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silvrsvt

Ford pushes to overtake Toyota hybrid sales

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Why not, they will pass GM to be the number one U.S. based car company this year. 

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I can't decide if the failing Prius sales figures are because sedans as a whole aren't selling? Or because gas prices have stabilized? Or because Toyota out-weirded even its own quirky customer base with the "it hurts my eyes to look at it" styling?

Edited by BoomerSooner

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4 minutes ago, BoomerSooner said:

I can't decide if the failing Prius sales figures are because sedans as a whole aren't selling? Or because gas prices have stabilized? Or because Toyota out-weirded even its own quirky customer base with the "it hurts my eyes to look at it" styling?

Probably a combination of all of the above.

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10 minutes ago, BoomerSooner said:

I can't decide if the failing Prius sales figures are because sedans as a whole aren't selling? Or because gas prices have stabilized? Or because Toyota out-weirded even its own quirky customer base with the "it hurts my eyes to look at it" styling?

Also that a lot of those buyers have moved on to fully electric, Model 3, Bolt, and Leaf. Prius is among the top 3 vehicles traded in for those models. 

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From the linked article: "Executives have said every utility that is either redesigned or added to its portfolio will come with an electrified option, whether it's a hybrid, plug-in hybrid or fully electric."

Shouldn't that include Bronco?

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19 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

Shouldn't that include Bronco?

Well lots of rumors right now about that-but IMO if they are true, we will see a hybrid Bronco when the next gen Ranger launches 18-24 months later in the worst case. 

I'm really interested in one-my short commute into work has a ton of stop and go and sitting in a line to get into the place-I saw a difference of about .5 MPG without traffic last week (Spring break and Passover) with my ride into work. I'm planning on getting one in 2021, if things work out, but I'll still get it without the hybrid if I can't get at that time. 

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9 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

From the linked article: "Executives have said every utility that is either redesigned or added to its portfolio will come with an electrified option, whether it's a hybrid, plug-in hybrid or fully electric."

Shouldn't that include Bronco?

Yes but not at launch.  I suspect it will come a year or two later.

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Joy Falotico, Lincoln's president, said customer research found that would-be buyers were fearful of giving up power if they chose hybrid powertrains.

 

Duh, no shit sherlock. Fords past Hybrid powertrain experience doesn't help the perception of their Hybrids performance. The so called new Mondeo wagon Hybrid is getting lambasted by the reviewers in Europe for it's lackluster performance. Great around town but once on the highway it's a weezy slug.

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Well lots of rumors right now about that-but IMO if they are true, we will see a hybrid Bronco when the next gen Ranger launches 18-24 months later in the worst case. 

I'm really interested in one-my short commute into work has a ton of stop and go and sitting in a line to get into the place-I saw a difference of about .5 MPG without traffic last week (Spring break and Passover) with my ride into work. I'm planning on getting one in 2021, if things work out, but I'll still get it without the hybrid if I can't get at that time. 

I'm quite interested in one too.  LOTS of stop and go traffic on the highway, plus hybrids are exempt from express lanes charges so I'd be able to zip by much of the traffic 😈 

6 minutes ago, MKII said:

Joy Falotico, Lincoln's president, said customer research found that would-be buyers were fearful of giving up power if they chose hybrid powertrains.

 

Duh, no shit sherlock. Fords past Hybrid powertrain experience doesn't help the perception of their Hybrids performance. The so called new Mondeo wagon Hybrid is getting lambasted by the reviewers in Europe for it's lackluster performance. Great around town but once on the highway it's a weezy slug.

Well, it's not designed to be a performance hybrid, so naturally its going to have "lackluster performance" in that regard.

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Good article. Toyota has their own push to maintain the lead they have now on hybrids. In the U.S. market, they just added a Corolla hybrid and Lexus UX hybrid, plus new versions of Camry hybrid, Avalon hybrid, RAV4 hybrid, Lexus ES hybrid, and Highlander hybrid.

The competition between Toyota and Ford with hybrid vehicles, plus the competition in BEV technology between all of the incumbent automakers and companies like Tesla and Rivian, means that the next few years will be great for consumers looking for a high performance yet efficient car or truck.

Edited by rperez817

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Well lots of rumors right now about that-but IMO if they are true, we will see a hybrid Bronco when the next gen Ranger launches 18-24 months later in the worst case. 

I'm really interested in one-my short commute into work has a ton of stop and go and sitting in a line to get into the place-I saw a difference of about .5 MPG without traffic last week (Spring break and Passover) with my ride into work. I'm planning on getting one in 2021, if things work out, but I'll still get it without the hybrid if I can't get at that time. 

FCA already announced a PHEV Wrangler and has had a few mules running around.  I believe it will also be MY 2020 or 21. Interesting that the 'mild hybrid' 4 cylinder turbo Wranglers have been moving quite slowly from dealer lots. 

If the new hybrid Explorer/Corsair has 315hp,  a hybrid Bronco should be ok for power. 

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37 minutes ago, Donaldo said:

If the new hybrid Explorer/Corsair has 315hp,  a hybrid Bronco should be ok for power

If it even still exists 

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Will Ford stick with hybrids and continue to develop and upgrade? My wife owned a hybrid Escape and loved it. After 9 years, wanted something newer. Ford choices were C Max, Fusion, and MKZ. All were poor substitutes for her old Escape. Checked Toyota RAV4 hybrid and a preowned Lexus RX 450h. Both were far more advanced than her Escape as befitting a leader in hybrids at least 2 generations newer. The inability of Ford to offer an improvement over the old Escape hybrid cost them a sale to Toyota. She was a very likely buyer of a Ford product.  Since we looked, Toyota is showing a new RAV 4 with much improved mileage and improved features. The Highlander and RX are being improved next year. Ford will find this difficult as it's current offerings are either dead (CMax) or on death watch (Fusion, MKZ) by proclamation of the CEO. So when and if these hybrids arrive they will need to convince buyers they are as good as competitors that have continuously improved their product. Or offer an advantage such as a lower price. After the Fusion / CMax gas mileage debacle, they can't claim higher MPG. Who would believe it?

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12 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Will Ford stick with hybrids and continue to develop and upgrade? My wife owned a hybrid Escape and loved it. After 9 years, wanted something newer. Ford choices were C Max, Fusion, and MKZ. All were poor substitutes for her old Escape. Checked Toyota RAV4 hybrid and a preowned Lexus RX 450h. Both were far more advanced than her Escape as befitting a leader in hybrids at least 2 generations newer. The inability of Ford to offer an improvement over the old Escape hybrid cost them a sale to Toyota. She was a very likely buyer of a Ford product.  Since we looked, Toyota is showing a new RAV 4 with much improved mileage and improved features. The Highlander and RX are being improved next year. Ford will find this difficult as it's current offerings are either dead (CMax) or on death watch (Fusion, MKZ) by proclamation of the CEO. So when and if these hybrids arrive they will need to convince buyers they are as good as competitors that have continuously improved their product. Or offer an advantage such as a lower price. After the Fusion / CMax gas mileage debacle, they can't claim higher MPG. Who would believe it?

Thanks for sharing your experiences paintguy sir. I haven't found any technical details on Ford's upcoming hybrid powertrains. But their announcements over the past 6 months about electrification suggest Ford does plan to upgrade and improve those hybrids. I don't know if Ford will continue to use the power-split hybrid architecture they licensed from Toyota 15 years ago, or migrate to a different architecture like parallel two clutch (P2).

Great point about Toyota's newest hybrids. Toyota announced recently they will open up 24,000 hybrid related patents to other automakers. But Toyota still has a "secret sauce" with their hybrids. The newest Toyota hybrid cars and SUVs have an amazing combination of fuel efficiency and performance other automakers find hard to match. 52 mpg and 16 sec quarter mile time in 2019 Camry hybrid, 40 mpg and similar performance in 2019 RAV4 AWD hybrid.

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Sadly when one thinks hybrids its yota...ford is not even on the radar of those seeking hybrids....and yes the current prius design is hellish looking...

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7 hours ago, snooter said:

Sadly when one thinks hybrids its yota...ford is not even on the radar of those seeking hybrids.

Toyota certainly is #1 now with hybrids, but Ford is doing a good job with Fusion Hybrid. I remember ice-capades mentioned that in his region, most 2019 Fusions for dealer stock were the hybrid version. I'm pretty sure Fusion Hybrid outsold Camry Hybrid in 1Q 2019.

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4 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

.I remember ice-capades mentioned that in his region, most 2019 Fusions for dealer stock were the hybrid version. I'm pretty sure Fusion Hybrid outsold Camry Hybrid in 1Q 2019.

I also remember him saying that there isn't much other options when it come to the Fusion for retail stock-its what Ford is providing. 

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I think the thing with hybrids up to this point, it has been performance or economy. Nobody has really hit the sweet spot off performance, price, minimum/no comprises, and economy. If all you care about is FE, then a Prius is nice I guess. It's an ugly penalty box to drive and reminds you of it when driving. Lexus and Acura have had performance hybrids but cost/comprises and not much FE benefit have been a reason they aren't setting the world on fire.

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6 hours ago, jcartwright99 said:

I think the thing with hybrids up to this point, it has been performance or economy. Nobody has really hit the sweet spot off performance, price, minimum/no comprises, and economy. 

Camry Hybrid & Accord Hybrid come very close. Both cars achieve 47 mpg combined or better, deliver performance that's as good or better than the non-hybrid 4-cylinder automatic versions, do not lose any trunk space compared to the non-hybrid versions due to the HV battery placement, and start at about $27k or less.

Fusion Hybrid is also competitive. Performance is comparable or better to the 1.5L or 2.5L versions, but with much better fuel economy and smoothness. Trunk space is reduced in the hybrid version though.

Edited by rperez817

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On 5/8/2019 at 8:10 AM, jcartwright99 said:

I think the thing with hybrids up to this point, it has been performance or economy. Nobody has really hit the sweet spot off performance, price, minimum/no comprises, and economy. If all you care about is FE, then a Prius is nice I guess. It's an ugly penalty box to drive and reminds you of it when driving. Lexus and Acura have had performance hybrids but cost/comprises and not much FE benefit have been a reason they aren't setting the world on fire.

The new RAV4 hybrid is the most fuel efficient RAV4 and at the same time is also the highest performing RAV4.  Since the RAV4 is the highest selling Toyota SUV these days, this should be significant.  

Yes Toyota has come a long way on these hybrids, the 2019 RAV4 (all in AWD) gets 39mpg and has 219 hp, whereas the old Escape AWD hybrids were one of the slowest SUVs on the road with 150-170 hp and would top out  around 30mpg. 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Donaldo said:

The new RAV4 hybrid is the most fuel efficient RAV4 and at the same time is also the highest performing RAV4.  Since the RAV4 is the highest selling Toyota SUV these days, this should be significant.  

Yes Toyota has come a long way on these hybrids, the 2019 RAV4 (all in AWD) gets 39mpg and has 219 hp, whereas the old Escape AWD hybrids were one of the slowest SUVs on the road with 150-170 hp and would top out  around 30mpg. 

 

 

 

Huh, I remember the time I felt pretty good about my MY2000 VW Passat V6 AWD with 190 hp...

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The Escape Hybrid was 177 hp and certainly was faster than a Prius or Honda Insight of the same vintage. It also achieved its EPA rated 34 and 31 MPG, unless you drove it like you stole it. The part that is disappointing is that Ford was the 1st hybrid SUV. Then dropping it in favor of the "What the heck is it" CMAX. The Fusion when introduced was widely promoted, then ignored like all Ford sedans. If you wanted a family sedan with the luggage space of a Mustang, here is your car. If you never buy more than 1 bag of groceries or travel, have we got a plug in hybrid for you. If you don't drive more than  60 miles per day, can we interest you in an electric Focus? Management thought this was all that was needed. I know much work has gone on "behind the scenes", but the average customer hasn't seen any of this. The green aspirations of top management looks like just talk from a company that makes Trucks. 

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8 hours ago, paintguy said:

If you don't drive more than  60 miles per day, can we interest you in an electric Focus? Management thought this was all that was needed. 

The Focus electric was a CARB compliance car

What it boils down to is that with lower gas prices, paying for a hybrid that didn't offer anything beyond better MPG is a hard sell. 

Its roughly a $900 a year savings getting a Fusion Hybird over a Fusion 1.5L at 25000 mile a year at $2.89 for gas. That works out to roughly saving $17.30 week in gas...

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