EV Problem: Mach-E Piling Up on Dealer Lots

[DeluxeStang]

9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I dunno if Ford is thinking that way with BEV Mustang coupe yet, I suspect that it will play to its strengths and run long with the ICE coupe as long as possible, so figure on six to eight years……other vehicles are higher priority at the moment.

Yeah, there are probably advanced design and engineering concepts for an EV mustang right now, but nothing concrete. Ford's been given a lot of crap for a lot of the performance shortcomings the mach-e gt has in terms of things like it's power limiter, and porky weight. So they probably don't want to launch an EV coupe until they can ensure that it'll exceed performance expectations. 

[mackinaw]

33 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

......Ford's been given a lot of crap for a lot of the performance shortcomings the mach-e gt has in terms of things like it's power limiter, and porky weight.......

 

So people are complaining about a 0-60 time of 3.5 seconds?

[akirby]

13 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

So people are complaining about a 0-60 time of 3.5 seconds?

Nothing is ever good enough for some people.

[Harley Lover]

14 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

So people are complaining about a 0-60 time of 3.5 seconds?

 

No. Being limited to 5 seconds at full throttle, among other issues. Ford effed up on that.

[akirby]

13 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

No. Being limited to 5 seconds at full throttle, among other issues. Ford effed up on that.

Yes it’s a flaw but 5 seconds gets you to about 80 mph.  Where/when do you need to go faster?

[GearheadGrrrl]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

Yes it’s a flaw but 5 seconds gets you to about 80 mph.  Where/when do you need to go faster?

Autocrossing, for a start- course is usually less than a minute in length but you may need full power for half that. The Mach-E's poor performance on the Michigan State Police track tests really demonstrated the car's limitations.

[akirby]

12 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Autocrossing, for a start- course is usually less than a minute in length but you may need full power for half that. The Mach-E's poor performance on the Michigan State Police track tests really demonstrated the car's limitations.

Because everybody takes their Mach-e to the track and autocross…..

[GearheadGrrrl]

Only most of SCCA's 60,000+ members who have been buying Miatas, Mustangs, GTIs, and Vettes for decades. Ford is clearly targeting the new Mustang at amateur autocross, shouldn't the Mustang Mach-E have the same track cred?

[akirby]

32 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Only most of SCCA's 60,000+ members who have been buying Miatas, Mustangs, GTIs, and Vettes for decades. Ford is clearly targeting the new Mustang at amateur autocross, shouldn't the Mustang Mach-E have the same track cred?

Of course it SHOULD but you never go WOT for more than 5 seconds at a time in autocross and I found no complaints from auto crossers.

 

It will show up on a track but very very few Mach-e buyers will ever even consider going to a track.  So it’s a problem that isn’t a problem for 99.99% of buyers.

 

[DeluxeStang]

13 hours ago, akirby said:

Nothing is ever good enough for some people.

The mach-e cuts power after 5 seconds. That's the issue I'm referring to, amongst other things. It literally gets dusted in every drag race against other ev crossovers with similar power levels. That's not a good look when your EV is basically the only one on its segment that has ties to a famous sports car. You call your EV a mustang, I expect it to outperform a Hyundai. 

 

This issue won't exist, most likely, on the second gen mach-e, but it deserves all the criticism it gets and then some. I go to bat for the mach-e more than just about anyone else on these forums, and even I admit this is an issue. 

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Of course it SHOULD but you never go WOT for more than 5 seconds at a time in autocross and I found no complaints from auto crossers.

 

It will show up on a track but very very few Mach-e buyers will ever even consider going to a track.  So it’s a problem that isn’t a problem for 99.99% of buyers.

 

The issue is the mach-e in terms of performance does a good job at meeting the bare minimum out of what you'd expect for an ev mustang, but it doesn't really go above and beyond like an electric mustang should. No-one expects a mach-e to keep up with a Lotus Elise around an autocross, it's still a crossover at the end of the day. But it should blow every other similarly priced EV crossover out of the water in a race, and it just doesn't. The 5 second dropoff apparently isn't gradually either, it's like hitting a brick wall. Darren Palmer said in an interview that they're doing something about the limiter. Because I want to mach-e to succeed, I hope they're able to remove it, or drastically extend intervals where full power is available. But many on the mach-e forums are cynical, and assume it'll just go from a 5 second, to a 7 second period, or something minor like that. 

[ice-capades]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

The issue is the mach-e in terms of performance does a good job at meeting the bare minimum out of what you'd expect for an ev mustang, but it doesn't really go above and beyond like an electric mustang should. No-one expects a mach-e to keep up with a Lotus Elise around an autocross, it's still a crossover at the end of the day. But it should blow every other similarly priced EV crossover out of the water in a race, and it just doesn't. The 5 second dropoff apparently isn't gradually either, it's like hitting a brick wall. Darren Palmer said in an interview that they're doing something about the limiter. Because I want to mach-e to succeed, I hope they're able to remove it, or drastically extend intervals where full power is available. But many on the mach-e forums are cynical, and assume it'll just go from a 5 second, to a 7 second period, or something minor like that. 

 

Enough already... you made your point, over and over again!

[akirby]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

The issue is the mach-e in terms of performance does a good job at meeting the bare minimum out of what you'd expect for an ev mustang, but it doesn't really go above and beyond like an electric mustang should. No-one expects a mach-e to keep up with a Lotus Elise around an autocross, it's still a crossover at the end of the day. But it should blow every other similarly priced EV crossover out of the water in a race, and it just doesn't. The 5 second dropoff apparently isn't gradually either, it's like hitting a brick wall. Darren Palmer said in an interview that they're doing something about the limiter. Because I want to mach-e to succeed, I hope they're able to remove it, or drastically extend intervals where full power is available. But many on the mach-e forums are cynical, and assume it'll just go from a 5 second, to a 7 second period, or something minor like that. 

Nowhere did I say it wasn’t a flaw.  Just trying to put some perspective around the real world impact which is minimal because most buyers don’t drag race past 80 mph.

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

Just trying to put some perspective around the real world impact which is minimal because most buyers don’t drag race past 80 mph.

 

The real world impact of the power cutoff design flaw is that it seriously harms Mustang Mach-E GT/GTPE 's reputation as Ford's best hi-po BEV. 

[akirby]

Only to a very tiny percentage of buyers who actually care.

[Rick73]

Yeah, I think performance (i.e. — racing) is not as influential as it once was, especially with younger buyers.  At least if we don’t include the virtual world.  In the real world vehicles like low-cost Maverick Hybrid do not require lease deals, and Hybrid is now a $1,500 option according to Ford Authority.  NOT SAYING RACING IS NOT POPULAR STILL. 

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/07/2024-ford-maverick-lease-deals-nonexistent/

 

While there are high performance BEVs with up to 1,000 HP or more, I wonder if most buyers care at all, or worse yet see them in a negative light.  

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Nowhere did I say it wasn’t a flaw.  Just trying to put some perspective around the real world impact which is minimal because most buyers don’t drag race past 80 mph.

The issue is, you're thinking reasonably. If all car buyers cared about was being reasonable and realistic, no-one would ever buy a performance crossover in the first place. People like to brag about how their car can do something even if they'll never personally use it for that purpose. 95% of super duty owners will never get anywhere close to the max tow ratings of their trucks. But they like bragging about what they can tow if they wanted to.

 

Most performance car owners, be it a Lamborghini owner, or a golf GTI owner, will never drive at triple digits in most cases. But they like to compare, and talk about who's the fastest. Bragging rights are one of the biggest selling points of any aspirational product. Being the fastest, or the best handling, or the most reliable helps to elevate the products reputation. The mach-e has impressive low end acceleration, but imagine how much cooler it would be if it was also capable of going like 160-170 mph, if not faster. Instead they top out at like 110-120.

 

Will most mach-e drivers go 120? No, but it's frustrating to know you dropped 70 grand on this mustang, and some economy cars have a higher top speed than you. It's not a good feeling. 

[Flying68]

To me the 5 second cutoff indicates that they either underengineered the power delivery system, or some sort of cost cutting forced a change.  I am assuming the motor is perfectly happy running at peak KW, so the issue is either with battery cooling or with overheating/melting connectors.  There could have also been some problem discovered after the final design was set that necessitated the limit in order to preserve the 0-60 time without causing meltdowns.

[Harley Lover]

On 7/23/2023 at 12:28 PM, akirby said:

Yes it’s a flaw but 5 seconds gets you to about 80 mph.  Where/when do you need to go faster?

 

Why does a Mustang GT need 400+ hp? Why does an F150 Raptor need its suspension? 

Do I really need to answer the question?

Why is it so hard to admit Ford dropped the ball here?

[akirby]

36 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Why is it so hard to admit Ford dropped the ball here?

I said repeatedly it’s a flaw.  I don’t know how I could possibly be more clear about that.  It’s to protect the battery and I’m sure it will be fixed.  I just don’t think it’s the end of the world if you can only do 5 seconds at a time WOT.

 

[CurtisH]

42 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Why does a Mustang GT need 400+ hp? Why does an F150 Raptor need its suspension? 

Do I really need to answer the question?

Why is it so hard to admit Ford dropped the ball here?

Akirby has already agreed that it is a flaw.  He just doesn’t see it as catastrophic. 

[Harley Lover]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

I said repeatedly it’s a flaw.  I don’t know how I could possibly be more clear about that.  It’s to protect the battery and I’m sure it will be fixed.  I just don’t think it’s the end of the world if you can only do 5 seconds at a time WOT.

 

Read the 16 page (and counting) reaction to Darren Palmer's comments - these are from people who actually own the car, not random commenters: https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/darren-palmer-5-second-limit-on-full-power-acceleration-will-be-changed.29382/page-2

 

[akirby]

16 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

Read the 16 page (and counting) reaction to Darren Palmer's comments - these are from people who actually own the car, not random commenters: https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/darren-palmer-5-second-limit-on-full-power-acceleration-will-be-changed.29382/page-2

 

 

That was the same 4 or 5 guys complaining.  The rest was about the frunk opener and how hp is calculated.

 

Thats also an enthusiast forum and doesn’t necessarily represent the average buyer.  Again, it’s a big problem for a handful of owners/buyers and no problem at all for the majority of buyers.  And Ford is planning to increase it soon making it even less of a problem.  But you can’t say it’s really affecting sales unless you have all of the GT sales numbers before and after and you discount sales lost due to price increases or new competition.

[rperez817]

6 hours ago, Rick73 said:

While there are high performance BEVs with up to 1,000 HP or more, I wonder if most buyers care at all, or worse yet see them in a negative light.  

 

Broadly speaking, "most buyers" don't care about high-performance cars or about competitive driving activities such as autocross, drag racing, track days, etc. However, for the segment of consumers who want the full hi-po experience in their next car, BEV is critical for 2 reasons.

1. The inherent efficiency of BEV simply makes for a superior performance car experience compared to what existing ICE powered hi-po vehicles can provide. 
2. The cost of regulatory compliance for new ICE hi-po street legal vehicles is rising so dramatically that it won't be feasible for automakers to offer them anymore within a few years. Tim Kuniskis at Stellantis said it best. "I'm super excited about the future of electric because I think it's what's going to allow us not to fall off the cliff. Without that technology, without electrification, this is 1972 right now, and this thing is going to end". 

[akirby]

“Most” buyers would be ecstatic with 0-60 times of 3.5 seconds and would never hit the 5 second limit to begin with.