passenger Flex with a 5 passenger Fusion wagon? That's funny. Besides, we already have a Fusion wagon, it's called an Edge and it does just fine.

[FordBuyer]

I think Ford will be sticking to their "One Ford" plan on this. For as small as the market is, bring over the European Grand C-Max. The US factory will already be building cars off that same platform. No sense in sticking money into something "new".

 

Personally, I feel the Flex appeals to a different market than the Explorer. Yes, similar market, but not quite the same. Explorer is more car like in its application. Explorer is CUV in application.

 

As far as the Mustang goes being on its own platform, I see that as more of a "halo car" at the moment. No it may not have the sales to justify its own platform. But I think that will be addressed in the next generation. Sharing some common components and/or platform with other world cars.

 

Even if Ford comes out with a new halo car like the GT was, I still see the Mustang as an brand image car. It is still needed for company reputation. I think it is the only car that Ford makes that applies to this situation.

 

The new Boss Laguna Seca is a fantastic Halo Car for Ford. Very desirable vehicle as in you lust after that car. Ford gets it with Laguna Seca. The 750 who get that vehicle are very lucky indeed. Reading the auto reviews only makes you lust after it more. Lincoln needs a halo car like the Boss. GM has the Corvette. Nissan has the GTR. Cadillac has the V Series. Audi has the R Series. BMW has the M Series. This is where Ford needs to join the crowd, not the minivan market that at best is stagnant and worst shrinking. On top of that, Ford was never strong in minivan market, even with Aerostar and Windstar. Some nice station wagons, Ford's great CUV lineup, and the S/C Max will do just fine in picking up the slack.