T-dubz Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 Mulch or a lawn mower would fit in both, but I’d rather not get dirt or gas all over the interior of a vehicle. Id guess you could fit a recliner, chest of drawers, desks, probably could get a loveseat back there too if it rests on the tailgate. A dresser would probably fit with a bed extender too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 (edited) if I had to guess, I think it will look more like this VW tarok concept and less like the fiat toro or the other ones posted. I think the Hyundai Santa Cruz will also be in this segment. Edited May 11, 2020 by T-dubz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 I think it will look like a dual cab Transit Connect with a small tray on the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, akirby said: Based on LWB Transit Connect specs, this Fiat Toro does look like the right size. But I still think that bed is just too small. Make it a 2 door and extend the bed and I think it would be more popular. The 4 door would be basically the same as Bronco Sport with the back roof removed. And I reiterate I could be completely wrong. I just don't see the market for such a tiny tiny cargo bed. That's why I mentioned other markets... Something the size of Toro but only 2 door will not sell in South America. Those markets want 4 doors in this size. The market potential for this kind of of truck in South America is not trivial which is why VW and Hyundai are following FCA and Renault into the market. It is very much a lifestyle truck with a small size bed. Ford wouldn't be making this truck just for North America... at least I don't think the business plan pencils out unless you take into account the volume south of Mexico. Conversely, if you make this truck with a functional bed and only 2 doors that you described, it is too down market and utilitarian most buyers. That market is being served by even smaller (and cheaper) B-segment trucks. So if Ford is going to sell a 2 door truck, it won't be Focus/Bronco Sport/Transit Connect based. It will be Fiesta/EcoSport/Transit Courier based. Basically, we have a catch-22 situation. You can make it with market appeal or you can make it functional. I don't think you can do both given the size constrain. But keep in mind that not every car has to be functional... market appeal is the most important factor. For example, compact sedans are not nearly as functional compare to compact hatchbacks or wagons and yet sedan has higher market appeal in the US. Same principle applies here... small pickup with 4 doors or small pickup with 2 doors - which one is more functional and which one has more appeal? Edited May 11, 2020 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, T-dubz said: Mulch or a lawn mower would fit in both, but I’d rather not get dirt or gas all over the interior of a vehicle. Id guess you could fit a recliner, chest of drawers, desks, probably could get a loveseat back there too if it rests on the tailgate. A dresser would probably fit with a bed extender too. I think bed extender is a given for this truck. Here is what Fiat Toro looks like with bed extender And the Renualt Oroch Edited May 12, 2020 by bzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 7 hours ago, silvrsvt said: I'm seeing this product more like a Ridgeline then a real pickup truck. Given that its a unibody FWD design, I think having multiple bed lengths or Cabs is going to kill any profitability on it. Its leaning more towards Sport Trac bed size, then Ranger size. Maybe Ford will do something that will allow you fold the tailgate down and fit a sheet of plywood or sheetrock in the back of it, without it falling out. That would take care of the DIY aspect that the buyer would want. The Transit Connect, Custom, and Transit (Europe only) are all FWD and offer multiple van lengths... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 4 hours ago, T-dubz said: if I had to guess, I think it will look more like this VW tarok concept and less like the fiat toro or the other ones posted. I think the Hyundai Santa Cruz will also be in this segment. If it looks similar to this, it should be pretty successful. The VW is pretty sharp for that type of vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 We have already been told it is styled boxy ad similar tot he original Ranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 14 hours ago, akirby said: Based on LWB Transit Connect specs, this Fiat Toro does look like the right size. But I still think that bed is just too small. Make it a 2 door and extend the bed and I think it would be more popular. The 4 door would be basically the same as Bronco Sport with the back roof removed. And I reiterate I could be completely wrong. I just don't see the market for such a tiny tiny cargo bed. I think it has more to do with selling the sizzle than the steak. In people's mind, they bought a truck even when you step back and look at it, it's really not. The same rule applies to buying a base Mustang like I did. I know it's not a true sports car or fast like a V8, but damn, I love the way it looks! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 11 hours ago, ausrutherford said: The Transit Connect, Custom, and Transit (Europe only) are all FWD and offer multiple van lengths... I'm assuming that crash cell doesn't change all that much with a product like that, outside of length. With a pickup, your removing or adding a whole passenger area with the rear passengers. Plus I haven't seen any multiple cab version of a unibody style product, even if its has an interior ladder "frame" built into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 15 hours ago, akirby said: Here is the better question - what can you put in that bed that you can't put in the back of a Bronco Sport? I think part the problem your having is that you want a 1990s Era Ranger for 2020+ because you like the one you had... Anyways-I've had the past two generations of Escape and can tell you this much- A 75inch TV BARELY fits into the back of an 2017 Escape-I had to ride in the passenger seat all the way up with my knees up against the dash. My wife who is a foot shorter then me barely to could drive home with it (it was 10 minutes from our house) Looking at the Fiat-you could fit a dishwaster/Washing Machine/Dryer box and most likely a refrigerator standing up in the back of it, if you needed to. You could fit a decent amount of mulch, rock or other things in it without worrying about messing up the interior of your Escape, Bronco Sport or Edge. Like its been repeated here before-this is a product that is purely a lifestyle product or add marketshare at a low cost for Ford. This isn't about fleet sales or the like, like you do with the Ranger or F-series. That is why I have my doubts about this actually being a low end product...I see it being a $25-30K product that helps keep the Ranger ATPs higher. The other thing this will appeal to is people who want a "cheap" truck. I hear this all the time from my father-in-law. People want something basic/cheap-This will meet 80-90% of the needs of the average user that will take stuff to the dump, go on home depot to buy sheetrock/plywood or stone/mulch for their house. The vast majority of the time it will be used as a commuter and won't be nearly as crude as the 1990s Ranger was. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: I think part the problem your having is that you want a 1990s Era Ranger for 2020+ because you like the one you had... Anyways-I've had the past two generations of Escape and can tell you this much- A 75inch TV BARELY fits into the back of an 2017 Escape-I had to ride in the passenger seat all the way up with my knees up against the dash. My wife who is a foot shorter then me barely to could drive home with it (it was 10 minutes from our house) Looking at the Fiat-you could fit a dishwaster/Washing Machine/Dryer box and most likely a refrigerator standing up in the back of it, if you needed to. You could fit a decent amount of mulch, rock or other things in it without worrying about messing up the interior of your Escape, Bronco Sport or Edge. Like its been repeated here before-this is a product that is purely a lifestyle product or add marketshare at a low cost for Ford. This isn't about fleet sales or the like, like you do with the Ranger or F-series. That is why I have my doubts about this actually being a low end product...I see it being a $25-30K product that helps keep the Ranger ATPs higher. The other thing this will appeal to is people who want a "cheap" truck. I hear this all the time from my father-in-law. People want something basic/cheap-This will meet 80-90% of the needs of the average user that will take stuff to the dump, go on home depot to buy sheetrock/plywood or stone/mulch for their house. The vast majority of the time it will be used as a commuter and won't be nearly as crude as the 1990s Ranger was. I hear you, but I'm not just saying that because I liked mine. I think there is still a market for a less expensive vehicle for one or two people with an open bed just like the 90s ranger rcsb. But my issue is more with overlap. If someone wants 4 doors and a truck bed they can go midsized Ranger or create a Bronco Sport with 4 doors and some type of removable rear roof. Why add a 3rd 4 door with such a tiny bed? Seems like a 2 door with a longer bed would be both cheaper and more useful and get better mpg. I understand it would appeal to ROW. I'm just not sold on this for NA. And I could be completely misreading the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlghtjr90 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, akirby said: I hear you, but I'm not just saying that because I liked mine. I think there is still a market for a less expensive vehicle for one or two people with an open bed just like the 90s ranger rcsb. But my issue is more with overlap. If someone wants 4 doors and a truck bed they can go midsized Ranger or create a Bronco Sport with 4 doors and some type of removable rear roof. Why add a 3rd 4 door with such a tiny bed? Seems like a 2 door with a longer bed would be both cheaper and more useful and get better mpg. I understand it would appeal to ROW. I'm just not sold on this for NA. And I could be completely misreading the market. I'm sure the proportion and overall exterior looks better too with 2-door with longer bed. What I'm also sure is there was enough market research that customers want 4-doors more than 2-doors. Too bad Ford does not want to spend too much money and offer just one variant for the style. Edited May 12, 2020 by dlghtjr90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 The truth is no matter what the utility gains are the two door market is pretty dead outside of a few areas. For this vehicle as has been said it will be used as a car most of the time with the added utility for occasions when it is needed. It will not be worth having a two and four door model if the split would be like 80/20 at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader 10 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 3 hours ago, silvrsvt said: That is why I have my doubts about this actually being a low end product...I see it being a $25-30K product that helps keep the Ranger ATPs higher. The other thing this will appeal to is people who want a "cheap" truck. I hear this all the time from my father-in-law. People want something basic/cheap-This will meet 80-90% of the needs of the average user that will take stuff to the dump, go on home depot to buy sheetrock/plywood or stone/mulch for their house. The vast majority of the time it will be used as a commuter and won't be nearly as crude as the 1990s Ranger was. I don’t see much demand for a FWD based unit body truck costing $25 to $30K -at least not in the U.S. Those wanting a cheap truck I believe are looking for something more capable than this. The current Ranger offers that in the $25 to $30K range. I don’t see the appeal of this. Sure there are some that want something smaller than the Ranger but I don’t think that group constitutes many buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 33 minutes ago, tzach said: The truth is no matter what the utility gains are the two door market is pretty dead outside of a few areas. For this vehicle as has been said it will be used as a car most of the time with the added utility for occasions when it is needed. It will not be worth having a two and four door model if the split would be like 80/20 at best. So why not just make an open back version of Bronco Sport? That would be a lot cheaper and easier. Why make it a separate model altogether if there isn't a material difference in size or utility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlghtjr90 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 40 minutes ago, akirby said: So why not just make an open back version of Bronco Sport? That would be a lot cheaper and easier. Why make it a separate model altogether if there isn't a material difference in size or utility? There might be plenty of parts shared. For me, my reason for buying would be when the Fusion gets discontinued. The Escape is a more expensive product when equipped equivalently as the Fusion, so I'm hoping this is cheaper than that and matches the price range of the Fusion. Some utility-ness of it may be useful, but it will be used as a passenger car since there is no more sedan.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, silvrsvt said: I'm assuming that crash cell doesn't change all that much with a product like that, outside of length. With a pickup, your removing or adding a whole passenger area with the rear passengers. Plus I haven't seen any multiple cab version of a unibody style product, even if its has an interior ladder "frame" built into it. Holden Commodore Ute comes to mind... but Commodore was also available as a wagon so perhaps it wasn't a difficult transition. Also of course Transit itself is available in both single and double cab configurations. Edited May 12, 2020 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 minute ago, dlghtjr90 said: There might be plenty of parts shared. For me, my reason for buying would be when the Fusion gets discontinued. The Escape is a more expensive product when equipped equivalently as the Fusion, so I'm hoping this is cheaper than that and matches the price range of the Fusion. Some utility-ness of it may be useful, but it will be used as a passenger car since there is no more sedan.. Not sure it will be that much cheaper if it has 4 doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 58 minutes ago, Trader 10 said: I don’t see much demand for a FWD based unit body truck costing $25 to $30K -at least not in the U.S. Those wanting a cheap truck I believe are looking for something more capable than this. The current Ranger offers that in the $25 to $30K range. I don’t see the appeal of this. Sure there are some that want something smaller than the Ranger but I don’t think that group constitutes many buyers. But could you get a more equipped trucklet for that price, vs. a lesser equipped Ranger? People like features. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, akirby said: Not sure it will be that much cheaper if it has 4 doors. There are two parts to that equation... Is it cheaper to build than an otherwise similar car (i.e. Focus sedan) Will it sell for more money than an otherwise similar car. I'm guessing the truck will cost about the same to build as Focus but Ford probably will get more than $18k retail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I also think the bed will be longer than the cargo area of the bronco sport. For example, the bed of that fiat and Peugeot are around 4 feet long. I think the cargo area of the escape is about 3.5 feet long and the bronco sport is supposed to be slightly shorter I think. The supercrew ranger has a 5 ft bed for reference. while the styling of most of these lifestyle trucks isn’t my cup of tea, they all seem to have some pretty innovative features, especially when it comes to the tailgate. I hope ford does something similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Ok you guys convinced me. I still think there is an untapped market for a 2 door trucklet with a longer bed and smaller engine that would be significantly cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) So basically, you guys have just discussed the conundrum that Ford is facing, Single cab pick up as a low cost entry level or a more popular crew cab pick up. Both choices are possible but remember that in order to have sufficient room, the crew cab will need to be a certain minimum length which will probably be around 200 ". Once you're at that size or bigger, it's becoming a narrow Ranger. Not dismissing what's been discussed here but I suspect that Ford will be aiming a bit lower and more simpler than some seem to be expecting. There's something about Ford and cheap in the one sentence that doesn't normally work so well. Edited May 12, 2020 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Call it ford brat...put 2 seats in bed rearward facing....might sell well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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