Ford pushes back EV target, warns of wider losses due to slower-than-expected adoption

[bzcat]

8 hours ago, AM222 said:

One thing for sure, it looks better than the ID.4.

These MEB-based Fords are supposed to be a stopgap solution right? Until Ford launches its new (modular?) EV platform?
Any news on this new Ford EV platform? 

 

Modified B2 is coming in 2023 in Romania (Puma and Transit Courier EV). 

 

GE2 is coming in 2024 in the Oakville SUV formerly known as Explorer, and eventually other midsize and large unibody SUVs.

 

TE1 is coming in 2025 on F-150, and eventually other trucks and current BOF SUVs. 

 

CE1 is coming in 2027... no idea what model it will replace yet but probably everything cheaper/smaller than current Escape/Kuga and will probably replace the B2 and MEB based product when they age out.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by bzcat

[silvrsvt]

16 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

Modified B2 is coming in 2023 in Romania (Puma and Transit Courier EV). 

 

GE2 is coming in 2024 in the Oakville SUV formerly known as Explorer, and eventually other midsize and large unibody SUVs.

 

TE1 is coming in 2025 on F-150, and eventually other trucks and current BOF SUVs. 

 

CE1 is coming in 2027... no idea what model it will replace yet but probably everything cheaper/smaller than current Escape/Kuga and will probably replace the B2 and MEB based product when they age out.

 

 

What the T3? Its apparently quite different then the TE1? 

[Oac98]

4 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Modified B2 is coming in 2023 in Romania (Puma and Transit Courier EV). 

 

GE2 is coming in 2024 in the Oakville SUV formerly known as Explorer, and eventually other midsize and large unibody SUVs.

 

TE1 is coming in 2025 on F-150, and eventually other trucks and current BOF SUVs. 

 

CE1 is coming in 2027... no idea what model it will replace yet but probably everything cheaper/smaller than current Escape/Kuga and will probably replace the B2 and MEB based product when they age out.

 

Nothing is rolling out of Oakville assembly in 2024. I think you know that anyways. I believe there will be no saleable units til 2025 at the earliest. Rumored Edge extension til May 2024. 6 month retool you get the picture. 

[bzcat]

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

What the T3? Its apparently quite different then the TE1? 

 

T3 is the current F-150 and F-150 Lightning platform 

Edited August 14, 2023 by bzcat

[Trader 10]

1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

Nothing is rolling out of Oakville assembly in 2024. I think you know that anyways. I believe there will be no saleable units til 2025 at the earliest. Rumored Edge extension til May 2024. 6 month retool you get the picture. 

I don’t think TE1 will be out before 2026 either. 

[Oac98]

10 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

I don’t think TE1 will be out before 2026 either. 

I think production or pre production starts 2025 forsure 

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

I think production or pre production starts 2025 forsure 

I wonder if that is now being quietly slowed……

[AM222]

13 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Modified B2 is coming in 2023 in Romania (Puma and Transit Courier EV). 

 

GE2 is coming in 2024 in the Oakville SUV formerly known as Explorer, and eventually other midsize and large unibody SUVs.

 

TE1 is coming in 2025 on F-150, and eventually other trucks and current BOF SUVs. 

 

CE1 is coming in 2027... no idea what model it will replace yet but probably everything cheaper/smaller than current Escape/Kuga and will probably replace the B2 and MEB based product when they age out.

 

What about the EV version of the Ranger and other related mid-size BoF models, what platform will they use?

[silvrsvt]

5 hours ago, AM222 said:

What about the EV version of the Ranger and other related mid-size BoF models, what platform will they use?

 

They would use the TE1....the Ranger/Bronco Frame is similar to the F-150 frame. The unibody on top is what is different, but there would be accommodations/changes for BEV 

[Oac98]

8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I wonder if that is now being quietly slowed……

Possibly but somehow I don’t think so when it comes to BOC. 

[Rick73]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:04 PM, DeluxeStang said:

I feel as though Ford has made a bit of a mistake with their EV strategy. The idea of radical, areo driven styling to enable smaller, cheaper batteries wasn't bad, but they're trying it out in the wrong segment imo. They should have come out of the gate with a radically styled affordable EV. Some 25-30k EV that can still be profitable as a result of using much smaller batteries. Not to mention having radical styling in the affordable vehicle segment is a selling feature,  not a liability. Something truly unique to seperated it visually from all the uninspired looking econo boxes. You'd have buyers around the block, and would have zero rivals. 

Not that I would expect Ford to take a risk in a low-volume segment, but have you wondered why we haven’t seen more electric sports cars?  Your post raises an interesting question in that BEV platforms should be easy (by comparison) to adapt to almost any type of vehicle, so why the lack of cool sports cars?  The first Tesla was based on mid-engine Elise, which looked great IMO, but the platform wasn’t ideal due to inferior packaging.  Back then cost was ridiculously-high anyway.  However, an inexpensive new BEV platform like that of new Fiat 500e could be the next modern BEV Mazda Miata, Toyota MR2, Fiat X1/9, etc.  It doesn’t have to be that expensive.

 

Assuming base RWD preference over FWD, the difference between front engine (Miata, MGB, XKE) and mid engine (Boxster, Corvette, Ford GT) automobiles essentially gets blurred or disappears.  A few recent articles suggest BEV sports cars will become much more common in near future, and I hope that’s correct because it may be an effective way to promote lower-cost BEVs.  The first example I’ve seen is of the MG Cyberster which doesn’t look that small or inexpensive, but honors classic MGB.

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43634289/mg-honors-its-heritage-with-cyberster-electric-roadster-for-europe/

[jpd80]

8 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

Possibly but somehow I don’t think so when it comes to BOC. 

There’s a lot of latitude with BOC regarding what’s not being said. Ford could  build BOC in stages and limit production to a smaller amount to be scaled up at a later date…

 

The red flag for me was when Ford started talking about more hybrids, most people saw that as products like the C2 based hybrids but maybe it’s more about the F150 hybrids with things like on site power option.

Edited August 15, 2023 by jpd80

[Harley Lover]

5 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

There’s a lot of latitude with BOC regarding what’s not being said. Ford could  build BOC in stages and limit production to a smaller amount to be scaled up at a later date…

 

Include bringing a greenfield battery plant up to speed. GM have not set the world on fire with their Ultium start up, it will be interesting to see if Ford and SK fare better with their start ups in Tennessee and Kentucky.

[jpd80]

6 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Include bringing a greenfield battery plant up to speed. GM have not set the world on fire with their Ultium start up, it will be interesting to see if Ford and SK fare better with their start ups in Tennessee and Kentucky.

Exactly.

The last thing Ford needs to do is put itself under pressure by trying to ramp up quickly without production experience with TE1.

Edited August 15, 2023 by jpd80

[bzcat]

14 hours ago, AM222 said:

What about the EV version of the Ranger and other related mid-size BoF models, what platform will they use?

 

If there is one, it would be TE1.

 

I think Ranger and Bronco are lined up for PHEV instead of EV. At least for the current gen. Who know what next gen would bring...

[Oac98]

25 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

There’s a lot of latitude with BOC regarding what’s not being said. Ford could  build BOC in stages and limit production to a smaller amount to be scaled up at a later date…

 

The red flag for me was when Ford started talking about more hybrids, most people saw that as products like the C2 based hybrids but maybe it’s more about the F150 hybrids with things like on site power option.

Good point. It’s gonna be a long launch as Ford will want to get it right the first time. They have to have adequate battery supply and now with all this Hybrid chatter it’s fair to believe there will be delays

[jpd80]

23 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Good point. It’s gonna be a long launch as Ford will want to get it right the first time. They have to have adequate battery supply and now with all this Hybrid chatter it’s fair to believe there will be delays

For Ford to now change its mind on hybrids makes me laugh about all the changes in plans over the years.

 

For instance, Cuautitlan currently builds the GE based Mach E, the GE2 mid sized BEVs originally planned for there were changed to 1) plant near Flat Rock, then 2) plant near Avon Lake and finally 3) Oakville. Now just imagine if they left those vehicles at Cuautitlan and gave Oakville one more product cycle of C2 based Edge/Nautilus with hybrids and PHEVs, changes paid for by China benefitting North America.
 

Not calling Ford stupid but changes upon changes makes me wonder if they lost their product focus and doubled down on seeking cost savings by doing less/nothing for what would become “Ford Blue products”. Farley bought his own BEV promotion “blue sky” over what was needed now like it’s always been, more hybrids

Edited August 15, 2023 by jpd80

[Oac98]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

For Ford to now change its mind on hybrids makes me laugh about all the changes in plans over the years.

 

For instance, Cuautitlan currently builds the GE based Mach E, the GE2 mid sized BEVs originally planned for there were changed to 1) plant near Flat Rock, then 2) plant near Avon Lake and finally 3) Oakville. Now just imagine if they left those vehicles at Cuautitlan and gave Oakville one more product cycle of C2 based Edge/Nautilus with hybrids and PHEVs, changes paid for by China benefitting North America.
 

Not calling Ford stupid but changes upon changes makes me wonder if they lost their product focus and doubled down on seeking cost savings by doing less/nothing for what would become “Ford Blue products”. Farley bought his own BEV promotion “blue sky” over what was needed now like it’s always been, more hybrids

I don’t even think your scenario is far fetched at all. You’re right these vehicles have been allocated to 4 different facilities now with Oakville being the 4th for now lol. The two crossover BEV were originally slated for flat rock then Ohio. Don’t forget that the UAW at Ohio was livid when these vehicles were then slated to be built in Mexico. So now what?? The Mach E will not hit 270000 anytime soon if those other BEVs were there maybe they would have good capacity. Plans may not change again and maybe the crossovers final home will be OAC but would I be shocked if ford changed the script again??? NOPE! Current Nautilus is supposed to be done here DEC 15, 2023. When will they start shipping the Chinese Nautilus here??  

 

 

 

[AM222]

6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

For Ford to now change its mind on hybrids makes me laugh about all the changes in plans over the years.

 

For instance, Cuautitlan currently builds the GE based Mach E, the GE2 mid sized BEVs originally planned for there were changed to 1) plant near Flat Rock, then 2) plant near Avon Lake and finally 3) Oakville. Now just imagine if they left those vehicles at Cuautitlan and gave Oakville one more product cycle of C2 based Edge/Nautilus with hybrids and PHEVs, changes paid for by China benefitting North America.
 

Not calling Ford stupid but changes upon changes makes me wonder if they lost their product focus and doubled down on seeking cost savings by doing less/nothing for what would become “Ford Blue products”. Farley bought his own BEV promotion “blue sky” over what was needed now like it’s always been, more hybrids

I think Ford is making changes upon changes because they commit to something so quickly. Trying to be first (legacy brand) always has its risks. 

Ford China is filling in some of the empty segments in Asia, Middle East, Latin America and now North America with the new Nautilus.

Ford, just stick in a hybrid powerplant in the Evos and sell it in the US and other global markets. Lol

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, AM222 said:

I think Ford is making changes upon changes because they commit to something so quickly. Trying to be first (legacy brand) always has its risks. 

Ford China is filling in some of the empty segments in Asia, Middle East, Latin America and now North America with the new Nautilus.

Ford, just stick in a hybrid powerplant in the Evos and sell it in the US and other global markets. Lol
 

1. I think it more that they rush because guys like Farley realises how late Ford was to begin with electrification, they get these all or nothin’ choice where they drop good programs to rush after the next big thing only to realise that all programs have merit.

 

2. I’m glad that Ford is pushing Nautilus, I just wish the companion hybrid Edge was up there too…

 

3. Man, your lips to the CEO’s ears, there’s still room for a good sedan as a point of difference product.

[AM222]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

1. I think it more that they rush because guys like Farley realises how late Ford was to begin with electrification, they get these all or nothin’ choice where they drop good programs to rush after the next big thing only to realise that all programs have merit.

Imagine if Ford reinvented the Focus as a hybrid & EV-only model then give it unique sporty styling like what Toyota did with the new Prius and CH-R crossover. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by AM222

[pffan1990]

24 minutes ago, AM222 said:

Imagine if Ford reinvented the Focus as a hybrid & EV-only model then give it unique sporty styling like what Toyota did with the new Prius and CH-R crossover. 

 

This. And the Fusion as well, including the Active versions of both.

[akirby]

Ford has 2 problems.  1 - they start something then find something better or more attractive and start over, sometimes more than once.  You have to wonder if things like Rivian and MEB were forced by upper mgt and once the engineers got involved they identified all sorts of problems.  Probably need more due diligence up front.  Sometimes the market changes out of their control but I think that’s rare.  2 - they take so long to do things that by the time it comes to fruition the market has changed 

[fuzzymoomoo]

17 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

GM have not set the world on fire with their Ultium start up,

So much so that Warren Buffett/Berkshire Hathaway just unloaded half of their shares in GM

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2023/08/15/berkshire-hathaway-warren-buffetts-firm-cuts-general-motors-investment-gm/70597386007/

Edited August 16, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[silvrsvt]

17 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The red flag for me was when Ford started talking about more hybrids, most people saw that as products like the C2 based hybrids but maybe it’s more about the F150 hybrids with things like on site power option.

 

IMO they hybrid thing is already set into motion a while back and it is the press running with it. The only major platform without a hybrid setup is the Ranger/Bronco at the moment and I'd expect that by 2025. The vast majority of Ford's EV plans are post 2025 and technically we can see 2025MY next Spring/Summer. I can see the BS getting a hybrid from the Escape/Maverick when it gets it refresh. 

 

What Ford is putting out to the press is to increase stock value.