630land Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Mine is fine, and I don't want a 4 speed automatic Corolla. Or a CVT nerdmobile Sentra. The 8 speeds in FCA products isn't winning any 'refinement' awards, so what do some expect? Old 3 speeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Mine is fine, and I don't want a 4 speed automatic Corolla. Or a CVT nerdmobile Sentra. The 8 speeds in FCA products isn't winning any 'refinement' awards, so what do some expect? Old 3 speeds? The 8 speed auto in FCA products is ZF8H, probably the best transmission in the world today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The 8 speed auto in FCA products is ZF8H, probably the best transmission in the world today. It might be a great transmission but you can't tell because the software controlling it is substandard at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 We had a guy order a 1500 Sierra with a 4.3 because it still had the 4 speed auto in it. "I can't handle that 6 speed shifting all the time!" This: I guess we can resolve that issue by putting more sound insulation in. Then it'll be "This thing is an overweight porker!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Well given the fact that the 2L I4 is only found in the Focus in NA, you'd think it would be better off for Ford to replace it with the 1.5L Ecoboost instead...easier to add 200K or so engines to a line then have your own separate line just for the 2L DFI engine...I know its oversimplified, but the point remains. Originally the MKIII Focus 2.0L and Powershift was sold in Russia and is still offered in Malaysia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Disclosure: I was directly involved with the first Ford prototype DCT back in the early 80s. We had cars running, but like any first gen prototype there were a LOT of issues. Ford's biggest problem with their current DCT was a last minute decision to put that transmission in a Focus. It was never supposed to go in anything larger than the Fiesta with a 1.6L engine. Second problem was the decision to stay with a "dry" clutch. Even though Ford did a lot of development with Luk, everyone on the development team knew that clutch wear versus shift quality was a very difficult issue, primarily because for decent "feel", the clutch had to be slipped 5-10% almost continuously ! Not difficult on a wet clutch. Very difficult o a dry clutch if you want 100k durability. Third, shifts take time ! The more gears you have, the faster the shifts must occur. The Ford/Getrag box uses all electric actuators (motors). On a hard, fast acceleration from a stop, those gear forks are doing a lot of moving and the electric actuators (motors) are geared down (more mechanical force, less electrical power) so moving the slider back and forth is not exactly instantaneous. Probably the vest thing said is "tell the customer what to expect". I would go one step further and say take the customer on a long test drive, or better yet, hook the up with a 24-48 hour test drive. If they know it is "different" than a typical slushbox, there will be a lot less compaints. Reading some presentations on DCTs it is good the consider behavior in low power applications vs high power applications. with a Low power application You need a good amount of Slip to get going without bogging or stalling the engine, so smooth and precise clutch actuation is key. the Dry clutch is extremely efficient because by design it minimizes energy wasting slippage, ad Left to its on devices would sacrfice comfort for performance (I.E. less slippage ) Again in the real world the lack of predictable performance of the Dry clutch makes Smooth and precise clutch actuation a challenge under some circumstances. The current Power-shift DCT represented 3 major improvements over prior generation DCTs 1) Fully electronic actuation of Shift elements previous DCTs used a similar actuation system as a traditional ATX, with hydraulic pressure moving the shift forks. It was heavy, complex, imprecise and expensive. required a Transmission driven pump. 2) Fully electronic actuation of Clutches See above 3) Dry Clutch See above. The Changes made to the 4th generation DCT 1) Compact Nested wet Clutch (lower mass Reduces inertia, makes up for losses from moving to Wet clutch) 2)Electro-Hydraulic clutch Operation, (electrically powered pump actuates clutch and circulates cooling fluid, Smoother actuation of the clutch) 3) Optimized Gearset (lighter weight, less internal mass, wider gear ratios) 4) Transmission cooling capabilty 5) AWD compatable. Edited December 8, 2015 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Well given the fact that the 2L I4 is only found in the Focus in NA, you'd think it would be better off for Ford to replace it with the 1.5L Ecoboost instead...easier to add 200K or so engines to a line then have your own separate line just for the 2L DFI engine...I know its oversimplified, but the point remains. SIlverSVT, the 2.0 is Made in Dearborn Engine Plant, it only make 2.0 both the GDI for the Focus and the Hybrid 2.0. According to Ford the 2.0 will continue to be available for the foreseeable future with upgrades, because it is cheap and fuel efficient, and will be even more so with The upgrades already used on the EB 2.0 which is shares many components with. The EB1.5 is more expensive and doesn't offer the improvement in efficiency over the 2.0 needed to overcome its premium price. Before you say volume can make up for the price difference, The 2.0 (likely ) shares Blocks, heads, drive-shaft, cams, and injections system with the EcoBoost 2.0, which means, you are still paying a premium for the Turbo charger and related components over the base 2.0 Just glance at fordparts.com list these turbo specific parts. Turbo $745 Turbo oil line $39.95 Turbo charger Vacuum valve $174.29 Boost solenoid $23 Ait inlet connection hose $88.05 these are specific Turbo only parts. If a Focus buyer wants a Conventional ATX buy the EB10. Edited December 8, 2015 by Biker16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The research I did on dual dry clutch it appears that thermal issues are one of the main weak points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Originally the MKIII Focus 2.0L and Powershift was sold in Russia and is still offered in Malaysia Malaysia get its Focus from Thailand so it's just a case of them still having left over pre-refreshed model with 2.0. For some reason, the refreshed Focus is still not available in Thailand and Malaysia, despite being build in Thailand. Ford is definitely not building any more 2.0 Powershift Focus in either Thailand, Taiwan, or China. The other Asia Pacific markets (e.g. Australia, Taiwan, New Zealand, Japan, China, Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam etc) have received the refreshed models with 1.5 Ecoboost and 6F35 in place of the old 2.0 Powershift. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY93SHO Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The 8 speed auto in FCA products is ZF8H, probably the best transmission in the world today. 8 speeds not the problem. 9 speed fwd trans is the one with the complaints. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 It might be a great transmission but you can't tell because the software controlling it is substandard at best. Your thinking of the 9 speed transmission that is used in the 200, Dart and Cherokee. I read the reports and checked some boards about this since I just bought a new Cherokee-it shifts way smoother than the 200 I rented last year which I thought was going to get me killed since it had little gearing down low. The 8 speed in the Grand Cherokee I rented a few months back shifted perfectly great with no issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 If a Focus buyer wants a Conventional ATX buy the EB10. But your stuck with a stripper special much like the MTX outside of the ST and RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 But your stuck with a stripper special much like the MTX outside of the ST and RS Not totally, there's a few options you can choose from. It is a SE model after all. You just don't get the full selection of goodies to choose from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) If Ford goes to wet clutch DCT or the 6F35 auto, I'm predicting that all the residual grumbles with the current gearbox will cease and buyers will finally get the transmission they were expecting. My experience with the diesel Focus and wet clutch DCT have been nothing but plesant with a great balance between smooth feel and positive shifting. The right clutch /gearbox makes a hell of a difference. Edited December 9, 2015 by jpd80 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 A dry clutch DCT is an exercise in balancing trade-offs. From a design standpoint, dry clutch strong points are low cost, low parasitic losses, and the opportunity for forced air cooling. Weak points are finite life, variability in engagement quality due to lining wear, and limited thermal capability. The wet clutch strong points are near infinite life (I am aware of abusive applications where only break in wear was seen after 40,000,000 applications), very high thermal capability, compactness, high torque capacity versus size, and excellent engagement quality over the life of the unit. Weak points are cost (cooling oil circulating system is the big one) and parasitic losses (although these can be minimizes to approach dry clutch numbers with proper design, but that adds to cost). Thermal capability is very important, as that determines if and how much you can slip the clutch during engagement, which determines if you have smooth or abrupt shifts. Wet clutches make for a more "user friendly" DCT. And this is not just opinion, but based on over 25 years of designing clutches for a wide range of applications. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 A dry clutch DCT is an exercise in balancing trade-offs. From a design standpoint, dry clutch strong points are low cost, low parasitic losses, and the opportunity for forced air cooling. Weak points are finite life, variability in engagement quality due to lining wear, and limited thermal capability. The wet clutch strong points are near infinite life (I am aware of abusive applications where only break in wear was seen after 40,000,000 applications), very high thermal capability, compactness, high torque capacity versus size, and excellent engagement quality over the life of the unit. Weak points are cost (cooling oil circulating system is the big one) and parasitic losses (although these can be minimizes to approach dry clutch numbers with proper design, but that adds to cost). Thermal capability is very important, as that determines if and how much you can slip the clutch during engagement, which determines if you have smooth or abrupt shifts. Wet clutches make for a more "user friendly" DCT. And this is not just opinion, but based on over 25 years of designing clutches for a wide range of applications. So, in other words, Ford took the cheapest route and the customers are paying for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 So, in other words, Ford took the cheapest route and the customers are paying for it. I don't think so, the available wet clutch DCTs at the time were as expensive as a conventional ATX without the advantages of lower mass or efficiency that the dry DCT had. they took a risk, and it has had mixed reviews, they have also done what no other MFG has done they have for the most part solved 90% of the issues with the technology, they simply cannot resolve that other 10% without changing technology. The DRy DCT gives for something no other MFG has 160hp and 3000lbs while getting up to 41MPG Hwy, at lower cost than the alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Being that the Focus has been on the market a number of years with the DCT, (barring failures) how long does a clutch usually last? Does it have the same useable life as a manual clutch? Are we looking at 100-150k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Being that the Focus has been on the market a number of years with the DCT, (barring failures) how long does a clutch usually last? Does it have the same useable life as a manual clutch? Are we looking at 100-150k? 165k on my 2009 Focus manual with no problems or slipping discs. I think fuzymoomoo got around 180k before he had a problem, but it wasn't clutch disc failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) 165k on my 2009 Focus manual with no problems or slipping discs. I think fuzymoomoo got around 180k before he had a problem, but it wasn't clutch disc failure. I'm at 177k. The issue I had was a broken c/v axle. I thought it was the clutch at first. The one issue I do have is one of the synchronizers for first gear doesn't quite work right, so it grinds every once and a while. Still zero problems with the clutch. I'm shooting for 200k out of it. Edited December 9, 2015 by fuzzymoomoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) So, in other words, Ford took the cheapest route and the customers are paying for it. Well, you could say that. The reality is that cost was a high priority goal on this design and Ford worked with one of the premier clutch manufacturers (Luk) for many years trying to develop a dry clutch system that was "acceptable". Some times things just don't work out. Edited December 9, 2015 by theoldwizard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I don't think so, the available wet clutch DCTs at the time were as expensive as a conventional ATX without the advantages of lower mass or efficiency that the dry DCT had. Without data, I don't buy your argument ! Sure wet clutches are more expensive, but expensive enough to put it on par with a 4-6 speed auto ? I don't think so ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I'm shooting for 200k out of it. Me too. That would put me in spring of 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT90SC Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Wizard, the current software once through the break in period does not slip all that much once the clutch is applied, especially at or near cruise. We are not seeing thermal issues in as much as we are seeing dust issues due to its containment in the clutch housing. Know a couple guys who were cleaning 'dry' non contaminated clutches when the back order was so god awful long with fairly good success. Also "scuffing" the clutch seems to make them straighten up and fly right until you can get a clutch in stock for them. Fiesta seems to have some pretty bad issues with moisture intrusion leading to shudder due to the lack of the underbody powertrain cover present on Focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 So what's the solution to reduce containment build up inside the clutch housing? Is there any way Ford can modify the housing to allow the dust to escape in a controlled method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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