Ford August 2023 Sales Results

[HotRunrGuy]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

Maverick was the right carat the right time..I DO wonder how profitable it is for Ford though....

 

Dealers by me are still asking $5K+ markups on Mav, even the non-hybrid ones. 

 

HRG

[Deanh]

6 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

Dealers by me are still asking $5K+ markups on Mav, even the non-hybrid ones. 

 

HRG

sign of availability...or should I say lack of...along with strong demand I guess...there were some dealers around here at doublethat on hybrids specifically....

[Harley Lover]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

That’s why 5K/mo th isn’t bad if they can sustain it.  Remember that doesn’t include exports.

 

Isn't the new build rate something like 150k annually? If that's the figure, 5k/month in the U.S. ain't gonna cut it. 8k a month, close to 100k/year in the U.S. would make more sense (being optimistic that Ford could move 4k/month in Europe).

 

Anecdotally it appears that demand is soft for EV's. Hyundai is offering $5k off on Ioniq 5 AND 6 - a surprise on the 6 in particular. Their discount tracks with what Deanh is reporting on incentives for MME. Something seems to have changed in the demand curve - it's a different market than several months ago where dealers were laying on the ADMs hot and heavy. Maybe it's as simple as Tesla's price drops forcing the competition to do the same.

[Deanh]

11 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Isn't the new build rate something like 150k annually? If that's the figure, 5k/month in the U.S. ain't gonna cut it. 8k a month, close to 100k/year in the U.S. would make more sense (being optimistic that Ford could move 4k/month in Europe).

 

Anecdotally it appears that demand is soft for EV's. Hyundai is offering $5k off on Ioniq 5 AND 6 - a surprise on the 6 in particular. Their discount tracks with what Deanh is reporting on incentives for MME. Something seems to have changed in the demand curve - it's a different market than several months ago where dealers were laying on the ADMs hot and heavy. Maybe it's as simple as Tesla's price drops forcing the competition to do the same.

when the "E" first hit, demand was unreal...I guess thats possibly why the downturn is so noticable from my standpoint...will say this...the people that jumped on the bandwagon and bough the Transits are sure regretting it...not so much the Machs or the Lightnings...well, there was a case of a guy that bought a lightning and the very next day Ford announced a 10k discount.....

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, Texasota said:

It will be fascinating to watch and I'm hoping that Ford's investment in their hybrid portfolio will pay dividends. I will be helping by ordering a Ranger PHEV when they become available.

 

I agree with you Texasota that it's fascinating from a Ford customer standpoint to how see different companies' (Ford and its competitors) strategies play out amid the ongoing automotive industry revolution. I'm hoping that hybrids serve Ford's short term regulatory compliance needs well, but at the same time hope that those hybrids don't become a distraction to Ford's longer-term goals of ramping up BEV production to a 2 million/year run rate by 2026, and of having a 100% ZEV product lineup everywhere it does business by 2040.

[tbone]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

It sounds like the extended range models are what customers are ordering and buying off the lots and std range models that dealers were forced to buy are the ones gathering dust.  If they can stay near 5K/month that will be good.  Remember that doesn’t count all the exports.

I’ve been driving a Mach E AWD extended range and I would classify the range as barely adequate.  I dont have the ability to charge it over night so it is almost like driving a gas vehicle, so I really get to feel the impact of the range.  I can’t imagine what the standard range battery would be like, so it’s not surprising those are lingering on lots.  

Edited September 8, 2023 by tbone

[tbone]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

My opinion is young buyers today are not at all brand conscious or brand loyal like they (we) were 30 years ago.  Honda civic buyers flocked to Maverick in droves.  You see it in NASCAR where people root for drivers not brands.  They don’t care if their driver goes from a Ford to a Toyota.  I don’t think most drivers care.

 

Features are almost ubiquitous across all brands and 95% of vehicles are reliable enough that it’s not a big factor in choosing a vehicle.  It mostly comes down to price and styling and with hybrids, fuel economy.  

I understand that perspective, but if you don’t get people into your vehicles early you don’t know what kind of relationship can be developed with the manufacturer.  

[tbone]

4 hours ago, Deanh said:

I think somewhere affordability has to be adressed as well...its getting crazy...

I do think this is a major issue.  Prices don’t typically come down but clearly they have been willing to drop the BEV prices so I wonder if we will see it in the ICE arena at some point.  

[tbone]

4 hours ago, Deanh said:

…well, there was a case of a guy that bought a lightning and the very next day Ford announced a 10k discount.....

I would have lost my mind if that happened to me.  Certainly will also have an impact on trade value in the future.  It’s a bummer for anyone that paid the high prices.  

[mackinaw]

2 hours ago, tbone said:

I’ve been driving a Mach E AWD extended range and I would classify the range as barely adequate. 

 

What kind of range are you getting?  

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, tbone said:

I’ve been driving a Mach E AWD extended range and I would classify the range as barely adequate.  I dont have the ability to charge it over night so it is almost like driving a gas vehicle, so I really get to feel the impact of the range. 

 

Do you have the FordPass app set up for your Mustang Mach-E?

[rmc523]

20 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Isn't the new build rate something like 150k annually? If that's the figure, 5k/month in the U.S. ain't gonna cut it. 8k a month, close to 100k/year in the U.S. would make more sense (being optimistic that Ford could move 4k/month in Europe).

 

Anecdotally it appears that demand is soft for EV's. Hyundai is offering $5k off on Ioniq 5 AND 6 - a surprise on the 6 in particular. Their discount tracks with what Deanh is reporting on incentives for MME. Something seems to have changed in the demand curve - it's a different market than several months ago where dealers were laying on the ADMs hot and heavy. Maybe it's as simple as Tesla's price drops forcing the competition to do the same.

 

Well, the 6 is droopy and ugly, so maybe that's why lol.

 

I cannot understand why magazines were giving it rave reviews for styling.

[Deanh]

17 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Well, the 6 is droopy and ugly, so maybe that's why lol.

 

I cannot understand why magazines were giving it rave reviews for styling.

easy.,..advertising revenue.

[jpd80]

8 hours ago, Deanh said:

easy.,..advertising revenue.

Promising to rave over designs that will be tricky to sell in North America?

easy money for advertising but I pity Hyundai’s sales staff, no foot traffic is a worry….

[tbone]

On 9/7/2023 at 10:24 PM, mackinaw said:

 

What kind of range are you getting?  

I have been maintaining a log and will provide some updates soon on the experience so far. 

[tbone]

On 9/7/2023 at 10:56 PM, rperez817 said:

 

Do you have the FordPass app set up for your Mustang Mach-E?

At the moment, we are not using it.  
 

10 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Well, the 6 is droopy and ugly, so maybe that's why lol.

 

I cannot understand why magazines were giving it rave reviews for styling.

 

Yes, another terrible design. About the only Hyundai design I can get behind is the new Santa Fe. 

[Rick73]

17 hours ago, rmc523 said:

Well, the 6 is droopy and ugly, so maybe that's why lol.

Yeah, it’s difficult to make aerodynamic shape look good if also having to be practical/functional, though designers need to keep trying because it’s so important for relatively affordable BEVs due to limited available energy.

 

Mercedes recently introduced a CLA concept that some expect could challenge the Tesla Model 3.  Estimated efficiency is quite good, but we will have to see how much it changes.  Claimed 5+ miles per kWh is great, even under WLTP.  An aero vehicle similar to the CLA or Tesla 3 is required if trying to combine affordability and adequate driving range.  Efficiency also makes charging faster, as in this case close to 1,000 MPH.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t recall reading Ford having much interest in this type of smaller and aero BEV, focusing instead on trucks and SUVs.  They must think that’s what buyers will purchase even if at higher cost, and greater margin for them.  Interesting note in article mentions Mercedes is sidestepping EQ branding for lower-cost CLA.  Maybe they are seeing limited demand for expensive BEVs much like Tesla with S and X?

 

https://electrek.co/2023/09/03/mercedes-cla-concept-the-long-range-entry-level-ev-weve-awaited/
 

[rmc523]

4 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Yeah, it’s difficult to make aerodynamic shape look good if also having to be practical/functional, though designers need to keep trying because it’s so important for relatively affordable BEVs due to limited available energy.

 

Mercedes recently introduced a CLA concept that some expect could challenge the Tesla Model 3.  Estimated efficiency is quite good, but we will have to see how much it changes.  Claimed 5+ miles per kWh is great, even under WLTP.  An aero vehicle similar to the CLA or Tesla 3 is required if trying to combine affordability and adequate driving range.  Efficiency also makes charging faster, as in this case close to 1,000 MPH.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t recall reading Ford having much interest in this type of smaller and aero BEV, focusing instead on trucks and SUVs.  They must think that’s what buyers will purchase even if at higher cost, and greater margin for them.  Interesting note in article mentions Mercedes is sidestepping EQ branding for lower-cost CLA.  Maybe they are seeing limited demand for expensive BEVs much like Tesla with S and X?

 

https://electrek.co/2023/09/03/mercedes-cla-concept-the-long-range-entry-level-ev-weve-awaited/
 

 

Well, I also feel like the new Mercedes EVs look like melted bars of soap.

 

They're ditching the EQ branding because they realize that if they switch everything over, there won't need to be a delineation of EV.  It'll just be the S, the E., etc

[ice-capades]

I'll post this here regarding the discussion about BEV sales...

 

I was looking at my dealership's online inventory and came across a 2022 F-150 Lightning Platinum (MSRP = $92,569) in the pre-owned inventory with 10,546 miles being advertised at $74,988. Interesting. 

 

 

 

T3165B_2022 F-150 Lightning Platinum_1FT6W1EV1NWG09640.pdf

Edited September 9, 2023 by ice-capades
Additional Content

[silvrsvt]

On 9/8/2023 at 1:33 PM, rmc523 said:

 

Well, the 6 is droopy and ugly, so maybe that's why lol.

 

I cannot understand why magazines were giving it rave reviews for styling.

 

I haven't seen one in person yet, but I kinda like it but don't? The rear is werid, but need to see how it looks not in photos

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, ice-capades said:

I'll post this here regarding the discussion about BEV sales...

 

I was looking at my dealership's online inventory and came across a 2022 F-150 Lightning Platinum (MSRP = $92,569) in the pre-owned inventory with 10,546 miles being advertised at $74,988. Interesting. 

 

 

T3165B_2022 F-150 Lightning Platinum_1FT6W1EV1NWG09640.pdf

Wow, that’s a big drop, is that because Ford knows there’s  not a lot of buyer interest?

[ice-capades]

10 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Wow, that’s a big drop, is that because Ford knows there’s not a lot of buyer interest?

 

Ford and its Dealers have to be concerned right now about the drop off this year in BEV interest and sales. With the substantial price increases for all vehicles over the past few years, there had to be "push back" from the market at some point which has been a concern of mine for some time. Vehicle prices are just one factor, not including the drop off after the initial "early adopter" demand, the range and charging infrastructure issues, etc. plus the impact of inflation and cost of living expenses, rising insurance rates, substantially higher interest rates, etc. 

 

Tesla is least affected in sales volume but competing on price to maintain volume while forcing their competitors to adjust pricing to maintain their own positions. Tesla has a distinct advantage with its longevity in the BEV market, established owner body and its "Cool" factor similar to Apple in many regards. In addition, there should be a price protection window to protect customers that purchased BEV vehicles with substantial price cuts during a designated timeframe and paid refunds to customers that paid the higher prices.

 

Ford has required Dealers to make large investments in charging infrastructure and equipment to support BEV sales. It's going to be years before those expenses are paid for. Further adventures and changes to come as the market for BEV vehicles develops over the years. Expect the unexpected during these difficult transition years!    

[tbone]

3 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Ford and its Dealers have to be concerned right now about the drop off this year in BEV interest and sales. With the substantial price increases for all vehicles over the past few years, there had to be "push back" from the market at some point which has been a concern of mine for some time. Vehicle prices are just one factor, not including the drop off after the initial "early adopter" demand, the range and charging infrastructure issues, etc. plus the impact of inflation and cost of living expenses, rising insurance rates, substantially higher interest rates, etc. 

 

Tesla is least affected in sales volume but competing on price to maintain volume while forcing their competitors to adjust pricing to maintain their own positions. Tesla has a distinct advantage with its longevity in the BEV market, established owner body and its "Cool" factor similar to Apple in many regards. In addition, there should be a price protection window to protect customers that purchased BEV vehicles with substantial price cuts during a designated timeframe and paid refunds to customers that paid the higher prices.

 

Ford has required Dealers to make large investments in charging infrastructure and equipment to support BEV sales. It's going to be years before those expenses are paid for. Further adventures and changes to come as the market for BEV vehicles develops over the years. Expect the unexpected during these difficult transition years!    

Well stated.  There is 22 MME AWD extended range near me with 17000 miles that originally stickered for $65k that is listed for $45k.  That’s a substantial drop after one year, which would certainly give me pause on buying a new one from a depreciation perspective.  I personally think the BEV market is troubled right now, which is putting all manufacturers between a rock and a hard place, and I don’t see it improving in the near term. 

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, tbone said:

Well stated.  There is 22 MME AWD extended range near me with 17000 miles that originally stickered for $65k that is listed for $45k.  That’s a substantial drop after one year, which would certainly give me pause on buying a new one from a depreciation perspective.  I personally think the BEV market is troubled right now, which is putting all manufacturers between a rock and a hard place, and I don’t see it improving in the near term. 

Early days but it seems that pricing reality is coming to some of Ford’s BEVs, this should be very unsettling to senior execs. If buyers are now rejecting premium prices for Mach E, then Ford’s plans for it will have to be drastically modified.

Edited September 10, 2023 by jpd80

[tbone]

8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Early days but it seems that pricing reality is coming to some of Ford’s BEVs, this should be very unsettling to senior execs. If buyers are now rejecting premium prices for Mach E, then Ford’s plans for it will have to be drastically modified.

I understand their desire to create premium products, believing they would cover their costs better, and I certainly understand being first to market with a BEV truck because Ford does trucks so well, and they wanted to reflect that leadership, but I think they should be looking at a new approach.
 

I personally think they should be looking at more entry level BEVs that are not focused so much on performance, as they are on range and reasonable price. 3.4 seconds 0-60 is great, and I like it, but people will also think a 6.5 second 0-60 is fast as well.  They are already losing a shit load of money on BEVs, so perhaps lose a little less money, while providing a useful vehicle people can afford and perhaps drawing more non-Ford people to the brand.