What Customers Really Want

[Spring 59]

Ford continues to shoot themselves in the foot. There are a great many people out there who want a sedan, not a truck, not an SUV or other balloon vehicle. And as we get older, we don't want to have to climb into a vehicle. I'd really hate to have to buy a competitor's product but I want a proper car. I've spoken to quite a few folks who do, as well. And we aren't interested in your electric crap. 

[Texasota 31]

As a person getting on in years it has been my experience that our Escape is much easier to get in/out of than our Fusion was. Ford got out of the sedan business because sales were poor. 

[rperez817 1,792]

22 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Ford got out of the sedan business because sales were poor. 

 

Sales declines toward the latter part of the 2010s did play a role in Ford's decision, but the primary rationale at the time was that the level of investment required to make its U.S. ICE powered sedan lineup competitive would never achieve Ford's internal rate of return targets.

[silvrsvt 4,595]

7 hours ago, Texasota said:

As a person getting on in years it has been my experience that our Escape is much easier to get in/out of than our Fusion was. 

 

I got a 2010 Fusion unexpectedly when I was waiting for my Bronco to be built. We had a 2010 and a 2017 Escape and a 2013 Taurus SHO that had higher seating. When we got into the Fusion, it felt like I was getting into my old 2006 Mustang GT I had, since the seating is so much lower to the ground then a CUV. 

 

That is part of the reason why CUV are so popular-its easier to get in and out of them, esp when your older. 

[akirby 17,537]

15 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I got a 2010 Fusion unexpectedly when I was waiting for my Bronco to be built. We had a 2010 and a 2017 Escape and a 2013 Taurus SHO that had higher seating. When we got into the Fusion, it felt like I was getting into my old 2006 Mustang GT I had, since the seating is so much lower to the ground then a CUV. 

 

That is part of the reason why CUV are so popular-its easier to get in and out of them, esp when your older. 

I’ve owned several sedans including 2 fusions.  Our Edge/MKX/Nautilus is ten times easier to get into and out of.

 

They killed sedans because they weren’t making enough profit compared to the vehicles that replaced them - Maverick, Bronco, Bronco sport and Ranger.

[rperez817 1,792]

41 minutes ago, akirby said:

 Maverick, Bronco, Bronco sport and Ranger.

 

None of those replaced Ford's sedans.

[silvrsvt 4,595]

8 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

None of those replaced Ford's sedans.

 

Michigan assembly plant-Focus to Ranger/Bronco

 

Hermosillo Assembly Plant: Fusion to Maverick/Bronco Sport

 

[akirby 17,537]

15 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

None of those replaced Ford's sedans.

They did within Ford.

[Rick73 245]

Not all sedans have seats as low to the ground, so getting in and out can vary considerably.  We rent cars at airport often and test different models.  The latest was a Toyota Camry that we didn’t like very much.  It drove nice but A pillar was sloped back so far I hit my head a couple of times.  That’s part of price for aero improvements.  Moving seats inward for safety on some models doesn’t help either, so it’s not just seat height that can make it tough.

 

No doubt that as we get older avoiding cars with very low seats is a great idea (would not want to drive classic Mustang or a Fiero GT on regular basis).  Getting out of Fiero took a lot of strength or else you looked awkward.

 

Easiest vehicles I’ve owned to get in and out were Honda CR-V and Odyssey minivan.  First generation CR-V was perfect height for me in that I could slide in or out of seat without any physical effort.  You really notice difference when driving 90-year-old family members around.

[silvrsvt 4,595]

11 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Not all sedans have seats as low to the ground, so getting in and out can vary considerably.  We rent cars at airport often and test different models.  The latest was a Toyota Camry that we didn’t like very much.  It drove nice but A pillar was sloped back so far I hit my head a couple of times.  That’s part of price for aero improvements.  Moving seats inward for safety on some models doesn’t help either, so it’s not just seat height that can make it tough.

 

I know my parents had a Edge for a rent and they complained about the A pillar being raked back too far for their likes, so its not a sedan specific thing there either. 

[GearheadGrrrl 157]

While you're sorta walking something higher than a sedan seems easiest to get into and out of, but for wheelchair users a sedan works better because it's seat height is closer to that of a wheelchair enabling horizontal transfers. A strong armed wheeler can pull themselves up. a couple inches, but most SUVs and pickups will need a $10K pivot and lower seat for them to get in. A 2 door coupe is better than a 4 door because the long door lets the wheeler put their folded wheelchair behind the front seats.

 

That's why a lot of wheelchair users buy Mustangs or hang on to old 2 door coupes, and Ford has forgotten them.

[Rick73 245]

13 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I know my parents had a Edge for a rent and they complained about the A pillar being raked back too far for their likes, so its not a sedan specific thing there either. 

Yes, improving aerodynamics on all vehicles comes at a functional cost.  One other odd thing about Camry was that front doors seemed to open wider than normal, probably to make getting in easier.  However, my wife complained that once inside she couldn’t reach the door handle to close the door.  She really hated pretty much everything about it, and said she would rather keep her existing Honda until the wheels fell off.

 

Obviously she’s not going to drive her Honda for ever, but the message to the industry should be that not all customers want vehicles designed by computer geeks.  I know renting is becoming very different than buying because you don’t have time to learn and or adjust to all the “creative” stuff that someone may have built in, but when you need to read a 100-page manual to figure out how to start and drive the car safely, something is wrong.

[Rangers09 318]

13 hours ago, Spring said:

Ford continues to shoot themselves in the foot. There are a great many people out there who want a sedan, not a truck, not an SUV or other balloon vehicle. And as we get older, we don't want to have to climb into a vehicle. I'd really hate to have to buy a competitor's product but I want a proper car. I've spoken to quite a few folks who do, as well. And we aren't interested in your electric crap. 

 

The primary reason we traded the 2015 Fusion for the 2018 Escape, is the Fusion was too difficult to get in/out of. While we have to climb into the F-450, the Escape is a perfect solution with respect to ease of entry/egress.

 

I also note the F-450 may require 2 steps for getting in, it is real easy to exit. However, the Fusion was a challenge both getting in/out.

[DeluxeStang 488]

18 hours ago, Spring said:

Ford continues to shoot themselves in the foot. There are a great many people out there who want a sedan, not a truck, not an SUV or other balloon vehicle. And as we get older, we don't want to have to climb into a vehicle. I'd really hate to have to buy a competitor's product but I want a proper car. I've spoken to quite a few folks who do, as well. And we aren't interested in your electric crap. 

I've found that older people tend to struggle more with getting in sedans than they do with trucks and SUVs. My dad can barely get in our explorer, or maverick. He's only in his late 60s, but when we rented a Corolla hybrid, it genuinely took him about 5 minutes everytime he got in or out.

 

Something like a maverick is about as good as it gets when it comes to seating position, it's higher up than a sedan, so you don't have to bend down to get in, but it's a lot lower than a full size truck. It also gets better fuel economy than most sedans and hatchbacks, rides decent ish, much better than most BOF trucks. It genuinely serves as a solid replacement for most cars. My family HATES most trucks, and we absolutely adore this thing. 

 

Unless the hybrid system absolutely shits the bed, unlikely considering the reputation Ford trucks/hybrid systems have, then I'm confident in saying it's a better vehicle than any of the sedans we've owned. If/when Ford brings back sedans, it will make more sense to position them to appeal to younger buyers. 

 

Some sort of sedan that rides on a shared hybrid/EV platforms and can be engineered for next to nothing thanks to parts sharing. Older people need practical, versatile vehicles. Younger people generally need affordable and energetic efficient vehicles with a very low cost of ownership, a small affordable EV would be perfect for them. Especially considering young people aren't really getting married/having kids these days, so it's not long they really need a large Cuv or van. 

 

 

Edited September 14 by DeluxeStang

[The Handler 82]

4 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I've found that older people tend to struggle more with getting in sedans than they do with trucks and SUVs. My dad can barely get in our explorer, or maverick. He's only in his late 60s, but when we rented a Corolla hybrid, it genuinely took him about 5 minutes everytime he got in or out.

 

Something like a maverick is about as good as it gets when it comes to seating position, it's higher up than a sedan, so you don't have to bend down to get in, but it's a lot lower than a full size truck. It also gets better fuel economy than most sedans and hatchbacks, rides decent ish, much better than most BOF trucks. It genuinely serves as a solid replacement for most cars. My family HATES most trucks, and we absolutely adore this thing. 

 

Unless the hybrid system absolutely shits the bed, unlikely considering the reputation Ford trucks/hybrid systems have, then I'm confident in saying it's a better vehicle than any of the sedans we've owned. If/when Ford brings back sedans, it will make more sense to position them to appeal to younger buyers. 

 

Some sort of sedan that rides on a shared hybrid/EV platforms and can be engineered for next to nothing thanks to parts sharing. Older people need practical, versatile vehicles. Younger people generally need affordable and energetic efficient vehicles with a very low cost of ownership, a small affordable EV would be perfect for them. Especially considering young people aren't really getting married/having kids these days, so it's not long they really need a large Cuv or van. 

 

 

Strange. My grandparents' generation had no trouble getting in and out of Town Cars and Delta 88s.

[silvrsvt 4,595]

23 minutes ago, The Handler said:

Strange. My grandparents' generation had no trouble getting in and out of Town Cars and Delta 88s.

 

It depends on how old you are-my grandmother was 75 when she passed away almost 30 years ago. I was 22 years old at the time. 

 

My father is 74 right now and my nephew just turned 17.

 

So when I was a little younger than my nephew, my grandmother was only in her 60s...so getting into a sedan like a town car isn't a too stretch.

 

Plus add in that products like crossovers and trucks where not as popular pre-mid 1990s, it boils down to that is what you got and you didn't know any better or different.

 

But also people of her generation gave up driving younger too...both my grandmother and my uncle stopped driving in their early 70s due to medical issues, but my parents and inlaws still drive around with no issues-so far. 

[DeluxeStang 488]

2 hours ago, The Handler said:

Strange. My grandparents' generation had no trouble getting in and out of Town Cars and Delta 88s.

My dad is overweight and his back/spine is messed up from a series of nasty car accidents. He's also having some mobility issues with his right arm where he can't lift it about his shoulder blade really. 

[DeluxeStang 488]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

It depends on how old you are-my grandmother was 75 when she passed away almost 30 years ago. I was 22 years old at the time. 

 

My father is 74 right now and my nephew just turned 17.

 

So when I was a little younger than my nephew, my grandmother was only in her 60s...so getting into a sedan like a town car isn't a too stretch.

 

Plus add in that products like crossovers and trucks where not as popular pre-mid 1990s, it boils down to that is what you got and you didn't know any better or different.

 

But also people of her generation gave up driving younger too...both my grandmother and my uncle stopped driving in their early 70s due to medical issues, but my parents and inlaws still drive around with no issues-so far. 

Yeah, my grandparents are in their late 90s and still drive around Seattle multiple times a week, but they do have a series of SUVs, so that makes getting in and out easier. 

[Tico 45]

I think for older (over 70) people that are still walking, a crossover is easitest to get in and out of.  Most sedans are too low, speicially to get out of. "Real" SUVs are too high. Crossovers are the sweet spot. For people in a wheel chair, my Mustang does seem to be better than my Escape speaking from experience with an elderly family member. So it depends on the person. But overall the crossover seems better for most Seniors. 

 

As for electric "crap" the reason for slowing sales I think is the cost pemium to go electric. Between the much higher vehile cost (compare Escape to Mach E) and the cost of installing charger in the garage its out of reach or just doesn't make finance sense for the average car buyer. Electrics are still premium vehicles for luxury car buyers. Noteable exeption is the Volt. If there were decent electric vehicles around 35K on the market sales would be much higher. This is why Ford is talking about building more hybrids I am assuming. Again maybe a "sweet spot" right now. I am quite happy with my Escape Hybrid. The electric transition is just going to take time. 10 years or more before BEV sales surpass ICE. With new lithum sources and solid state batteries and other new tech on the horizon and volumes slowing increase we will get there. Just might be 2035 by the time BEVs are truely price competitive with ICE. Don't forget the chinese are starting to sell BEVs in Europe and the Austrialia. This will drive prices down also.

 

I don't think bringing back a fusion or tauras sedan in the US would be smart business for Ford. Even Toyota and Honda sell more crossovers than sedans now.

[SoonerLS 1,747]

On 9/14/2023 at 8:29 AM, silvrsvt said:

 

I know my parents had an Edge for a rent and they complained about the A pillar being raked back too far for their likes, so its not a sedan specific thing there either. 

My brother has a Prius (which, he says, he hates until he stops at the gas station), and I had to drive it once. It was like driving an effing coffin. It's actually worse from the driver's seat than from the passenger seat.

 

FWIW, I have yet to find a car that's easier to get into than my truck. 

[SoonerLS 1,747]

22 hours ago, The Handler said:

Strange. My grandparents' generation had no trouble getting in and out of Town Cars and Delta 88s.

Those cars were built quite a bit differently than modern sedans, too. The ride height was taller, the windshields were more upright, and you didn't have the same packaging constraints due to having to meet modern safety standards. Those big bench seats were also easier on ingress/egress than modern buckets.

 

It's interesting to watch older TV shows and watch someone get into a car from the passenger side and slide over to the driver's side. I don't think most folks could even do that in a truck these days.

[jpd80 5,109]

Ford ended selling cars in the hope of transferring most of those buyers to more profitable utilities but that didn’t happen and worse than that, it’s now branding certain utilities as commodities only because every other carmaker flooded utility segments with so many choices that keep prices competitive.

 

Let’s face it, Ford always looks for the next big score and it hoped that Mach E and Lightning was it but fate conspired against that and now early adopters have moved on. Ford may well have a 2 million run rate for EV production in two or three years but how is it going to attract buyers?

The plan seems to be:

1. Build lots of BEVs

2. ???????

3. Profit

Edited September 16 by jpd80

[rperez817 1,792]

13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The plan seems to be:

1. Build lots of BEVs

2. ???????

3. Profit

 

Ford's plan is actually the following.

1. Embrace a totally different paradigm for design, engineering, manufacturing, and marketing of BEV compared to the "old world" of ICE vehicles. This is what prompted Ford to split into Model e, Blue, and Pro business units last year as part of Ford+
2. Build lots of BEVs (just as you mentioned), thereby achieving economies of scale
3. Profit 

Ford success with item 1 will determine how fast it can achieve 2 and 3.

[jpd80 5,109]

6 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford's plan is actually the following.

1. Embrace a totally different paradigm for design, engineering, manufacturing, and marketing of BEV compared to the "old world" of ICE vehicles. This is what prompted Ford to split into Model e, Blue, and Pro business units last year as part of Ford+
2. Build lots of BEVs (just as you mentioned), thereby achieving economies of scale
3. Profit 

Ford success with item 1 will determine how fast it can achieve 2 and 3.

No where in that plan does it say anything about attracting customers - that I see is the biggest issue.

[Rangers09 318]

5 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford's plan is actually the following.

1. Embrace a totally different paradigm for design, engineering, manufacturing, and marketing of BEV compared to the "old world" of ICE vehicles. This is what prompted Ford to split into Model e, Blue, and Pro business units last year as part of Ford+
2. Build lots of BEVs (just as you mentioned), thereby achieving economies of scale
3. Profit 

Ford success with item 1 will determine how fast it can achieve 2 and 3.

 

Only change I'll suggest would be:

 

3. Bankruptcy / Profit

 

Unless consumer demand changes significantly, the former is more likely if they continue with # 2. With the way hybrids and PHEV's are currently outselling BEV's, I expect very low probability of profit in BEV's in the next 5 + yrs, especially once they factor in the existing multi-billion dollar losses and capital costs.