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Ford is basically growing sales with little /no incentives and conquest of other brands,

that means they're not buying market share. I don't know how this can be construed

as crazy when we've told people that Ford isn't interested in a meteoric rise of Ranger,

they want richest product mix that fits their production calendar.

Edited by jpd80

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49 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Of course, it is possible that Toyota succeeded in a segment that was almost gifted to it by GM and Ford 

it's easy to be the dominant marque when the two champs above step back for a decade.

 

Good point jpd80 sir. The suspension or discontinuation of 4 midsize truck models between 2009 and 2015 (Dodge Dakota, Chevrolet Colorado, GMC Canyon, Ford Ranger) must have helped Toyota Tacoma become the single most dominant pickup truck model in the U.S.

 

21 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

Also Ford in one of current programs it does NOT give additional conquest cash to Tacoma/Tundra/Ridgeline/Frontier owners.

 

Very interesting, thanks for the info jasonj80 sir. This is a smart move on Ford's part. It's easier to cater to existing Ford truck owners, and maybe to Chevy owners. CarGurus found that Toyota pickup truck owners are the most loyal in the industry (41% would not consider another brand). Ford truck owners are the least loyal (27% would not consider another brand) and Chevrolet the second least loyal (28% not willing to consider another brand). https://investors.cargurus.com/news-releases/news-release-details/cargurus-survey-finds-brand-and-category-loyalty-decreasing

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

 

Ford is basically growing sales with little /no incentives and conquest of other brands,

that means they're not buying market share. I don't know how this can be construed

as crazy when we've told people that Ford isn't interested in a meteoric rise of Ranger,

they want richest product mix that fits their production calendar.

 

I’m gonna challenge you on little/no incentives. Ford is advertising 2.7 F150’s with over $11,000 in rebates and average dealer discounts. Also big rebates on Edge, Escape, and Fusion.  Not that its a huge deal, but I see Moodys has reduced Fords credit rating to junk status. 

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4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

 

F-Series and Tacoma are of course both class leaders in sales. But Tacoma is more dominant. In 2018, it captured 47% of all sales in the midsize truck segment. In the past decade, Tacoma had market share greater than 50% in certain years. 

 

F-Series represented 38% of sales in the fullsize truck segment in 2018. Not sure if its market share ever exceeded 50%.

 

What has more (relevant) competition? F-Series or Tacoma?

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38 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

 

I’m gonna challenge you on little/no incentives. Ford is advertising 2.7 F150’s with over $11,000 in rebates and average dealer discounts. Also big rebates on Edge, Escape, and Fusion.  Not that its a huge deal, but I see Moodys has reduced Fords credit rating to junk status. 

I can see how my post was misleading, I was referring to Ford building Ranger sales, not Ford sales in general.

and yeah, this time of year at model run out there's all kinds of incentives but what I've come to realize is that

the bigger the incentive, the more likely the product is either hard to shift, not exactly what buyers want,  MY'19,

just too many built or all of the above. Normally, it's $11K off a $50K truck package or something like that where

the buyer ends paying more than they originally intended because of perceived value add.

Edited by jpd80

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9 hours ago, fordmantpw said:

 

What has more (relevant) competition? F-Series or Tacoma?

 

It's a draw.

In the U.S. fullsize pickup truck market, there are 6 models that compete with each other for customers. Chevy Silverado, Ford F-Series, GMC Sierra, Nissan Titan, Ram pickup, and Toyota Tundra.

In the U.S. midsize pickup truck market, there are now 7 models. Chevy Colorado, Ford Ranger, Honda Ridgeline, GMC Canyon, Jeep Gladiator, Nissan Frontier, and Toyota Tacoma.

 

Fullsize truck market segment is much larger in terms of total sales. Over 2.4 million sold in the U.S. last year, compared to just over 500k midsize trucks. But midsize truck segment is growing much faster, sales up 16% in 2018. Fullsize pickup truck sales were up 2% in 2018.

Edited by rperez817

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18 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

It's a draw.

In the U.S. fullsize pickup truck market, there are 6 models that compete with each other for customers. Chevy Silverado, Ford F-Series, GMC Sierra, Nissan Titan, Ram pickup, and Toyota Tundra.

In the U.S. midsize pickup truck market, there are now 7 models. Chevy Colorado, Ford Ranger, Honda Ridgeline, GMC Canyon, Jeep Gladiator, Nissan Frontier, and Toyota Tacoma.

 

Fullsize truck market segment is much larger in terms of total sales. Over 2.4 million sold in the U.S. last year, compared to just over 500k midsize trucks. But midsize truck segment is growing much faster, sales up 16% in 2018. Fullsize pickup truck sales were up 2% in 2018.

 

I lied.  

 

There is no other market that is as competitive nor as profitable as full sized pickups.   Each of the 3 major players outsells the entire midsized truck segment.   The number of models and options and the level of innovation over the last 70+ years simply cannot be matched by Tacoma or Ranger or Canyorado.

 

Also, your fascination with percentages as a measure of success without regard to actual volume is becoming tiresome.

 

If you sold 10 vehicles last year and 110 this year that's a 1000% increase.    If I go from 100,000 to 110,000 that's only a 10% increase.

 

But I sold 10,000 more vehicles and you only sold 100 more.   On what planet does that make you more successful?

 

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30 minutes ago, akirby said:

There is no other market that is as competitive nor as profitable as full sized pickups.   Each of the 3 major players outsells the entire midsized truck segment.   The number of models and options and the level of innovation over the last 70+ years simply cannot be matched by Tacoma or Ranger or Canyorado.

 

The pickup truck market overall and full size pickups in particular in the U.S. are super profitable, sure. But levels of competitiveness and innovation in the pickup truck segment lag behind passenger cars and crossovers. Both can be explained by the market distortions caused by 25% tariff on imported pickup trucks.

Edited by rperez817

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10 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

The pickup truck market overall and full size pickups in particular in the U.S. are super profitable, sure. But levels of competitiveness and innovation in the pickup truck segment lag behind passenger cars and crossovers. Both can be explained by the market distortions caused by 25% tariff on imported pickup trucks.

 

Are you insane?  Name one innovation for cars and crossovers that aren't generic to all vehicles.

 

On the truck side you have 1000 lb/ft turbo diesel engines, trick tailgates, hitch systems, tow/haul transmission features.  Pro trailer backup assist from Ford.   Invisible trailer from GM.  RFID tool tracking.   Innovative bed storage and cargo options.

 

F series engines:    3.3L V6, 2.7LEB, 3.0L TDI, 3.5LEB, 5.0L V8, 6.2L V8, 6.7L TDI, 7.3L V8

Tacoma engines:   2.7L I4, 3.5L V6

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12 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Good point jpd80 sir. The suspension or discontinuation of 4 midsize truck models between 2009 and 2015 (Dodge Dakota, Chevrolet Colorado, GMC Canyon, Ford Ranger) must have helped Toyota Tacoma become the single most dominant pickup truck model in the U.S.

 

 

Very interesting, thanks for the info jasonj80 sir. This is a smart move on Ford's part. It's easier to cater to existing Ford truck owners, and maybe to Chevy owners. CarGurus found that Toyota pickup truck owners are the most loyal in the industry (41% would not consider another brand). Ford truck owners are the least loyal (27% would not consider another brand) and Chevrolet the second least loyal (28% not willing to consider another brand). https://investors.cargurus.com/news-releases/news-release-details/cargurus-survey-finds-brand-and-category-loyalty-decreasing


Agree, when you're the only capable truck on the market it helps increase your share, the Frontier was garbage when it came out. If I were in the market it would be between a Ranger and a Tacoma. Tacoma resale value is insane, which means people with 3-4 year old ones can easily upgrade to newer models. 

That study is absolute S*** the sample size is way to small to get any meaning full data, it would never pass peer review at any reputable university.  "In February 2019 , CarGurus surveyed 1,067 current and former pickup truck owners. Among them, 581 currently own at least one pickup truck and 486 had owned a truck previously, but no longer do. Among the current pickup truck owners, 195 own a Ford pickup truck, 154 own a Chevrolet pickup truck, 106 own a Toyota pickup truck, and 101 own a Dodge/Ram pickup truck." There was 1.4 million pickup trucks sold in 2018 - This is nothing more than clickbait. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, rperez817 said:

CarGurus found that Toyota pickup truck owners are the most loyal in the industry (41% would not consider another brand). Ford truck owners are the least loyal (27% would not consider another brand) and Chevrolet the second least loyal (28% not willing to consider another brand). https://investors.cargurus.com/news-releases/news-release-details/cargurus-survey-finds-brand-and-category-loyalty-decreasing

 

In addition to pointing out the super small sample size, let's look at absolute numbers.

 

41% of Toyota truck buyers is around 148K buyers (using 2018 sales) who are loyal to Toyota.

28% of Ford and GM truck sales is over 280K who are loyal to those brands.

 

Would you rather have 280K loyal buyers or 148K loyal buyers?   Stop looking at only percentages.

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49 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

Name one innovation for cars and crossovers that aren't generic to all vehicles.

 

Zero emissions powertrain (BEV or FCEV). No pickup truck currently in production for retail sale in the U.S. market offer them. Only passenger cars and crossovers do.

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13 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Good point jpd80 sir. The suspension or discontinuation of 4 midsize truck models between 2009 and 2015 (Dodge Dakota, Chevrolet Colorado, GMC Canyon, Ford Ranger) must have helped Toyota Tacoma become the single most dominant pickup truck model in the U.S.

 

 

Very interesting, thanks for the info jasonj80 sir. This is a smart move on Ford's part. It's easier to cater to existing Ford truck owners, and maybe to Chevy owners. CarGurus found that Toyota pickup truck owners are the most loyal in the industry (41% would not consider another brand). Ford truck owners are the least loyal (27% would not consider another brand) and Chevrolet the second least loyal (28% not willing to consider another brand). https://investors.cargurus.com/news-releases/news-release-details/cargurus-survey-finds-brand-and-category-loyalty-decreasing

 

So being a market of 1 (Frontier and Ridgeline are meh efforts at best), I'd hope they're "dominating" the segment as the default/only choice.  Guess I'll go look up some numbers and make a chart.

 

And yeah, the 800-900k a year F-series sales and best selling for what 40+ years now definitely says that Ford owners are the least loyal......

 

12 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

 

I’m gonna challenge you on little/no incentives. Ford is advertising 2.7 F150’s with over $11,000 in rebates and average dealer discounts. Also big rebates on Edge, Escape, and Fusion.  Not that its a huge deal, but I see Moodys has reduced Fords credit rating to junk status. 

 

He was referring to Ranger specifically.  But also those are models on the way out.

 

7 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Zero emissions powertrain (BEV or FCEV). No pickup truck currently in production for retail sale in the U.S. market offer them. Only passenger cars and crossovers do.

 

Because it's not realistic yet.  Don't worry, Ford will have that box checked next year for you.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Zero emissions powertrain (BEV or FCEV). No pickup truck currently in production for retail sale in the U.S. market offer them. Only passenger cars and crossovers do.

 

Ah but Ford did sell a BEV Ranger from 98 - 2002 around the same time as the GM EV1.   So Ford was actually 20+ years ahead of the competition for a truck BEV.

 

Ford has also been producing trucks that run on propane since the 1960s - well before alternative fuel passenger cars and crossovers.

 

Hybrid trucks and BEV prototypes already exist so the innovation is complete.

 

You're not going to win this one - just let it go.

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14 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Good point jpd80 sir. The suspension or discontinuation of 4 midsize truck models between 2009 and 2015 (Dodge Dakota, Chevrolet Colorado, GMC Canyon, Ford Ranger) must have helped Toyota Tacoma become the single most dominant pickup truck model in the U.S.

 

Very interesting, thanks for the info jasonj80 sir. This is a smart move on Ford's part. It's easier to cater to existing Ford truck owners, and maybe to Chevy owners. CarGurus found that Toyota pickup truck owners are the most loyal in the industry (41% would not consider another brand). Ford truck owners are the least loyal (27% would not consider another brand) and Chevrolet the second least loyal (28% not willing to consider another brand). https://investors.cargurus.com/news-releases/news-release-details/cargurus-survey-finds-brand-and-category-loyalty-decreasing

This pole isn't even close to reality...there's absolutely no way the Ford F-Series could be the number one selling truck for 42 years straight with only 27% brand loyalty.  If anything, it's the other way around.

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1 hour ago, akirby said:

F series engines:    3.3L V6, 2.7LEB, 3.0L TDI, 3.5LEB, 5.0L V8, 6.2L V8, 6.7L TDI, 7.3L V8

Tacoma engines:   2.7L I4, 3.5L V6

 

You can even include the FHEV and BEV F-150 coming next year if you really want to be technical. No way Toyota will do that on the Tacoma OR Tundra. 

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4 minutes ago, CoolScoop said:

This pole isn't even close to reality...there's absolutely no way the Ford F-Series could be the number one selling truck for 42 years straight with only 27% brand loyalty.  If anything, it's the other way around.

 

If you read it closely that's not what it actually said.   It said only 27% would ONLY consider buying a Ford and nothing else.  Doesn't mean the other 73% wouldn't buy another Ford.

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

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Wow - you guys got fired up over that Tacoma dominates statement - I dis-agree with your downplaying it, but that's ok, I know better than to debate with the cool kids.  I can't help but think F-series is peeking back over its shoulder at Dodge Ram - who are those guys?  Don't say it can't happen, if 3 years ago someone predicted Fiat/Chrysler would out-sell Ford in the US market, guys like RJ would have gone absolutely crazy dispelling that notion.  

 

 

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40 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Don't worry, Ford will have that box checked next year for you.

 

10 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

You can even include the FHEV and BEV F-150 coming next year if you really want to be technical. No way Toyota will do that on the Tacoma OR Tundra. 

 

BEV F-150 is going to be a game changer. Once it's mass produced, it will be the biggest innovation in the pickup truck market in decades, if not in the entire history of pickup trucks. And I think Ford will also be the first to add Level 4 autonomous vehicle capability to pickup trucks. Right now no pickup truck even offers Level 2 automation.

 

I agree fuzzymoomoo sir about Toyota's BEV efforts. Toyota was and still is a laggard in that area. Maybe they'll surprise everybody with BEV versions of the next generation Tacoma and Tundra in a few years. But it doesn't seem likely.

Edited by rperez817

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9 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

BEV F-150 is going to be a game changer. Once it's mass produced, it will be the biggest innovation in the pickup truck market in decades, if not in the entire history of pickup trucks.

 

 

You have truly mastered the art of hyperbole.

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17 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

BEV F-150 is going to be a game changer. Once it's mass produced, it will be the biggest innovation in the pickup truck market in decades, if not in the entire history of pickup trucks.

 

Detroit Electric pickup truck, circa 1913.

 

Detroit+Electric+Circa+1913.png

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28 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

If you read it closely that's not what it actually said.   It said only 27% would ONLY consider buying a Ford and nothing else.  Doesn't mean the other 73% wouldn't buy another Ford.

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Which shows who the real fan boys are.....Ford truck owners will buy the best truck, Toyota owners will buy Yota no matter what.....which there is a lot of no matter what IMO.

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26 minutes ago, Kev-Mo said:

Wow - you guys got fired up over that Tacoma dominates statement - I dis-agree with your downplaying it, but that's ok, I know better than to debate with the cool kids.  I can't help but think F-series is peeking back over its shoulder at Dodge Ram - who are those guys?  Don't say it can't happen, if 3 years ago someone predicted Fiat/Chrysler would out-sell Ford in the US market, guys like RJ would have gone absolutely crazy dispelling that notion. 

 

Toyota is the market leader.  No question.   Current Ranger is a calculated stop gap solution - they chose to put more resources into the next gen and limit the investment in the current gen.  That should pay off big in 2 years with more engine options and more configurations.   Given what Ford has done with F series compared to Tundra I guess the question would be what do you think Toyota will do with Tacoma that Ford can't match or outdo from a feature/styling/performance perspective?  They could do a hybrid or BEV if the market dictates.

 

There is only so much Ford can do - Toyota loyalists will buy Tacomas no matter what.  Ford just has to build the best Ranger they can and ensure good profitability.  If that means they take over #1 in sales, great.  If not then so be it.   Profitability is more important than sales.

 

Same for F series.  I'm not sure what else they can do beyond improving the interior (which we've already seen) and adding more powertrain options including hybrids and BEVs (also already planned).

 

You act like there is something Ford is not doing or that they're ignoring the competition but I don't see where that is the case.   If other companies are willing to buy market share at the expense of profit there isn't much Ford can or should do about that long term.

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