mlhm5 Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 With a commitment to double the number of Superchargers in 2019 and the current rollout of the V2 Supercharger update and upcoming switch to V3 Supercharger, it is difficult for me to see how, except for a home to work based low mileage e car like the Honda Clarity all electric, will be able to compete. No, I do not own one but will take a serious look at the upcoming Model Y. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-v2-supercharger-145-kw-software-update/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Thanks for the info mhlm5 sir! I agree it's incredible how far ahead Tesla is of all the incumbent automakers with the EV charging infrastructure stuff. And they're ahead of everyone else with autonomous vehicle technology too. On Monday, Tesla demonstrated how far it's come with AutoPilot, with Level 5 autonomy expected next year. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4256335-tesla-autonomy-vehicle-day-turn-bullish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 That's still 30 more minutes than I want to spend charging my car. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 The charging times are getting better and better. 35 mins is pretty good. My question is using these batteries so aggressively, will it degrade the life span? Also, what’s the replacement costs? I remember ford using the nicad batteries conservatively to keep life span high. The replacement costs was $7000. I know the new batteries are lithium but anyone has a new battery drill, one min it has power and next it’s done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Those V3 super chargers are going to be real cheap once there is a fire sale over at Tesla. https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/24/investing/tesla-earnings-loss/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted April 24, 2019 Author Share Posted April 24, 2019 How about the cost of driving not counting maintenance? Let ’s assume you own the Model 3 with a 75 kWh battery and you pay the national average cost for power across the United States of 13 cents per kWh, then it will cost $9.75 for a full charge. Given this car has a range of 315 miles, the cost per mile works out to $0.030 per mile or $30.00 per 1000 miles driven. Let's assume that you own a 2019 Ford Fiesta which gets 31 mpg and you pay the national average cost for regular gas $2.842, your cost to drive 1000 miles is $91.67. If you drive your car 15K a year, your cost would be $1375 vs $450 for the Tesla. Teslas sell themselves. Other EVs sell Teslas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted April 24, 2019 Author Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, fordtech1 said: The charging times are getting better and better. 35 mins is pretty good. My question is using these batteries so aggressively, will it degrade the life span? Also, what’s the replacement costs? I remember ford using the nicad batteries conservatively to keep life span high. The replacement costs was $7000. I know the new batteries are lithium but anyone has a new battery drill, one min it has power and next it’s done. Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with a minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period. Tesla will bring the price of the battery pack way down. They would own a five-billion-dollar battery plant if they didn't have that in mind! Edited April 24, 2019 by mlhm5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, mlhm5 said: How about the cost of driving not counting maintenance? Let ’s assume you own the Model 3 with a 75 kWh battery and you pay the national average cost for power across the United States of 13 cents per kWh, then it will cost $9.75 for a full charge. Given this car has a range of 315 miles, the cost per mile works out to $0.030 per mile or $30.00 per 1000 miles driven. Let's assume that you own a 2019 Ford Fiesta which gets 31 mpg and you pay the national average cost for regular gas $2.842, your cost to drive 1000 miles is $91.67. If you drive your car 15K a year, your cost would be $1375 vs $450 for the Tesla. Teslas sell themselves. Other EVs sell Teslas. Ford cmax - $24,000 base, 40mpg Model 3 - $36,000 (after tax credit) base Granted 2 completely different vehicles. So if you are saving $600 a year in fuel (40mpg instead of 31 in your example equates to $1,065 a year in fuel cost), it would take you 20 years to break even (taking maintenance out of it). Just saying.. Edited April 25, 2019 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Well, mlhm5 is back and with a vengeance....this time though, he has a friend to back up his ridiculous prognostications.....rperez817, the other Tesla cheerleader....now, I am waiting for T-Stag to make an appearance. Anyhoo....welcome back mlhm5.....this is going to be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 3 hours ago, twintornados said: .rperez817, the other Tesla cheerleader.. Thanks for the new job, but Tesla doesn't need "cheerleaders". As mhlm5 said, Teslas sell themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 3 hours ago, twintornados said: Well, mlhm5 is back and with a vengeance....this time though, he has a friend to back up his ridiculous prognostications.....rperez817, the other Tesla cheerleader....now, I am waiting for T-Stag to make an appearance. Anyhoo....welcome back mlhm5.....this is going to be fun. He actually is sounding a lot like Bloggin over at FIN.......nonstop Tesla praise every post. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Thanks for the new job, but Tesla doesn't need "cheerleaders". As mhlm5 said, Teslas sell themselves. Yeah...because he is a solid source of good intel.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Here’s my take on Tesla. I actually like most of the products. I think they have a pretty cool element to them. The running of the company, not so much. Tesla fans act like these cars are the end all be all. When in fact they are a good start. They don’t make money yet, they are expensive as hell to repair, getting parts is limited, Quality is improving, but for $100k vehicle with less moving parts, I expect better. Let these things get in the hands of millions of customers like all other manufacturers and see what happens. There would be tremendous hurdles to overcome. Right now such a relative small sample size that not all circumstances have been real world tested. Would I lease a model S? Yes probably if it fit my needs and I had a service center close by. Do I think Elon musk is a genius that walks on water? No. Does he have guts and can talk people out of their money? Most definitely. I do commend Tesla for what they have accomplished thus far. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 I forgot to add one question in my last post. I know the fast charging generates a lot of heat. My understanding is BMW had to add cooling to the port to keep temperatures down. How much power is lost during fast charging? Since it causes heat to fast charge does that mean there is a considerable amount of loss energy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, fordtech1 said: I forgot to add one question in my last post. I know the fast charging generates a lot of heat. My understanding is BMW had to add cooling to the port to keep temperatures down. How much power is lost during fast charging? Since it causes heat to fast charge does that mean there is a considerable amount of loss energy? Good question, there's still a lot more development needed on battery chemistry to overcome internal resistance to charging. Tesla and Panasonic will stick with Lithium for as long as they can fiddling with anode materials but the real answer is a new battery medium with much lower resistance and even faster charging, most people would take a five minute charge even if just 150 miles. The moment charging becomes more like filling with gasoline, the range anxiety goes away and smaller, lighter battery packs become the norm, lowering costs even further. Edited April 25, 2019 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, fordtech1 said: I forgot to add one question in my last post. I know the fast charging generates a lot of heat. My understanding is BMW had to add cooling to the port to keep temperatures down. How much power is lost during fast charging? Since it causes heat to fast charge does that mean there is a considerable amount of loss energy? I doubt the heat represents a large percentage of the total energy but it would be at least a slight loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) Don't companies like Tesla also have cooling circuits for batteries as they discharge? and also heating circuits for freezing cold winters when EVs don't like to work. Edit, Also gotta love people who think that EVs equal ultra cheap motoring..rainbows and unicorns.. It's unrealistic to thing such a huge energy transfer can take place without financial consequence.. Edited April 25, 2019 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 36 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Don't companies like Tesla also have cooling circuits for batteries as they discharge? They probably do. I just know that bmw does it as I was talking to a BMW guy. We were discussing charge time. Heat is an issue. It was my understanding that just the higher level chargers needing cooling circuits around charge port. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OX1 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Why can't they build a model 3 that does 0-60 in high 5's to 6, high 13 or-14.0 second 1/4 mile (plenty of speed for 95% of those on the road), has AWD, mid size sedan size, 380-400 mile range, has decently nice interior finishes with AC, power options, heated seats, halfway decent stereo, and be bought with discounts right around $25-26K? You can still get 18 Fusion Sports that do all that for that price. Can't they do 2 smaller motors, add more battery pack, and use less power so it's only fast, not ludicrous, then get more range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailhiker Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Along the same lines...why can't they bring out a model 3 without that goofy duck-bill front end. I don't know how much extended range it gives them, but it sure isn't worth having to look at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 31 minutes ago, OX1 said: Why can't they build a model 3 that does 0-60 in high 5's to 6, high 13 or-14.0 second 1/4 mile (plenty of speed for 95% of those on the road), has AWD, mid size sedan size, 380-400 mile range, has decently nice interior finishes with AC, power options, heated seats, halfway decent stereo, and be bought with discounts right around $25-26K? You can still get 18 Fusion Sports that do all that for that price. Can't they do 2 smaller motors, add more battery pack, and use less power so it's only fast, not ludicrous, then get more range? Because it’s Elon Musk. He’s so over the top. I mean he sent a roadster to orbit! Everything has to be “ludicrous”. It’s the billionaire way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 34 minutes ago, OX1 said: Can't they do 2 smaller motors, add more battery pack, and use less power so it's only fast, not ludicrous, then get more range? I don't think it works that way. Range is really a function of the battery size and more battery cells add more weight and cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OX1 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 16 hours ago, akirby said: I don't think it works that way. Range is really a function of the battery size and more battery cells add more weight and cost. Find it hard to believe it's not also a function of motor size and power usage. I've read electrics don't have as high a top end speed due to being geared for accel. So re-gear them or use a 2 speed trans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 The size of the motor determines the max possible output but it doesn't reduce range very much. Electric motors are over 90% efficient and they only run when propelling the vehicle (no idle time like an ICE). 2 smaller motors are probably less efficient than one large motor. Range is affected more by temperature and battery size than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OX1 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 34 minutes ago, akirby said: The size of the motor determines the max possible output but it doesn't reduce range very much. Electric motors are over 90% efficient and they only run when propelling the vehicle (no idle time like an ICE). 2 smaller motors are probably less efficient than one large motor. Range is affected more by temperature and battery size than anything else. Then they are going to have an issue with the masses if it takes 50 grand to get AWD. We paid about that for our 17 fusion (Sport) and 17 escape (2.0 SE), both AWD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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