Ford pushes back EV target, warns of wider losses due to slower-than-expected adoption

[tbone]

9 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

The Evos looks great but it reminds me of an ICE version of the Mach-E. It’s quite clear that they have styling similarities. Am I wrong?

I don’t disagree, but since there is no ICE Mach E this would be a great option for those that like the style but don’t want an EV, and I think there are more of those types of people than the manufacturers would like to admit.  

[rmc523]

17 minutes ago, tbone said:

I agree they should manufacture the Evos here.   It’s a great looking vehicle that I think would sell well. After the dump the NA Edge they are going to be slim on product.  
 

The Edge on the other hand, is a hard pass.  That needs substantial rework for the US market IMO.  

 

Ford Authority is reporting per "sources" that the US Edge will be replaced with an EV, but has no timeline for it.

 

So take it with a grain of salt at this point.

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

The Evos looks great but it reminds me of an ICE version of the Mach-E. It’s quite clear that they have styling similarities. Am I wrong?

 

Not wrong at all Oacjay98, in fact former Ford NA Product Communications Director Mark Levine said that Mustang Mach-E and Evos "have similar silhouettes".

 

Levine also was firm in his statement that Evos is not coming to North America.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by rperez817

[Oac98]

55 minutes ago, tbone said:

I don’t disagree, but since there is no ICE Mach E this would be a great option for those that like the style but don’t want an EV, and I think there are more of those types of people than the manufacturers would like to admit.  

It’s a great vehicle but we know it’s not coming to North America like ever lol

[Oac98]

11 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Not wrong at all Oacjay98, in fact Ford NA Product Communications Director Mark Levine said that Mustang Mach-E and Evos "have similar silhouettes".

 

Levine also was firm in his statement that Evos is not coming to North America.

 

 

Makes me sick that China has some better looking products than we do in my opinion.

[Oac98]

48 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Ford Authority is reporting per "sources" that the US Edge will be replaced with an EV, but has no timeline for it.

 

So take it with a grain of salt at this point.

I’m taking it with a big grain of salt. Jim Farley said the Edge is a commodity product, so why would they make an EV version. They still haven’t told us or showed us what we will be building at OAC. Just rumours and hearsay! 

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

I’m taking it with a big grain of salt. Jim Farley said the Edge is a commodity product, so why would they make an EV version. They still haven’t told us or showed us what we will be building at OAC. Just rumours and hearsay! 

I’m concerned that Ford is about to follow Tesla Y too closely instead of committing to a proper boxy 3 row SUV.

This is Ford changing it mind again and worrying that a boxy BEV Explorer/Aviator would conquest Chicago AP,

Ford is not thinking transition to EV, they’re back to adding product above ICEs. Back and forth we go……..

 

The way Mustang Mach E sales are folding up, Ford should move it to Oakville with the GEII vehicles, rebranding it as a BEV Edge to get a second life out of it as a more affordable vehicle. The swoops new aero BEV should be the new Mach E.

Edited August 25, 2023 by jpd80

[Oac98]

23 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

I’m concerned that Ford is about to follow Tesla Y too closely instead of committing to a proper boxy 3 row SUV.

This is Ford changing it mind again and worrying that a boxy BEV Explorer/Aviator would conquest Chicago AP,

Ford is not thinking transition to EV, they’re back to adding product above ICEs. Back and forth we go……..

 

The way Mustang Mach E sales are folding up, Ford should move it to Oakville with the GEII vehicles, rebranding it as a BEV Edge to get a second life out of it as a more affordable vehicle. The swoops new aero BEV should be the new Mach E.

It’s all about aerodynamics according to what I’ve read. They have no product to show yet they’re probably still working out the kinks. Remember that the Mach-e and these two products OAC is supposed to get were all gonna be built at Cuatitlan Assembly. We will see if the Mach-E ever gets to the numbers they want. Interesting ideas you have that I doubt Ford will do unfortunately.

[Rangers09]

5 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

V2G and similar efforts will have limited impact on overall grid in my opinion.  V2G is a good idea that should be fully evaluated and pursued if it makes sense, but numbers suggest to me that it is like comparing a First Aid Kit with a proper Hospital Emergency Room.  We need both, but ultimately we need so much power that it will take huge investment.  V2G will help but it’s not a primary solution IMO.

 

The average US household consumed 11,880 kWh in 2020, so we can see that many families with two or more vehicles could easily need an additional 50% of energy or greater.  A member here mentioned traveling 17,000 miles in one year, and if at +/- 2 miles per kWh, it would take 8,500 kWh annually.  That’s a large percentage of a single household’s average 11,880 kWh.

 

V2G may be a great “backup”, particularly at first when BEVs are a small percentage of total vehicles, but can it really contribute much as BEVs become much more popular?  I think we need to get busy building power plants because we will need a lot of power for BEVs.

 

 

“The program will focus on the benefits of V2G technology for both customers and the energy grid. The ability for electric vehicles to send power to and from the car’s battery to the grid has made them powerful backup energy options.“

 

When considering power grid upgrades, another factor to consider is the local neighbourhood distribution network.

 

Locally, we have ample power both for local needs and export to the US (we export about 11TWh annually). Next year we have a new 1,100 megawatt dam coming online, which took 9 year to build and  we also have sufficient high voltage grid capacity to move the power from the dams to our local population centres and for export to the US.

 

Our issue with increasing home electrical loads, is the neighbourhood distribution networks, which are insufficient to double the supply to many homes. Therefore, we have lots of power and can get it to the cities, but are limited in getting more power to homes.

 

If this is also an issue in many US neighbourhoods, the solution is more than increasing generating capacity and high voltage transmission line capacity. You also have to upgrade the above or below ground distribution cables. Having just doubled our home service, it is also an expensive project.

[jpd80]

12 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

It’s all about aerodynamics according to what I’ve read. They have no product to show yet they’re probably still working out the kinks. Remember that the Mach-e and these two products OAC is supposed to get were all gonna be built at Cuatitlan Assembly. We will see if the Mach-E ever gets to the numbers they want. Interesting ideas you have that I doubt Ford will do unfortunately.

Yes, I suspect that Ford is behind the curve on range numbers and clearly it is trying to make up ground by choosing aero designs to do that. I have to ask, “but is that really what customers want after Ford PR went on and on about customer preference for chunky trucks and SUVs?” My guess is that Ford has once again painted itself into a corner with BEV expectations and now looking for a way out….

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

I’m concerned that Ford is about to follow Tesla Y too closely instead of committing to a proper boxy 3 row SUV.

This is Ford changing it mind again and worrying that a boxy BEV Explorer/Aviator would conquest Chicago AP,

Ford is not thinking transition to EV, they’re back to adding product above ICEs. Back and forth we go……..

 

The way Mustang Mach E sales are folding up, Ford should move it to Oakville with the GEII vehicles, rebranding it as a BEV Edge to get a second life out of it as a more affordable vehicle. The swoops new aero BEV should be the new Mach E.

If they're smart, they'll offer the areo design alongside something more conventional. Hell, call the boxy design expedition, explorer, even excursion. The areo design can compete on cost and range, the boxy design can compete on looks and lifestyle. 

 

Ford's strategy has a gaping hole in it. They keep running from the fight, everytime segments become crowded, instead of finding unique ways to boost profitability, they just peace out. What happens when every vehicle segment inevitably becomes hyper competitive? 

 

If they're really gonna jump around and play of zigging where everyone else zags, well most of your rivals have left the sedan market Ford. It seems like that's where we'll end back up sooner or later anyways with EVs needing to be lower to the ground with lower rooflines and smoother shapes, may as well beat your rivals to the punch. 

 

Ford left sedans behind in favor of two row suvs and crossovers. Now they're leaving two row CUVs behind for three rows. In a few years, they'll be leaving three rows behind for...

[silvrsvt]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Ford Authority is reporting per "sources" that the US Edge will be replaced with an EV, but has no timeline for it.

 

So take it with a grain of salt at this point.

Yep

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/08/north-american-ford-edge-will-be-replaced-by-an-ev/

[bzcat]

9 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Yep

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/08/north-american-ford-edge-will-be-replaced-by-an-ev/

 

The plan is good. It's the gap between current Edge phase out and replacement that is baffling. 

 

The article says the replacement EV is coming after 2nd gen Lightning launch. So we are talking about 2026? I guess it will be the companion model to 2nd gen Mach E. Meanwhile, Edge is supposed to be gone after 2023 model year, 

[jpd80]

34 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

If they're smart, they'll offer the areo design alongside something more conventional. Hell, call the boxy design expedition, explorer, even excursion. The areo design can compete on cost and range, the boxy design can compete on looks and lifestyle. 

 

Ford's strategy has a gaping hole in it. They keep running from the fight, everytime segments become crowded, instead of finding unique ways to boost profitability, they just peace out. What happens when every vehicle segment inevitably becomes hyper competitive? 

 

If they're really gonna jump around and play of zigging where everyone else zags, well most of your rivals have left the sedan market Ford. It seems like that's where we'll end back up sooner or later anyways with EVs needing to be lower to the ground with lower rooflines and smoother shapes, may as well beat your rivals to the punch. 

 

Ford left sedans behind in favor of two row suvs and crossovers. Now they're leaving two row CUVs behind for three rows. In a few years, they'll be leaving three rows behind for...

The issue here is that we are only seeing the present consequences of decisions made four or five years ago.

Pumping the brakes of rapid BEV rollout is justified if buyer commitment is not as strong as thought or preferences 

have changed to consider hybrids that don’t “run flat”

Ford let HEVs and PHEVs slide because China and Europe started legislating against their wider use by having

low or no emission zones in city areas which meant that most had to travel in charge sustain to bet there and so

created more emissions.  Now that Ford is revisiting hybrid plans for USA, we will see more product balance.

 

 

[jpd80]

8 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

The plan is good. It's the gap between current Edge phase out and replacement that is baffling. 

 

The article says the replacement EV is coming after 2nd gen Lightning launch. So we are talking about 2026? I guess it will be the companion model to 2nd gen Mach E. Meanwhile, Edge is supposed to be gone after 2023 model year, 

Im beginning to wonder if that decision gets delayed for a while, slow down change so that an vehicle similar in size  to European BEV Explorer is adopted on GE2 (changes being made to replace MEB modules continues with eliminating all VW parts?)

I don’t know what the exact answer is but we can see that Ford needs a more unified approach to making BEV crossovers and SUVs. I’m hoping that Oakville becomes the focal point for these mid sized vehicles in both two and three row versions. There’s gotta be a way to produce two Fords and two Lincoln off smart designs and different top hats.

[ice-capades]

The simply obvious solution to all these concerns about EV range... 

 

[silvrsvt]

13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Im beginning to wonder if that decision gets delayed for a while, slow down change so that an vehicle similar in size  to European BEV Explorer is adopted on GE2 (changes being made to replace MEB modules continues with eliminating all VW parts?)

I don’t know what the exact answer is but we can see that Ford needs a more unified approach to making BEV crossovers and SUVs. I’m hoping that Oakville becomes the focal point for these mid sized vehicles in both two and three row versions. There’s gotta be a way to produce two Fords and two Lincoln off smart designs and different top hats.

 

There's been rumblings of an an additional Mach E model with a different roof style (coupe?) that might be getting misidentified as the Edge replacement?

 

Given the timeline, I can see the next gen GE2 replacing the MEB in EU after it launches in NA, unless Ford is working on a B/C EV platform that will replace the current C ICE range 10 years from now. 

 

 

[Rick73]

14 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Yes, I suspect that Ford is behind the curve on range numbers and clearly it is trying to make up ground by choosing aero designs to do that. I have to ask, “but is that really what customers want after Ford PR went on and on about customer preference for chunky trucks and SUVs?” My guess is that Ford has once again painted itself into a corner with BEV expectations and now looking for a way out….

With upcoming Tesla Supercharger deal perhaps highway range won’t be as important to buyers in future, plus most BEVs already seem to have adequate range for local trips; provided they can charge at home. Initially it seemed some manufacturers wanted to be the next Tesla, except with traditional vehicles rather than very-aero Tesla-like that provided range advantage.  Some buyers may indeed be confused by mixed messages, not to mention buyers who don’t live in houses with easy access to home charging.  Maybe to them city range is also important, though aerodynamics doesn’t add as much value at slower driving speeds anyway.  In any case, it’s hard to imagine many buyers choosing BEVs unless they can charge at home, and if that’s the case, maybe they don’t care that much about range to start with.

 

I’m interested to see how Tesla Cybertruck sales do given it’s the first Tesla that is not very aero, and may have reduced highway range for its battery capacity; though it may not sell well due to controversial appearance alone.

[jpd80]

8 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

There's been rumblings of an an additional Mach E model with a different roof style (coupe?) that might be getting misidentified as the Edge replacement?

So thinking about that (I could be way off here) if the next generation of Mach E is a lot more swoopy/aero, then that would help Mach E’s sporty identity while freeing up the existing utility body to be repurposed as another BEV rather than importing the Chinese Edge or Evos.

Just a thought as everything to do with new BEV product at Ford is probably very fluid ( looking at best use and savings)

 

Quote

 

Given the timeline, I can see the next gen GE2 replacing the MEB in EU after it launches in NA, unless Ford is working on a B/C EV platform that will replace the current C ICE range 10 years from now. 

Correct IMO.

The change in European battery regulations gave Ford the opportunity to replace the VW battery and controller of MEB based Euro EV Explorer. Then it was leaked that motors and drive units were also being replaced.
 

 It’s quite funny actually, except for VW switchgear and suspension units, everything else now seems to be coming from Ford suppliers. It’s like Ford used MEB as a brownfield development that now has a lot of GE2 parts.  

Edited August 26, 2023 by jpd80

[AM222]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:03 AM, Oacjay98 said:

The Evos looks great but it reminds me of an ICE version of the Mach-E. It’s quite clear that they have styling similarities. Am I wrong?

There are similarities,  Ford's new design language "Progressive Energy in Strength'" which it previewed in China back in 2020 seems to have hints of Mustang. 

 

The Evos is the 5-door crossover version of the new Mondeo aka Taurus (in the Middle East) 

Edited August 27, 2023 by AM222

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, AM222 said:

There are similarities,  Ford's new design language "Progressive Energy in Strength'" which it previewed in China back in 2020 seems to have hints of Mustang. 

 

The Evos is the 5-door crossover version of the new Mondeo aka Taurus (in the Middle East) 

At the time we assumed this sculpture was hinting at the s650's design. Maybe it previews the s750 instead. 

[AM222]

18 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

At the time we assumed this sculpture was hinting at the s650's design. Maybe it previews the s750 instead. 

I think the S650 uses the Mustang version of the new design language. Mustangs will have a more hexagonal looking grille, while normal Fords get a more octagonal looking grille. Both have the slim headlight/DRL & big grille proportions.(Though most Chinese Fords use the split headlight design.)  The S650 has adopted the twin screen look (digital cluster + infotainment screen) first introduced in new Chinese Ford models. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by AM222

[rmc523]

On 8/25/2023 at 6:38 PM, jpd80 said:

Yes, I suspect that Ford is behind the curve on range numbers and clearly it is trying to make up ground by choosing aero designs to do that. I have to ask, “but is that really what customers want after Ford PR went on and on about customer preference for chunky trucks and SUVs?” My guess is that Ford has once again painted itself into a corner with BEV expectations and now looking for a way out….

 

Yeah, as I've said previously, I have no problem with Ford offering a swoopy aerodynamic model.  Just don't use the traditional names on it, and sell it side by side with more traditional/boxy models, and let the customer decide.....especially with competition (namely Kia at the moment) offering a traditional boxy SUV.  Don't force them into something they may not want as the only option or go elsewhere, because they will.

 

On 8/26/2023 at 9:45 AM, silvrsvt said:

 

There's been rumblings of an an additional Mach E model with a different roof style (coupe?) that might be getting misidentified as the Edge replacement?

 

Given the timeline, I can see the next gen GE2 replacing the MEB in EU after it launches in NA, unless Ford is working on a B/C EV platform that will replace the current C ICE range 10 years from now. 

 

 

 

I still question the viability of this supposed coupe Mach E.  But we'll see.

[AM222]

28 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Yeah, as I've said previously, I have no problem with Ford offering a swoopy aerodynamic model.  Just don't use the traditional names on it, and sell it side by side with more traditional/boxy models, and let the customer decide.....especially with competition (namely Kia at the moment) offering a traditional boxy SUV.  Don't force them into something they may not want as the only option or go elsewhere, because they will.

 

 

I still question the viability of this supposed coupe Mach E.  But we'll see.

Maybe Mach E will evolve (split) into a lower car and taller crossover, like Porsche's Taycan and the lifted Taycan Cross Turismo.

 

With a lower more aerodynamic car body, Ford can have a variant with more range out of the same battery pack. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by AM222

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

I still question the viability of this supposed coupe Mach E.  But we'll see.

 

Yeah I'm guessing its something completely different at this stage