Ford changing co-developed GM 9-speed into an 8-speed?

[papilgee4evaeva]

Maybe 9 speeds is the point of diminishing returns for a FWD transmission? If 8 gives you better performance (and likely equal or better fuel economy), why bother with the 9 speed? I would imagine they just took a gear out from the middle somewhere it wasn't needed.

I actually remember reading that somewhere, that beyond 8 the returns aren't that great.

 

I think BMW, Mercedes and others use 8 so I don't see the big deal. 9 and 10 seem like overkill (but the trucks can use the extra overdrive gears to compensate for numerically higher axle ratios and towing.

Lots of others are using the ZF 8HP (BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Maserati, Dodge/Chrysler) or have developed their own 8AT (Lexus, Hyundai/Kia). (ETA: someone beat me to this)

Mercedes has tended to favor odd numbers of gears... they've gone from 5 to 7 to now 9.

 

 

So in other words, it could be related to the power the EcoBoost motors make.

But that shouldn't be really an issue? The 6F already handles it?

 

Sometimes it takes a while for them to engineer the higher number of gears while still being able to handle the output. The Mercedes V12 models were saddled with the 5G-Tronic long after other models with V8s or V6s had been switched to seven gears.

 

Per what rmc said, they might also be trying to figure out how to beef up the transmission so that, say, the 2.7 and 3.0 don't have to be torque-limited in lower gears. But I'm just spitballing on that one.

Edited May 24, 2017 by papilgee4evaeva

[fuzzymoomoo]

So when do we get a 7 speed manual?

[SoonerLS]

But that shouldn't be really an issue? The 6F already handles it?

It's not necessarily that it can't handle the output, just that it's not well matched to the EBs' torque curves. F'rinstance, it could just be that with all the shifting you keep taking the EB out of its power band, making it work harder where it's less efficient, so fewer gears with better ratio spacing could get you better results than more gears.

[630land]

Will this replace the DCT in next Focus or ?

[NLPRacing]

So when do we get a 7 speed manual?

 

Why stop at 7...

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

Why stop at 7...

Does that come with Vin Diesel? If so, I don't want it.

[jpd80]

I hope this is factual. The current GM 9 speed is probably just fine for lower powered vehicles but I think the ratios are really out of whack for the twin turbo V6s that have massive low end torque and a flat torque curve.

 

For example, at WOT the 3.0 Continental with the 6 speed reaches 32, 50 and 78 MPH in gears 1-3. It NEVER falls under the torque peak during that time. The ratios are 4.48, 2.87 and 1.84. The GM 9 speed first 3 ratios are 4.69, 3.31 and 3.01. The first two are lower than necessary (high numerically) for an engine that makes 400 Lb/ft of torque at 2750 RPM and 3rd is too close to 2nd to be useful. 3rd would only be worth around 10 more MPH at WOT vs 2nd. I do like that the 9 speed has two overdrive ratios - .75 and .62. The .62 ratio would definitely help highway mileage vs the .74 used in the current 6 speed.

 

Logic would say that more ratios help acceleration due to keeping the engine in its most favorable RPM range. That is very true on most naturally aspirated engines or those that develop their power at higher RPM. I am sure the 10 speed will help the Coyote Mustang since that engine lacks low end torque and is a high revver. However, the twin turbo engines are low revving, high torque engines and additional shifts can be more of a detriment than a benefit. Every manufacturer uses some torque management to make the shifts smoother by cutting power at the shift point. Fewer shifts can actually result in better performance in many cases. While totally unrelated to passenger cars, the preferred transmission for high powered modified street cars at the drag strip is the 2 speed Powerglide!

Think light throttle rather than full throttle, the steps between gear ratios become smaller

meaning less throttle movement which is good for official fuel figures.

 

The arguments for and against more gears have been going on since the first three speed auto went up against two speed gearboxes.

 

The three speed box allowed a taller rear end for better economy, the four speed auto added an over drive ratio for even better economy.

Then the five speed auto added a lower first gear for more performance and then the six speed auto added another overdrive ratio.

 

Once automakers realized that more than six gears could be packed into a gearbox without massive size and cost increases,

I think they saw that as an easier way out than dealing with weight and actual engine efficiency.

Edited May 24, 2017 by jpd80

[papilgee4evaeva]

Does that come with Vin Diesel? If so, I don't want it.

 

Some people say that women drive the market.

[Trader 10]

I'm not buying the thinking that the ecoboost engines are the reason for the change from 9 speeds to 8. The 10 speed debuted with the new 3.5 eco and the 2018 2.7 F 150 is 10 speed only.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I'm not buying the thinking that the ecoboost engines are the reason for the change from 9 speeds to 8. The 10 speed debuted with the new 3.5 eco and the 2018 2.7 F 150 is 10 speed only.

 

Those transmissions aren't related to the FWD units except for the companies that design and build them, so no comparison can be drawn.

 

And (splitting hairs a bit) the 10AT actually debuted in the Camaro ZL1 before Ford put them in the F150 trucks. If anything, this suggests that the longitudinal transmission was, from the outset, designed and built for the purpose of handling a ton of torque.

[brucelinc]

The 10 speed has much more logical ratios than the 9 speed - not so close in first 3 gears. Trucks have different needs, anyway.

 

It will be great in Mustangs, too.

Edited May 25, 2017 by brucelinc

[jpd80]

The 10 speed has much more logical ratios than the 9 speed - not so close in first 3 gears. Trucks have different needs, anyway.

 

It will be great in Mustangs, too.

The 10-speed auto actually fills in two gaps that the GM 8-speed auto has between 4-5 and 7-8.

While the 9-speed auto appears to have closer ratios on the first four gears, I have a feeling that

use in FWDs has been tailored to optimise characteristics neeeded with shift patterns for both

emissions and performance....we won't really know without driving both and comparing them.

[351cid]

 

. I am sure the 10 speed will help the Coyote Mustang since that engine lacks low end torque and is a high revver. However, the twin turbo engines are low revving, high torque engines and additional shifts can be more of a detriment than a benefit. Every manufacturer uses some torque management to make the shifts smoother by cutting power at the shift point. Fewer shifts can actually result in better performance in many cases. While totally unrelated to passenger cars, the preferred transmission for high powered modified street cars at the drag strip is the 2 speed Powerglide!

 

Maybe mine is a bit different because of the Bama tune and full Ford Racing Exhaust, but the 5.0L in my '13 Mustang certainly doesn't lack low speed torque. At 2000 rpm it's making 305 lb ft (on the rear axle) and peaks at 412 at 4000. That's probably about 30-40 lb ft more than a stock 5.0L. Using 15% as a driveline loss; that figures the stock engine is making close to 300 lb ft at the crank @ 2000. That's not "weak", IMO.

[brucelinc]

 

Maybe mine is a bit different because of the Bama tune and full Ford Racing Exhaust, but the 5.0L in my '13 Mustang certainly doesn't lack low speed torque. At 2000 rpm it's making 305 lb ft (on the rear axle) and peaks at 412 at 4000. That's probably about 30-40 lb ft more than a stock 5.0L. Using 15% as a driveline loss; that figures the stock engine is making close to 300 lb ft at the crank @ 2000. That's not "weak", IMO.

 

Ford has stated that the 2018 Coyote will have more low end torque but they haven't provided numbers. I am sure that a tuned 5.0 has better low end torque than when stock.

Edited May 25, 2017 by brucelinc

[brucelinc]

Do we know if the FWD 9 speed or RWD 10 speed will skip some gears under light throttle? It seems like I read that somewhere but cannot find it now.

[fordmantpw]

Do we know if the FWD 9 speed or RWD 10 speed will skip some gears under light throttle? It seems like I read that somewhere but cannot find it now.

 

I know the RWD 10 speed does in the info I saw when it was first revealed. I remember seeing it has the ability to go through the gears sequentially or skip, depending on the conditions.

 

Maybe tbone or rmc can comment since tbone has one and rmc's father has one (both in Raptors).

[rmc523]

 

I know the RWD 10 speed does in the info I saw when it was first revealed. I remember seeing it has the ability to go through the gears sequentially or skip, depending on the conditions.

 

Maybe tbone or rmc can comment since tbone has one and rmc's father has one (both in Raptors).

 

Yes, I've noticed on the digital gear display that it will sometimes skip over gears (though I wasn't sure if that was a situation where it went so quickly through them that it just didn't display the change). Makes sense that it could be skipping them.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Do we know if the FWD 9 speed or RWD 10 speed will skip some gears under light throttle? It seems like I read that somewhere but cannot find it now.

I see zero reason why it wouldn't. You can get a 6 speed to skip gears under certain circumstances.

[bzcat]

Automatic gearbox are designed to optimize the gear selection so it will skip gears when the programming tells it to go directly to higher or lower gear. That's why it is called "automatic"... When you smash the go pedal, it may downshift from 5th to 2nd gear instead of going 5-4-3-2. And when it sense the load is really light, it may up shift from 5th to 8th instead of going 5-6-7-8.

 

The dual clutch gearboxes are actually sequential manual gear box that doesn't skip gears because it per-selects the next gear. The advantage of dual clutch sequential gear box is that gear shift is faster and in theory, it keeps the engine in the optimal rpm range longer - i.e. it works really well in racing.

Edited May 25, 2017 by bzcat

[akirby]

Automatic gearbox are designed to optimize the gear selection so it will skip gears when the programming tells it to go directly to higher or lower gear. That's why it is called "automatic"... When you smash the go pedal, it may downshift from 5th to 2nd gear instead of going 5-4-3-2. And when it sense the load is really light, it may up shift from 5th to 8th instead of going 5-6-7-8.

 

The dual clutch gearboxes are actually sequential manual gear box that doesn't skip gears because it per-selects the next gear. The advantage of dual clutch sequential gear box is that gear shift is faster and in theory, it keeps the engine in the optimal rpm range longer - i.e. it works really well in racing.

 

Pretty sure it can downshift multiple gears at a time (when in auto mode). If you're in 6th on gearset A you can always preselect 3rd on gearset B instead of 5th. Right?

[brucelinc]

Sorry my question was not clear. I realize any automatic will skip gears on down shifts. I was talking about upshifts at lighter throttle input. It sounds like the 10 speed does. I wonder about the 9 speed.

[tbone]

I believe it does skip gears on upshifts, but I will have to verify it and get back to you.

[jpd80]

Let's hope that the changes at Ford also give us more details on projects like this

and what vehicles will be getting the new 9-speed auto and when..

 

The last few years have been like everything is a national secret, so maybe someone

will start feeding the press more details soon as to what we can expect and when..

[brucelinc]

Dredging up this old topic again. While Motor Trend is not the utmost authority on anything, their comments about the 9 speed in a Chevy Equinox is precisely in line with why I think Ford should NOT use this gearbox as it is used in GM vehicles. I sure as heck would not want it in my Continental. Changing to an 8 speed and altering the ratios would improve it considerably, imho.

 

There are a few curious quirks to this transmission. One is the fact that the overall ratio in first gear is a significant 19 percent taller than in the six-speed—a likely hedge against torque steer. If that was the aim, it worked. In a front-drive model and in the AWD variant with AWD switched off, I was utterly unable to make the engine tug at the wheel during wide-open-throttle brake-torqued launches with full wheel lock, hard downshifts in tight corners, and similar hooning. The other is the crazy close spacing between second and third gears, which amounts to 5 mph on the speedometer. Those are either/or ratios—depending on your rate of acceleration, you’ll use one or the other but seldom both during any given acceleration run.

[jpd80]

There's a wider spread of ratios than the 6-speed FWD that Ford currently uses and under light throttle,

the 9AT approximates a CVT - that the feedback from people who have actually driven the 9AT.

I'm pretty certain that a lot of these 8,9 10 speed autos skip some ratios under some conditons

although the shifts are almost imperceptible....

 

Chevrolet’s First 9-Speed Auto Debuts in 2017 Malibu

http://www.gm.com/mol/m-2016-dec-1206-9speed.html

The new nine-speed has a wider 7.6:1 overall ratio — the difference between the first gear ratio and the top gear ratio — compared to the eight-speed transmission, with a “deep” 4.69 first gear that supports excellent off-the-line acceleration and a “tall” 0.62 top gear for low-rpm highway cruising. That balance optimizes acceleration and fuel economy and reduces engine noise during cruising.

 

“The smaller steps between the gears, compared to the eight-speed, enable smooth, almost imperceptible upshifts, for excellent refinement,” said Nicholson. “No matter the engine torque or vehicle speed, the 9T50 is always in the perfect gear.”

 

 

If anything, the 9AT fills the gap that exist in the 6F at 1-2. and 3-4 shifts but then adds an extra overdrive beyond 6th.

 

 

6F50 Transmission Ratios

 

1st: 4.48

2nd: 2.87

3rd: 1.84

4th: 1.41

5th: 1.00

6th: 0.74

Reverse: 2.88

 

9T50 Transmission Ratios - compared to 6F50

 

1st: 4.69...............(1st 4.49)

2nd: 3.31

3rd: 3.01..............(2nd 2.87)

4th: 2.45

5th: 1.92..............(3rd 1.84)

6th: 1.45..............(4th 1.41)

7th: 1.00..............(5th 1.00)

8th: 0.75..............(6th 0.74)

9th: 0.62

Reverse: 2.96

Edited July 21, 2017 by jpd80