UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[fuzzymoomoo]

9 minutes ago, Willwll313wll said:

Without speculating, I am not sure how far are they are from what the UAW is demanding. I also wonder what these increases will ACTUALLY cost Ford.

I get the feeling the stuff that remains to be settled is the stuff there’s no way on god’s green earth the company is going to agree to like pensions for all, post-retirement health care and the battery plant representation issue. 

[akirby]

I would not be surprised if Ford threatens to lock them out within the next week if there is no movement.  You can’t let the union get away with these partial strikes and game playing.

[akirby]

8 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I get the feeling the stuff that remains to be settled is the stuff there’s no way on god’s green earth the company is going to agree to like pensions for all, post-retirement health care and the battery plant representation issue. 

Ford already said publicly they cannot add more money to the deal.  They are maxed out.  They can move things around but that’s it.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Arbitration is 100 percent needed

Edited October 16, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[akirby]

8 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Arbitration is 100 percent needed

Agreed.  Where is the NLRB?

[Willwll313wll]

19 minutes ago, akirby said:

Ford already said publicly they cannot add more money to the deal.  They are maxed out.  They can move things around but that’s it.

 

I'm not sure I 100% believe they cant do any more and are maxed out. Not saying they should be maxed out either. I can believe they are maxed out where they WANT to be but I'm not sure if where they want to be is where they should be. Not saying the UAW should get everything they are asking for with no question, but I'm definitely not on the side of "Ford has done everything it can do, and anything more will destroy the industry." Sounds like fear mongering to be honest!

 

Still rooting for both sides to get this right!!

Edited October 16, 2023 by Willwll313wll

[ice-capades]

9 minutes ago, akirby said:

I would not be surprised if Ford threatens to lock them out within the next week if there is no movement.  You can’t let the union get away with these partial strikes and game playing.

 

I think that what Bill Ford said was a well presented corporate public relations and branding message. We obviously don't know what's being communicated behind closed doors, but I expect that Ford's relationship with the UAW will be different in the future. Ford needs to let the UAW know that it's risking future, potential UAW jobs, and announce that it's going to resume and complete construction of the facility in Mexico. It won't make a difference now regarding production but will send a strong message and give Ford a new facility to utilize in a few years.

[Flying68]

28 minutes ago, Willwll313wll said:

Without speculating, I am not sure how far are they are from what the UAW is demanding. I also wonder what these increases will ACTUALLY cost Ford, taking into account Ford having $24 billion in profits last year. By comparison (Not that I think it's a completely fair one), Tesla's profit was half that over the same time period.

They did not have $24B in profits.  They had a net profit in 2021 of $17.9B in 2021 and a net loss in 2022 of $2.0B.  So far in 2023 they have reported a net profit of $3.7B for the first half.  Gross profit which I believe is what you are referring to was about $24B in 2022, but that is just total revenue - cost of sales and doesn't count any other expenses like corporate overhead, interest expenses, investments, etc..

[fuzzymoomoo]

23 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

I think that what Bill Ford said was a well presented corporate public relations and branding message. We obviously don't know what's being communicated behind closed doors, but I expect that Ford's relationship with the UAW will be different in the future. Ford needs to let the UAW know that it's risking future, potential UAW jobs, and announce that it's going to resume and complete construction of the facility in Mexico. It won't make a difference now regarding production but will send a strong message and give Ford a new facility to utilize in a few years.

I 100 percent agree with you, but I think doing that is only going to stir the pot with union leaders, well one in particular at least, and cause them to dig their heels in even more. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[paintguy]

17 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

I think that what Bill Ford said was a well presented corporate public relations and branding message. We obviously don't know what's being communicated behind closed doors, but I expect that Ford's relationship with the UAW will be different in the future. Ford needs to let the UAW know that it's risking future, potential UAW jobs, and announce that it's going to resume and complete construction of the facility in Mexico. It won't make a difference now regarding production but will send a strong message and give Ford a new facility to utilize in a few years.

I've been concerned about the same thing. That facility was being developed with a degree of secrecy. When it was shelved, not a bunch of information about % completion. Also plans seemed well along. So not starting from green field. 

[Willwll313wll]

11 minutes ago, Flying68 said:

They did not have $24B in profits.  They had a net profit in 2021 of $17.9B in 2021 and a net loss in 2022 of $2.0B.  So far in 2023 they have reported a net profit of $3.7B for the first half.  Gross profit which I believe is what you are referring to was about $24B in 2022, but that is just total revenue - cost of sales and doesn't count any other expenses like corporate overhead, interest expenses, investments, etc..

 

Thanks for the clarification! That does put things a little more in context for me.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Willwll313wll

[akirby]

14 minutes ago, Willwll313wll said:

 

I'm not sure I 100% believe they cant do any more and are maxed out. Not saying they should be maxed out either. I can believe they are maxed out where they WANT to be but I'm not sure if where they want to be is where they should be. Not saying the UAW should get everything they are asking for with no question, but I'm definitely not on the side of "Ford has done everything it can do, and anything more will destroy the industry." Sounds like fear mongering to be honest!

 

Still rooting for both sides to get this right!!

They cannot meet those demands and continue to compete with the non UAW mfrs.  Toyota, Tesla and Kia will cut prices and still make a decent profit while Ford barely breaks even or loses money.   A minor economic downturn wipes out all profit.  Sales will fall.  Shifts get cut.  Credit rating drops.  Stock price continues to fall.  It’s a recipe for disaster.  Ford is saying it won’t be worth continuing to build vehicles in the US if they have no hope of decent profit margins.

 

If I told you to give me $1000 and I’ll give you $40 in interest every year what would you say?  You’d take your money elsewhere or just keep it.  That’s a 4% profit margin.  Now cut that in half - $20.  Hardly seems worth the effort.  Ford is not exaggerating- it isn’t worth even trying to build stuff here at those costs.  So the UAW loses everything.  Or they can take the current offer and continue to grow with record compensation and 100% job protection for current workers.

[akirby]

14 minutes ago, Willwll313wll said:

 

Thanks for the clarification! That does put things a little more in context for me.

Ford is running around $10B operating profit per year give or take (excluding the accounting adjustments) which is between a 4%-8% profit margin.  If current labor costs are 5% and union demands double the current cost there goes your profit and there goes future investments, credit rating, stock price especially if the competition cuts their prices.  That’s what happened in 2008.  Costs were too high, margins were too low and the recession cut sales overnight and Ford was on the brink of bankruptcy.  

[ice-capades]

21 minutes ago, akirby said:

Agreed.  Where is the NLRB?

 

It was quite a few years ago now, but I was a Business Agent for 8 years and not only rewrote all the contracts but handled numerous NLRB cases and precedent setting cases in federal court. Our cases involved a small group of union members that formed a rival, independent union, yet were still employed and represented by IATSE (International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees) contracts at a number of locations. The IATSE Motion Picture Local that I represented had excellent relations with the theatre owners and management which were also codefendents with the IATSE Local. The IATSE Local that I represented won every single NLRB decision along with all related court decisions.

 

Unless the NLRB regulations and procedures have changed, the NLRB can't get involved unless specific unfair labor practice charges are filed by one of the parties. We only know what's been reported through the media and little, if anything, of what has happened behind closed doors that would actually support NLRB charges. UAW President Fain's strategy, rhetoric and actions appear to be his plan for a prolonged strike that would serve his own agenda more than that of the represented autoworkers that are bearing the impact.  

[akirby]

7 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

 

Unless the NLRB regulations and procedures have changed, the NLRB can't get involved unless specific unfair labor practice charges are filed by one of the parties. We only know what's been reported through the media and little, if anything, of what has happened behind closed doors that would actually support NLRB charges. UAW President Fain's strategy, rhetoric and actions appear to be his plan for a prolonged strike that would serve his own agenda more than that of the represented autoworkers that are bearing the impact.  

I get it but the leaked emails alone should show bad faith bargaining.  Also the mere fact that they won’t take the company’s best and final offer back for a vote.  

[ice-capades]

30 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I 100 percent agree with you, but I think doing that is only going to stir the pot with union leaders, well one in particular at least, and cause them to dig their heels in even more. 

 

I think it's time for Ford to stir the pot and take action to put the UAW in a defensive position. Enough of these UAW games and outrageous demands. From what we know, there's been no negotiation, only numerous concessions from the OEM's that will be very costly and high risk. It would be interesting to know what the UAW is actually contributing to reach an agreement.  

Edited October 16, 2023 by ice-capades
Additional Content

[fuzzymoomoo]

15 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

It would be interesting to know what the UAW is actually contributing to reach an agreement. 

Sounds like not much at all. 
 

I will say this, after this is all over if the union thinks they can keep up the status quo as far as attendance policy and other day to day operational matters are concerned they can kiss that goodbye. I think gone are the days where if you get fired for attendance policy violations you wait a set period and get your job back with back pay and retaining your seniority. 

[DeluxeStang]

Higher ranking members of the UAW come across as completely clueless to me. 

[Oac98]

1 hour ago, Flying68 said:

So basically Bill just said that if the UAW doesn't get real, they are going to go away real fast along with all the other domestic manufacturers as the supply base collapses and they have to close plants due to inability to invest and compete.

Yes I agree in a very corporate and polite manner. 

[Oac98]

16 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Sounds like not much at all. 
 

I will say this, after this is all over if the union thinks they can keep up the status quo as far as attendance policy and other day to day operational matters are concerned they can kiss that goodbye. I think gone are the days where if you get fired for attendance policy violations you wait a set period and get your job back with back pay and retaining your seniority. 

That’s why I keep asking what will the fallout of all this be? There will be retaliation in some form. 

[akirby]

12 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

That’s why I keep asking what will the fallout of all this be? There will be retaliation in some form. 

Not retaliation.  Consequences.  Not out of spite just business decisions forced by the terms of the agreement and strikes.

[Oac98]

14 minutes ago, akirby said:

Not retaliation.  Consequences.  Not out of spite just business decisions forced by the terms of the agreement and strikes.

That’s a better way of putting it. Unifor GM 80 percent ratification much better than our 54 percent at Ford up here. The reason for that is when GM Oshawa reopened they hired 1-2000 people so of course they would vote in favor because in progression much lower and now and a substantial pay bump. I don’t blame them. I can’t predict when this UAW situation is gonna end. UAW and Ford both seem resolute at this current moment. When the smoke clears all business plans will be reviewed in terms of future operations and investments. I tell people this at work I get blasted. OH WELL. I know this much it’s not the old days, way too many other companies out there now. It’s a cutthroat environment.

[T-dubz]

1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I think gone are the days where if you get fired for attendance policy violations you wait a set period and get your job back with back pay and retaining your seniority. 

This sounds ridiculous. First, why would you hire someone back that you fired, and second, why would you pay them back pay if you did hire them back? The more I hear about the UAW and the manufacturers, the more I feel like I’m in La La Land.

[Gurgeh]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

They cannot meet those demands and continue to compete with the non UAW mfrs.  Toyota, Tesla and Kia will cut prices and still make a decent profit while Ford barely breaks even or loses money.   A minor economic downturn wipes out all profit.  Sales will fall.  Shifts get cut.  Credit rating drops.  Stock price continues to fall.  It’s a recipe for disaster.  Ford is saying it won’t be worth continuing to build vehicles in the US if they have no hope of decent profit margins.

 

If I told you to give me $1000 and I’ll give you $40 in interest every year what would you say?  You’d take your money elsewhere or just keep it.  That’s a 4% profit margin.  Now cut that in half - $20.  Hardly seems worth the effort.  Ford is not exaggerating- it isn’t worth even trying to build stuff here at those costs.  So the UAW loses everything.  Or they can take the current offer and continue to grow with record compensation and 100% job protection for current workers.

I suspect that even if the UAW accepts Ford's best and final offer, it is such a rich offer that there may well still be consequences in terms of moving more production out of the United States. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Gurgeh

[akirby]

15 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

I suspect that even if the UAW accepts Ford's last and final offer, it is such a rich offer that there may well still be consequences in terms of moving more production out of the United States. 

Well you can forget any low priced vehicles that’s for sure.  Time to dust off that partially completed plant in Mexico.