akirby Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 1 hour ago, mlhm5 said: When you buy an ICE car, you operate it the same way since they were invented. It can drive for many hundreds of miles before refueling. If it needs gas, you go to a gas station—they’re everywhere. If you want to tour America, you don’t even think of, let alone worry about, where you’ll be able to make a pit stop. Most of that is true for Tesla vehicles. None of that is true for non-Tesla vehicles. Not true for Tesla’s either. You have to plan your trip around superchargers and waiting and most aren’t willing to do that. Most ICE vehicles can only go 300-350 miles on a tank. Being able to charge overnight at home and drive 300 miles per day is just as if not more convenient for the majority of potential BEV buyers. Until Mach-E non Tesla BEVs have either been super expensive or boring compliance vehicles like Bolt. It will be many years before the charging time and locations are sufficient for BEVs to be an only vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 3 hours ago, mlhm5 said: When you buy an ICE car, you operate it the same way since they were invented. It can drive for many hundreds of miles before refueling. If it needs gas, you go to a gas station—they’re everywhere. If you want to tour America, you don’t even think of, let alone worry about, where you’ll be able to make a pit stop. Most of that is true for Tesla vehicles. None of that is true for non-Tesla vehicles. That's not true for Tesla, at least not for me. In the city I live in, there are Tesla charging stations, but they are not convenient for me. And you would still have the long wait to charge the car. On long trips, we just drive where we want. Not enough charging stations on some of those trips. If charging times are almost as quick as filling up a car with gas in 10 years, I may replace my Mustang with an EV. Options will have to improve, though. Tesla doesn't make anything I want. Other than the Model S (too big to be a Mustang replacement), I just don't like the Tesla models that are currently offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 3 hours ago, mlhm5 said: My point exactly. Mainstream car buyers must be convinced that charging a battery is at least as convenient as filling a gas tank. On trips, it isn't as convenient. Won't be for several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted December 28, 2019 Author Share Posted December 28, 2019 On 12/22/2019 at 4:41 PM, Assimilator said: I have a hard time believing that the future of EVs requires everybody to build out their own proprietary charging network like Tesla. I don't know what people expect Ford to do about that, it's a network that has to be built out by market forces or cooperation between all the other automakers. Ultimately that may yield WAY more charging stations than Tesla could ever hope to fund for their own cars. It's just not going to happen instantly and time is on everybody's side when it comes to EV tech because it's rapidly advancing. Ford ultimately needs time to develop their cars and to sell to and support their EV customers. What Tesla has pulled off took time and it wasn't easy, essentially only they can do what they did and this would have NEVER happened at a traditional automaker who can't run any business on significant risk and loss. It's also weird to me that anybody would see this as a Ford exclusive problem, every automaker is scrambling to figure out what to do about Tesla. Ford certainly is no further behind than anybody else, and perhaps they are further ahead on the right products. But again, it takes time and this will remain a small market while the infrastructure and tech matures. Come back in 10 years and then judge. Nobody can accuse Ford of sitting on their bums, I don't know what more people want from them. Hybrids, PHEVs, BEVs with Tesla matching range and performance. Even a coveted Rivian Skateboard underpinning a Lincoln. They even partnered with VW to get the affordable EVs flowing in Europe. I don't know anybody else with such a comprehensive approach across multiple markets and segments. I've constantly said that I love Tesla, but I know Ford can actually make the BEV I want. A utility with the functionality and amenities that Tesla is lacking. Tesla doesn't have amenities I consider to be basic (Android Auto, CarPlay, Voice control, heated steering wheel, ventilated seats, wireless charging, memory recall, etc.). Telsa's AV tech is far ahead right now, but Ford's AV technology also involves attention monitoring which Tesla is not doing and it may become mandatory and essential for the tech to work. Tesla still has time to update their tech, but the pace of change at Tesla is really slow now. Volvo did a study and found out that the #1 reason that consumers (58%) are avoiding purchasing a BEV is range anxiety. 61% said that they would be more inclined to purchase a BEV if there were more charging stations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted December 28, 2019 Author Share Posted December 28, 2019 On 12/22/2019 at 2:42 PM, akirby said: Field charging is only viable for folks who don’t mind planning their trip and schedule around charging and the average buyer won’t do that until it’s almost as convenient and fast as gasoline. Installing level 3 chargers is prohibitively expensive. Tesla gets away with it because it’s a Ponzi scheme that doesn’t have to make a profit. Mach-E and F150 BEV owners will charge at home and drive locally. That’s the only real volume BEV Positive business case. Ford is serious about BEVs to the extent they can make a profit. Why do Teslaphiles not understand this? No one is going to pay $40K+ for a BEV and only drive it 40% of its range one way when you can easily buy a car that gets 50mpg for $25K and drive it anywhere. Ford knows this and so does GM, yet they have failed to build or heavily invest in a nationwide FCS and are waiting for someone else to step up, spend their money, manpower, marketing, and equipment so Ford and GM can sell more BEVs. In a perfect world where a country wanted to reduce dependence on fossil fuels, the government would be the one. Volvo did a study and found out that the #1 reason that consumers (58%) are avoiding purchasing a BEV is range anxiety. 61% said that they would be more inclined to purchase a BEV if there were more charging stations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, mlhm5 said: No one is going to pay $40K+ for a BEV and only drive it 40% of its range one way when you can easily buy a car that gets 50mpg for $25K and drive it anywhere. Ford knows this and so does GM, yet they have failed to build or heavily invest in a nationwide FCS and are waiting for someone else to step up, spend their money, manpower, marketing, and equipment so Ford and GM can sell more BEVs. In a perfect world where a country wanted to reduce dependence on fossil fuels, the government would be the one. Volvo did a study and found out that the #1 reason that consumers (58%) are avoiding purchasing a BEV is range anxiety. 61% said that they would be more inclined to purchase a BEV if there were more charging stations. I agree with most everything you wrote, outside of it being the government's responsibility for building a charging network, but that's another topic entirely. I'm reluctant to consider a BEV primarily because of their poor weather battery performance. Plus, we live in Northern Michigan and take frequent trips to Michigan's Upper Peninsula and to the North Shore of Lake Superior in Ontario. AFAIK, there are no charging stations anywhere we go. So our next vehicle will be ICE powered. Maybe after that, if Im still able to drive (I'm an old guy), I'll consider a BEV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted December 28, 2019 Author Share Posted December 28, 2019 1 1 hour ago, mackinaw said: I agree with most everything you wrote, outside of it being the government's responsibility for building a charging network, but that's another topic entirely. I'm reluctant to consider a BEV primarily because of their poor weather battery performance. Plus, we live in Northern Michigan and take frequent trips to Michigan's Upper Peninsula and to the North Shore of Lake Superior in Ontario. AFAIK, there are no charging stations anywhere we go. So our next vehicle will be ICE powered. Maybe after that, if Im still able to drive (I'm an old guy), I'll consider a BEV. Obviously your geographic location and lack of Level 3 chargers do not make you the ideal candidate for a BEV. Sunny days are at a premium in your location. I used to live in an area that got more snow and fewer sunny days than Northern Michigan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 A BEV would be great for me and there's no level 3 chargers anywhere near me, not even at work. I just don't want one right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 I don’t really care about remote charging stations. Charging at home will cover my needs. I’ll also be keeping the Flex when we get the Mach-E, so between the three cars we should be covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probowler Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 On 12/22/2019 at 6:25 PM, mlhm5 said: My point is that Ford's Rivian R1T and the Mach E is nothing more than a way to trick investors into believing Ford actually stands a chance in the EV market. Ford is so uncommitted to EV that they are completely dependent on others to install Level 3 charging stations throughout the USA and have not even considered having Level 3 charging stations for multiple cars at each dealership. ...Why would Ford bother paying to install charging stations when they could let Tesla and others to pay for them? It wouldn't surprise me to see some enterprising individuals develop charging adapters, or for the government to eventually standardize the connection. As for the charging stations, maybe one day they'll evolve into all out rest stations alongside the highway. Wifi, bathrooms, place to walk the dog, and occasionally even restaurants or convenience stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 On 12/22/2019 at 3:14 PM, mlhm5 said: .... FYI, Tesla has open-sourced many of its patents. If that is true, why isn't every manufacturer using Teslas' supercharger system? Please list all the manufacturers that do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 (edited) Contrary to what many are posting, EVs don't necessarily have to replicate the elapsed time of a gasoline fill up. The point at which the public at large views the tradeoff of increased stop times on long trips versus never having to visit a fuel station in normal day to day driving is acceptable is the great unknown. Is it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, or 5? That is the big question that no one knows the answer to, least of all anyone here. Edited December 28, 2019 by AGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted December 28, 2019 Author Share Posted December 28, 2019 2 Just now, probowler said: ...Why would Ford bother paying to install charging stations when they could let Tesla and others to pay for them? It wouldn't surprise me to see some enterprising individuals develop charging adapters, or for the government to eventually standardize the connection. As for the charging stations, maybe one day they'll evolve into all out rest stations alongside the highway. Wifi, bathrooms, place to walk the dog, and occasionally even restaurants or convenience stores. Tesla has already offered its Supercharger stations to Ford and Ford declined. Ford has stated they will not invest in a charging network but has announced a partnership with Greenlots (Level 2 chargers 240 volts) and Electrify America which is the company was created as part of a settlement by Volkswagen Group, after Volkswagen was caught lying about diesel emissions and ordered to invest $2 billion in electric vehicle charging infrastructure. No one really knows what will happen to Electrify America once the $2 billion that the US government mandated that VW spend is gone, however they are following thru and building a FCS network - https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/electrify-america-will-deploy-2000-350kw-fast-chargers-by-the-end-of-2019/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted December 28, 2019 Author Share Posted December 28, 2019 43 minutes ago, twintornados said: If that is true, why isn't every manufacturer using Teslas' supercharger system? Please list all the manufacturers that do. Is your question why aren't other manufacturers using the Tesla supercharger network or why are other manufacturers not building their own? If it is the former, Tesla has offered their Supercharger network (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/) it is the latter, Ford has announced they are not investing in a FCS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted December 28, 2019 Author Share Posted December 28, 2019 46 minutes ago, AGR said: Contrary to what many are posting, EVs don't necessarily have to replicate the elapsed time of a gasoline fill up. The point at which the public at large views the tradeoff of increased stop times on long trips versus never having to visit a fuel station in normal day to day driving is acceptable is the great unknown. Is it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, or 5? That is the big question that no one knows the answer to, least of all anyone here. There are some tricks to Supercharging your car but the basic principle is, pick the V3 charger if available or do not charge if there is another car in the stall (AB share power). You get the fastest charging when you are in the range of about 20% to 55% and when it starts to taper, it is time to go, so, the best plan is to stop charging when you have enough power to reach your next charging stop, plus a 10-20% reserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 Expanding on your post, people stop every couple of hours to use the restroom anyway, so just charge 5-10 minutes each time. Then you take a bit longer at mealtime and charge full or near full. Do all of that and you could travel in roughly the same distance in the same amount of time as in an ICE car. (assuming you start out with a full charge and there's a built out fast charging network) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 (edited) On 12/22/2019 at 6:33 PM, mlhm5 said: Ford like GM is not serious about EVs and despite all the hype surrounding Ford and GM's commitment to EVs, without access to a robust FCS network they are just developing concept vehicles and they know it. Both GM and Ford have embraced the failed strategy that someone else will use their money/marketing/development and install FCS throughout the USA for Ford and GM cars.Unlike Europe, the major oil companies in the USA are not interested. Tesla is upgrading their Supercharging network to V3 which you can get 75 miles in 5 minutes. Good points mlhm5 sir. All the incumbent global automakers are "not serious about EVs" currently because they can still get away with selling ICE vehicles. And they'll milk that cow as long as they can, getting further and further behind Tesla, which will never compromise on its mission to "accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy." The incumbent automakers including Ford will have to come up with an exit strategy from the ICE age sooner rather than later, or they will no longer exist. Edited December 29, 2019 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 On 12/22/2019 at 7:07 PM, akirby said: What Tesla does is meaningless from a market perspective. Professor Enrique Dans said it perfectly. Tesla "is a company capable of turning entire industries upside down and ultimately changing the world". https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2019/12/26/tesla-theres-none-so-blind-as-those-who-will-notsee/#6af8e57a665a No other automaker can make that claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 12 hours ago, mlhm5 said: Is your question why aren't other manufacturers using the Tesla supercharger network or why are other manufacturers not building their own? If it is the former, Tesla has offered their Supercharger network (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/) it is the latter, Ford has announced they are not investing in a FCS. Pay attention...the question is simple so I'll ask it again. If that is true, why isn't every manufacturer using Teslas' supercharger system? Please list all the manufacturers that do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 8 hours ago, rperez817 said: Good points mlhm5 sir. All the incumbent global automakers are "not serious about EVs" currently because they can still get away with selling ICE vehicles. And they'll milk that cow as long as they can, getting further and further behind Tesla, which will never compromise on its mission to "accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy." Complete BS. BEVs have just now become viable with a 300 mile range and a reasonable price that still provides some profit or at least break even. Real companies would be stupid to lose tens of millions of dollars trying to compete with Tesla just because it’s cool. Some of ya’ll need a lesson in basic economics. The technology is cool but the business model is not sustainable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 7 hours ago, rperez817 said: Professor Enrique Dans said it perfectly. Tesla "is a company capable of turning entire industries upside down and ultimately changing the world". https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2019/12/26/tesla-theres-none-so-blind-as-those-who-will-notsee/#6af8e57a665a No other automaker can make that claim. He calls hybrids irresponsible and calls the cybertruck concept vehicle a “product launch”. Typical Tesla groupie. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/29/2019 at 5:28 AM, twintornados said: Pay attention...the question is simple so I'll ask it again. If that is true, why isn't every manufacturer using Teslas' supercharger system? Please list all the manufacturers that do. @mlhm5...no reply?? Tsk, tsk tsk..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 Stopped at a Culver's in WI this past Sunday, noticed a bank of 6 Superchargers in the back of the parking lot. Is this a typical build-out for them? HRG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) Is that “The Worlds Biggest Culver’s”? Hadn’t seen (or I guess noticed) those there before. Edited December 30, 2019 by sullynd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, sullynd said: Is that “The Worlds Biggest Culver’s”? Hadn’t seen (or I guess noticed) those there before. Hahaha, no, that's the one in Mauston WI, exit #69 off I-90. HRG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.