Pioneer Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Flat Rock could be a Huge plant, they also need to add jobs there so if/when they close Woodhaven Stamping in the next contract they have a place to send those workers. Woodhaven would need to stay open if those vehicles move to FRAP. Flat Rock's integrated stamping plant would never be able to keep up with the body shop with all that product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnm Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I dont know, Pioneer. I hear the same rumors about woodhaven too. But I would admit its just BS plant floor rumors as im sure you know how those can be, haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) So either they are going to jerk around and potentially upset police agencies by changing to a new platform I'm not sure why a platform change would be a problem for LEAs, as long as Ford doesn't make wholesale changes the mechanical parts or the equipment mounting points. Edited October 22, 2012 by SoonerLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I wasn't clear in the article... does this mean Ford will move Mustang to somewhere else? Does the FWD side of Flat Rock have enough capacity to do CD4 Fusion/Mondeo (seems like Gent is going to close...) and MKS/Taurus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I wasn't clear in the article... does this mean Ford will move Mustang to somewhere else? Does the FWD side of Flat Rock have enough capacity to do CD4 Fusion/Mondeo (seems like Gent is going to close...) and MKS/Taurus? Mustang is staying. Supposedly they can run 3 platforms with 2 body types each. I don't think it matters whether it's FWD or RWD that's just how it was organized before with Mazda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I wouldn't be surprised to see Ford whipsaw the UAW between CAP and Flat Rock. CAP has been on rebellious side and generally MI plants have been less so in voting except for maybe Dearborn truck plant. I have a feeling if CAP wants new product after Taurus and MKS leave, they will have to give in a little. I doubt if the police market will be what it used to be for Ford. Looks like maybe 1,500-2,000 units/month instead of the 5,000/month. Three shifts will not be needed for 150,000 Explorers and 25,000 P.I.'s. Maybe not even two shifts unless Explorer sales go even higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Looks like maybe 1,500-2,000 units/month instead of the 5,000/month. How many decades ago are you going back? Ford hasn't sold PI's in those numbers in a loooooooooooooooooooong time (if ever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) Call me confused about how Ford does this and keeps enough D3/D4 volume on PI and PIU alone. The totality of the patrol cars sold in NA are around 70k, and Ford doesn't have nearly the market domination they had with the CV. So either they are going to jerk around and potentially upset police agencies by changing to a new platform, or other products need to remain on D3/D4. In order to make the PI and PIU business case healthy the Explorer as the platform volume leader at a minimum needs to stay. Even then it will be a struggle for Chicago and D3/D4 to remove the ~120k sales per year that represent the Taurus, MKS, Flex, and MKT. Flex and MKT are built at Oakville Assembly plant and by the end of 2014, I'd expect both would either be gone or on another platform. Relocation of Taurus/MKS to FRAP means that more production can be given over to Explorer whilst PI and PI Ute remain at CAP. Cap becomes the only D3 plant while FRAP and OAP switch to CD4 products and Mustang... I have a feeling that significant weight can be taken out of D3 by applying CD4 slim door tech to the side frames.. Edited October 22, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Just a hunch, I believe that Edge and MKX are under development at the moment in what's being termed CD4.2 and if anything will be a heavy rejiggering of the S-Max-Galaxy vehicle attributes to get a US styled utility. I would hazard a guess that attribute prototypes are running around and being mistaken for Euro Fords.. Ford likes the rugged D3 at the moment but maybe there's an opportunity to do something about those heavy doors it uses... Volvo actually changed their P2 (D3) into P24 by doing that amongst other framing and engineering changes to create P24, their EUCD. I wonder if the slimmer and lighter EUCD-CD4 Doors could be made to fit onto Explorer and Taurus PI for a nice little interim improvement.. you are correct if what I saw this morning is anything to go by, an Edge mule photo...has S-max written all over it ( side glass especially ) shame IMO, I always veiwed the Edge as one of Fords better all round design../Cayenne like, but better proportioned...the spy shot had definite mini-van cues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 you are correct if what I saw this morning is anything to go by, an Edge mule photo...has S-max written all over it ( side glass especially ) shame IMO, I always veiwed the Edge as one of Fords better all round design../Cayenne like, but better proportioned...the spy shot had definite mini-van cues... Let's hope Ford doesn't mess with the Edge too much in that has been very successful for them, and very good looking. Whatever they do, it should look like an Edge and what buyers of them expect. I guess you could argue that Ford messed with the Escape and pulled it off, but not sure if they could radically change the Edge and pull that off too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) Upthread someone said "C class size cars/CUV's are 5 year design cycles". Maybe in the 90's, but now. Civic, CR-V, and Corolla are 6 year cycles. Focus was 11 model years until 2012's. Escape nearly as long, and still sold well. 4-5 year car design cycles ended with the 1900's. So, don't expect "all new Explorer" in just 2 years. And, the 2011 didn't fully go on sale until winter 2011, only 18 months ago. It's not 'aged' yet. Edited October 22, 2012 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 you are correct if what I saw this morning is anything to go by, an Edge mule photo...has S-max written all over it ( side glass especially ) shame IMO, I always veiwed the Edge as one of Fords better all round design../Cayenne like, but better proportioned...the spy shot had definite mini-van cues... I hope not as well. But then again, remember the mules for the Flex and MKT, so it may not mean much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 you are correct if what I saw this morning is anything to go by, an Edge mule photo...has S-max written all over it ( side glass especially ) shame IMO, I always veiwed the Edge as one of Fords better all round design../Cayenne like, but better proportioned...the spy shot had definite mini-van cues... Let's hope Ford doesn't mess with the Edge too much in that has been very successful for them, and very good looking. Whatever they do, it should look like an Edge and what buyers of them expect. I guess you could argue that Ford messed with the Escape and pulled it off, but not sure if they could radically change the Edge and pull that off too. I hope not as well. But then again, remember the mules for the Flex and MKT, so it may not mean much. As I said above, these are probably attribute prototypes which mimic certain parts of the vehicle under development, it could also be that Ford's research shows that Edge buyers are wanting a vehicle more like Fusion and less like an SUV. It could also be equally true that Ford's accountants are influencing engineering products in the quest for maximum returns on investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Woodhaven would need to stay open if those vehicles move to FRAP. Flat Rock's integrated stamping plant would never be able to keep up with the body shop with all that product. Is it really that much more on top of what's planned for FRAP next year, could the stamping plant be increased in the next 2-3 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfan Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Woodhaven would need to stay open if those vehicles move to FRAP. Flat Rock's integrated stamping plant would never be able to keep up with the body shop with all that product. I dont know, Pioneer. I hear the same rumors about woodhaven too. But I would admit its just BS plant floor rumors as im sure you know how those can be, haha. Woodhaven is not going anywhere. Pioneer is right- it will be the stamper for FRAP from what I hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Upthread someone said "C class size cars/CUV's are 5 year design cycles". Maybe in the 90's, but now. Civic, CR-V, and Corolla are 6 year cycles. Focus was 11 model years until 2012's. Escape nearly as long, and still sold well. 4-5 year car design cycles ended with the 1900's. So, don't expect "all new Explorer" in just 2 years. And, the 2011 didn't fully go on sale until winter 2011, only 18 months ago. It's not 'aged' yet. Fields made several mentions over the last year or so of their new target for vehicle MCE's and refresh: New model lasts for 3 years, MCE for 2 years, freshening for 2 years, repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Woodhaven is not going anywhere. Pioneer is right- it will be the stamper for FRAP from what I hear. In the UAW agreement, Woodhaven is to continue stamping panels for F150 Expedition and navigator... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) "Fields made several mentions over the last year or so of their new target for vehicle MCE's and refresh: New model lasts for 3 years, MCE for 2 years, freshening for 2 years, repeat." There is a difference between 'targets' and reality. I dont see them spending all that money for 5 year cycles to please fan-bois at car shows. Especially with EUR in trouble. Saying one thing and doing are also two different things. Edited October 23, 2012 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 "Fields made several mentions over the last year or so of their new target for vehicle MCE's and refresh: New model lasts for 3 years, MCE for 2 years, freshening for 2 years, repeat." There is a difference between 'targets' and reality. I dont see them spending all that money for 5 year cycles to please fan-bois at car shows. Especially with EUR in trouble. Saying one thing and doing are also two different things. I read that as 7 years, not 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I read that as 7 years, not 5. New math? The new "ideal" model will be 7 years on a platform: 3 years on each "new" model, 4th year brings a standard MCE (new front and rear clips, reskinned dash, new options), 6th year brings a freshening (enhancements to existing front and rear clips, new interior trims, powertrain enhancements). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 New math? The new "ideal" model will be 7 years on a platform: 3 years on each "new" model, 4th year brings a standard MCE (new front and rear clips, reskinned dash, new options), 6th year brings a freshening (enhancements to existing front and rear clips, new interior trims, powertrain enhancements). Doesn't 3 + 2 + 2 = 7 years on a platform? Or were you agreeing with me? Hard to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Doesn't 3 + 2 + 2 = 7 years on a platform? Or were you agreeing with me? Hard to tell. I'm agreeing with you. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm agreeing with you. B) <whew!> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfan Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 In the UAW agreement, Woodhaven is to continue stamping panels for F150 Expedition and navigator... The F-150/Expedition/Navigator work is for the current generation; DSP and KTP are supposed to get most of the work for the next generation of these trucks starting in 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) The F-150/Expedition/Navigator work is for the current generation; DSP and KTP are supposed to get most of the work for the next generation of these trucks starting in 2014. So that makes Woodhaven available for other work like FRAP. Gotcha. Maybe local stamp plant at FRAP becomes dedicated to mustang side only, making panels as needed? Edited October 24, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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