Diesels....really worth it?

[jpd80]

So now that we've heard from all the non-diesel drivers and uninformed speculators......

Good for you but Ford obviously thinks the market wouldn't take to diesels due

to the high cost of compliance to USA Tier 2 Bin 5 NOX emissions regulations

but we're not the ones you have to convince to pay $6,000 to $8,000 premium.

[jcthorne]

It wouldn't surprise me if Ford revisited the "Bobcat" development program at a later date. Think of it as an extension of Ecoboost where a second tank is filled with E85 and used to suppress detonation whilst producing incredible torque and power. The bottom end needs to be diesel so maybe the 2.7/3.0 V6 Lion diesel is a candidate...

 

Does a possible 400 hp / 400 lb ft from 3.0 liters get your blood pumping?

 

 

You don't think the ecoboost gas engine program is already headed there? Do you think the technology has stopped with what the 3.5EB produces now? As flame front management in real time becomes affordable, you will see compression on gas engines go up from where it is now and the performance/efficiency differences between gas and diesel will mostly dissappear other than the higher btu content in diesel. But diesel will never again be cheaper than gasoline either.

 

For the US market, the latest round of diesel emissions standards have pretty much put diesels out to pasture execpt for HD truck applications. Those may in time change too but the diesel is too firmly entrenched. Other than fuel type, the differences and advantages of diesel over gas are going away.

Edited March 2, 2011 by jcthorne

[jpd80]

You don't think the ecoboost gas engine program is already headed there?

At the moment, Ford is not contemplating E85 DI as a detonation suppressant, the cost of two separate fuel systems, PFI and DI as well as needing a stronger diesel like bottom end ruled out Bobcat as being almost expensive as NOX compliant diesel. GEN 2 and 3 Ecoboost will instead rely on increased levels of EGR to act as detonation suppressant.

 

 

 

For the US market, the latest round of diesel emissions standards have pretty much put diesels out to pasture execpt for HD truck applications. Those may in time change too but the diesel is too firmly entrenched. Other than fuel type, the differences and advantages of diesel over gas are going away.

Higher gas and diesel prices change the equation significantly but it would take like $5/gallon...

 

Chevrolet might be introducing a smaller V8 diesel on Silverado next year, I think Ford is waiting to see what buyer response is like, remember that they canned the 4.4 V8 diesel at the last minute and went with EB V6 and 6.2 V8 to cover the high er loaded F150 versions.

Edited March 2, 2011 by jpd80

[goinbroke2]

JC, "But diesel will never again be cheaper than gasoline either." never say never.

 

"It doesn't matter what we say if ford can make a case they will build it"

I also agree with this to a certain point. However, other factors unrelated are also involved. For example, Ford was touting how electric veh are the future etc,etc, could it be that it has an advantage in this area and don't want distractions that are "almost as good" without the higher cost? same was said of the eco-boost, why bring out a diesel that will get better milage and is less complex and has millions of miles of proof when they are trying to push eco-boost which has cost millions to bring to market?

Also, in NA everybody is crazy over particulate matter but co2 isn't that important. As a result, taxes and pricing for diesel is higher than gas to modify the public's perception and buying habits. Ineurope it's the opposite and diesel out numbers gas by a wide margin.

(no I'm not going all Trim on you) LOL

 

As far as cars go, I think you guys are under estimating the milage difference and the effect on the owners. My sister has bought vw diesels since late 80's or early 90's. every 3-4 years she buys the identical car. I know several guys with vw diesels and one mercedes diesel, actually, now that I think about it, I also know of a guy with a toyota pajaro or whatever it is, right hand drive diesel (that has a throttle plate!) and every single one of them gush about milage. Maybe in reality 1000km's to a tank full works out the same as if it was gas because diesel costs more, who knows, but they don't mind. They like the peace of mind and dependability of a diesel? It's certainly not because they have to use smelly diesel pumps which usually have stains from spills and everything stinking of diesel! Most carry a pair of leather gloves to fill up so their hands don't stink after filling.

 

Look, gassers have come a long ways in the last few years and anybody can get 200,000km's out of any make now. 300-350,000km's is not unheard of. But there is so much more to it than that. drive one for a couple months and then you'll understand. Driving a diesel mercedes wagon in germany with a 6 cyl turbo diesel blew me away with the torque and the milage, that was back in the early 90's. If I could find a diesel to stuff into the wifes freestar I would. Highway milage would go up probably, but in town, oh yeah!

[fordmantpw]

...same was said of the eco-boost, why bring out a diesel that will get better milage and is less complex and has millions of miles of proof when they are trying to push eco-boost which has cost millions to bring to market?

 

Explain how a diesel is less complex than EcoBoost? The EcoBoost doesn't have DOC, DPF, Urea, an extra injection of fuel to heat up the DPF to burn off soot, venturi tips on the exhaust...

[Hydro]

Goingbroke- your 7.3L is a whole different animal. My 2008 6.4L barely got 9 mpg in town and 14 on the highway. Towing 7,000lbs i was getting 7.5mpg. The same trailer in my 2003 f150 5.4L netted me 8.8 mpg. Granted the f250 towed safer and easier, the fuel mileage stunk the place up. I'm not alone in that boat either. The 6.7L is now getting good mileage, but I don't think I'll ever go back to diesel. Too much trouble finding station who carry diesel at a REASONABLE price. Luckly i work down by the port and had the cheapest station there. In the city's it can be as much as 30 cents higher. I will be getting the ecoboost f-150 after our lease on the fusion is up. The 6.4L reminded me of boat owners saying... "the happiest day owning my f250 was the day I bought and the day I sold it".

[notquitesane]

I for one would buy a diesel powered Ford car if they ever released one. I owned 2 VW diesel cars in the past and I loved them. I would still own them if VW quality didn't suck. I had no problem finding fuel stations that I could fill my car up with, even going to some truck fueling stations where there aren't any line ups. The cars were pretty zippy considering the low horsepower (75hp for my 95 Golf with a 1.9L IDI TD (canada only) and 90hp for my 99 Golf 1.9L TDI). Fuel efficiency was way better than anything else I have owned. Living in Canada, people worry about fuel gelling and such. I've never had an issue with this as VW recirculated the warm and unused fuel through the fuel filter to prevent gelling. My 99 TDI didn't even come with a block heater. I started it one night when it was -38C... it puked out tons of smoke and ran pretty crappy until it warmed up... but it started. Lord knows if my Fusion would start at -38C not plugged in... I know this is a different beast compared to modern technology, but there are people out there who would buy a diesel powered car, regardless of the costs. Hopefully a company will release a diesel powered car here, it will be successful and Ford will respond with one of their own.

[goinbroke2]

Goingbroke- your 7.3L is a whole different animal. My 2008 6.4L barely got 9 mpg in town and 14 on the highway. Towing 7,000lbs i was getting 7.5mpg. The same trailer in my 2003 f150 5.4L netted me 8.8 mpg. Granted the f250 towed safer and easier, the fuel mileage stunk the place up. I'm not alone in that boat either. The 6.7L is now getting good mileage, but I don't think I'll ever go back to diesel. Too much trouble finding station who carry diesel at a REASONABLE price. Luckly i work down by the port and had the cheapest station there. In the city's it can be as much as 30 cents higher. I will be getting the ecoboost f-150 after our lease on the fusion is up. The 6.4L reminded me of boat owners saying... "the happiest day owning my f250 was the day I bought and the day I sold it".

 

Oh I realise the newer ones were worse on milage. A buddy has a 2008 or 9 don't remember, was getting 15mpg and had issues with clouds of smoke/stumbling when excellerating in the rain. He got a bullydog or an equal and removed the pollution crap, and replaced the intercooler with a newer model (tsb on it) and he's getting 21mpg and hauls like stink now. Last I heard he's still happy with it and loves towing his 5th wheel trailer.

 

"The 6.4L reminded me of boat owners saying... "the happiest day owning my f250 was the day I bought and the day I sold it"."

OUCH! LOL!

[p38fln]

Consider this - the Ecoboost V-6 putting out more torque per liter of displacement than some heavy truck engines -

 

Example:

2007 Detroit Diesel Series 60 (13 liter)

* 430 HP

* 1,500 lb-ft torque

* 13 liter single-turbo I-6 (Boosting @40 PSI)

 

2011 Ford Ecoboost (3.5 liter)

* 365 HP

* 420 lb-ft torque

* 3.5 liter twin-turbo V-6

 

If increasing the engine displacement increased torque in a linear way, Ford could make a 13 liter version of the Ecoboost that could put out 1,560 lb-ft of torque and drop it into a new Ford "L" series truck. If it got better than 6 MPG loaded, they'd take over the industry.

 

yes, I know this is overly simplistic, and that a lot more goes into torque besides engine size - I'm just pointing out that the Ecoboost engine is VERY similar to a diesel engine

[bzcat]

I see the drumbeat of how Ford and other should offer diesel engines in their cars etc...so I did some research on the VW Golf, which comes with both engines.

 

Anyways heres what I found:

 

Golf Diesel:

30/42 MPG

Annual fuel cost (via EPA's website, figured at 20K miles a year and $3.75 a gallon for Diesel) $2076

Price (via KBB.com, MSRP, no options figured in) $25,151

 

Golf Auto with Gas

24/31 MPG

Annual fuel cost (via EPA's website, figured at 20K miles a year and $3.25 a gallon for Benzine, err Gas) $2407

Price (via KBB.com, MSRP no options figured in) $19,468

 

So for nearly $5700 more up front, you get to pay $393 bucks less a YEAR for fuel...so its going to take you nearly 15 years of driving that car to "break even" on fuel costs alone...driving 20K miles a year.

 

Given that Diesel is $.50 or so a gallon more then 87 octane Regular, I don't forsee Diesel engines winning over people...

 

There is a couple of problem with your comparison. You clearly cheery picked the numbers to bolster your case, which is ok, we all do it sometimes :D

 

First, the MSRP you are using is for 4 door Golf. The 4 door Golf with gas engine is only available with conventional 6 speed automatic, while the TDI 4 door is available in standard 6 speed manual or optional 6 speed DSG. So right off the bat, you have a problem with very different standard transmission if you going the "no options" route.

 

Second, the TDI only comes 1 way: loaded. Per Edmunds.com:

 

The TDI trim adds 17-inch alloy wheels; foglights; a sport suspension; a leather-wrapped steering wheel with multifunction controls; floor mats; a leather-wrapped shift knob and brake lever; split-folding rear seats with a center armrest and pass-through; Bluetooth; and an upgraded sound system with touchscreen controls, an in-dash CD changer, satellite radio and an iPod interface.

 

So now you are really comparing apples to oranges.

 

Third, the current generation of TDI available in the US is the "performance" 2.0 liter variant. Not the super fuel miser 1.9 liter version from years ago. The real world performance of the Golf TDI is significantly more robust than VW's lackluster gasoline 2.5 I5. So they are not comparable in terms of performance... The price premium you pay for Golf TDI over the 2.5 gas version buys not just all the extra standard equipment but also better performance. Would you run the numbers like this to question the payback on 5.0 Mustang vs. the V6 Mustang? I didn't think so...

 

Fourth, the resale value for TDI is significantly higher than the gas version. But there is a lot of variables (condition, length of ownership, mileage etc) so I will give you a pass for leaving it out in your analysis.

 

And lastly, I will just say that there are other externalizations that people have in choosing one car over another. It's way too simplistic to boil this down to a "financial pay back" analysis. Most TDI owners I know brought their car because it has lower emission (CO2) than gasoline cars. It would be just as unwise to dismiss the environmental factor as someone else being dismissive of your strictly financial based opinion.

 

~~~~~~~~~~

 

If you want to get close to an apples vs. apples comparison, you should use Golf 2 door vs. Golf TDI 2 door. Both are available with manual transmission (although TDI has 6 speed vs. 5 speed for gasoline), but you still have the problem of TDI being fully loaded. But I digress... Here is what the math would work out:

 

2011 Golf 2.5 2 door, 5 speed manual $18,765 (no options, including destination), 23/30/25 MPG

2011 Golf TDI 2 door, 6 speed manual $23,995 (no options, including destination), 30/41/34 MPG

 

MSRP difference: $5,230, but the TDI is eligible for $650 Federal tax credit (was $1,300 at one point) so that brings the difference down to $4,580

 

Using your 20k miles per year benchmark and the combined MPG, the gas version will use 800 gallon of the light stuff. And the TDI will use 588 gallon of the sticky stuff.

 

The saving is 212 gallon per year or about $800 a year is you assume gas will be $3.80 a gallon.

 

$4,580 / $800 ~ 5.7 years payback period. But during this whole time, you would have enjoyed the benefits of 17-inch alloy wheels; foglights; a sport suspension; a leather-wrapped steering wheel with multifunction controls; floor mats; a leather-wrapped shift knob and brake lever; split-folding rear seats with a center armrest and pass-through; Bluetooth; and an upgraded sound system with touchscreen controls, an in-dash CD changer, satellite radio and an iPod interface.

 

Maintenance is kind of a wash as VW has free maintenance during the warranty period. And the 2.0 TDI does not require urea.

Edited March 2, 2011 by bzcat

[jpd80]

same was said of the eco-boost, why bring out a diesel that will get better milage and is less complex and has millions of miles of proof when they are trying to push eco-boost which has cost millions to bring to market?

Also, in NA everybody is crazy over particulate matter but co2 isn't that important. As a result, taxes and pricing for diesel is higher than gas to modify the public's perception and buying habits. Ineurope it's the opposite and diesel out numbers gas by a wide margin.

(no I'm not going all Trim on you) LOL

I understand what you're saying about great fuel consumption with diesels in cars and how Europe skews the fuel prices to encourage diesel use while the US does the opposite and encourages gas.

 

Short answer is that US Tier 2 Bin 5 NOX regulations - Ford is not prepared to introduce diesels and develop the urea systems before Ford Europe has had time to evolve them in their own market. So that's why they went the easier less costly Ecoboost route.

Edited March 2, 2011 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

There is a couple of problem with your comparison. You clearly cheery picked the numbers to bolster your case, which is ok, we all do it sometimes :D

 

 

You might have missed it before....I did a price comparison on Truedelta.com yesterday and the price difference (with same options) is nearly $2900

 

As for fuel useage...I got my numbers from Fuel Economy.gov doing a comparison of the two, not the same way your figuring your numbers

 

I did looking into the resale value of the car, and found out that the Diesel is worth about $3200 bucks more then a Gas Golf...but at the same time how many people figure this into the equation...I dont think people go in and say oh boy I can get $3200 more bucks for this car if I sell it when they have to spend more upfront for it.

[bzcat]

You might have missed it before....I did a price comparison on Truedelta.com yesterday and the price difference (with same options) is nearly $2900

 

As for fuel useage...I got my numbers from Fuel Economy.gov doing a comparison of the two, not the same way your figuring your numbers

 

I did looking into the resale value of the car, and found out that the Diesel is worth about $3200 bucks more then a Gas Golf...but at the same time how many people figure this into the equation...I dont think people go in and say oh boy I can get $3200 more bucks for this car if I sell it when they have to spend more upfront for it.

 

So with same options, you pay $3000 more, but you also get $3000 more when you sell it. Let me crunch the number on that... :sandbox:

 

But even if you ignore resale, $3000 is not an unreasonable amount for an upgraded engine. How much would you pay for say... Fusion I4 vs. V6? Maybe not $3000 but you get my point... if you stop obsessing about MPG and payback and just focus on the performance aspect, it may be worth it just by itself.

[silvrsvt]

 

But even if you ignore resale, $3000 is not an unreasonable amount for an upgraded engine. How much would you pay for say... Fusion I4 vs. V6?

 

The difference is under $1200

 

As for a performance upgrade...why would you buy a Diesel over the GTI model if you wanted performance?

 

Plus the Gas engine is slightly quicker then the Diesel motor in 0-60...

[chucky2]

This example was just used the other day on another forum...

 

Basically, when comparing the 2011 Jetta TDI to other 2011 Jetta's, it's the SEL version of the 2011 Jetta you should be comparing to. The standard options are for the most part the same, however there is some give and take. The base SEL comes with a 5 spd manual standard, the TDI a 6 spd manual standard. The TDI has a standard moonroof, optional on the SEL. SEL has 17" alloys, TDI has 16" alloys. SEL has standard foglights, optional on thee TDI. Some stereo difference as well. But, all considered, the SEL and TDI are comparable-wise in features.

 

Base SEL MSRP: $21.395

 

Base TDI MSRP: $22,995

 

Re-run with those numbers and then see what it breaks down to...

 

Chuck

Edited March 2, 2011 by chucky2

[Deanh]

This example was just used the other day on another forum...

 

Basically, when comparing the 2011 Jetta TDI to other 2011 Jetta's, it's the SEL version of the 2011 Jetta you should be comparing to. The standard options are for the most part the same, however there is some give and take. The base SEL comes with a 5 spd manual standard, the TDI a 6 spd manual standard. The TDI has a standard moonroof, optional on the SEL. SEL has 17" alloys, TDI has 16" alloys. SEL has standard foglights, optional on thee TDI. Some stereo difference as well. But, all considered, the SEL and TDI are comparable-wise in features.

 

Base SEL MSRP: $21.395

 

Base TDI MSRP: $22,995

 

Re-run with those numbers and then see what it breaks down to...

 

Chuck

are they all available with the burnt out Tail-light option?

[chucky2]

Of course! It is a VW after all...and, if you wait, you'll very likely get to "enjoy" more serious issues...

[ANTAUS]

Funny you mention that, i think Car and Driver had a test drive of a Tiguan, or Toureg, eh one of those and they made mentioned of some 'reliability issue" they had with the vehicle, par for the course.

[Bob Rosadini]

Interesting point that was brought up I believe on the medium duty thread-for what it's worth. Ford will be offering the V-10 in the 650 next year. Apparently a lot of fleet users with a high percentage of idle/low RPM hours (utility/tree service bucket trucks) are having issues associated with diesels running through the regeneration cycle. High idle hours was a former justification for diesel vs. gas. The tables have turned.

 

Keep in mind, right now with GM out of class 6 and 7, there is no builder that offers a gas job.

[kpc655]

I see the drumbeat of how Ford and other should offer diesel engines in their cars etc...so I did some research on the VW Golf, which comes with both engines.

 

Anyways heres what I found:

 

Golf Diesel:

30/42 MPG

Annual fuel cost (via EPA's website, figured at 20K miles a year and $3.75 a gallon for Diesel) $2076

Price (via KBB.com, MSRP, no options figured in) $25,151

 

Golf Auto with Gas

24/31 MPG

Annual fuel cost (via EPA's website, figured at 20K miles a year and $3.25 a gallon for Benzine, err Gas) $2407

Price (via KBB.com, MSRP no options figured in) $19,468

 

So for nearly $5700 more up front, you get to pay $393 bucks less a YEAR for fuel...so its going to take you nearly 15 years of driving that car to "break even" on fuel costs alone...driving 20K miles a year.

 

Given that Diesel is $.50 or so a gallon more then 87 octane Regular, I don't forsee Diesel engines winning over people...

 

The driveability is quite different (better in my opinion)

[GTwannabe]

I don't get the diesel CAR thing being that great...however with a large payload...sometimes a diesel truck is the only way to go.

 

V6 torque with tiny 4 cylinder fuel economy. Also, you can get many more miles out a sedan's 15 gallon tank of fuel between fill-ups. The VW 2.0 turbodiesels can get close to 50mpg without much effort. Unfortunately, the cars they are put in are colossal pieces of garbage.

[Deanh]

V6 torque with tiny 4 cylinder fuel economy. Also, you can get many more miles out a sedan's 15 gallon tank of fuel between fill-ups. The VW 2.0 turbodiesels can get close to 50mpg without much effort. Unfortunately, the cars they are put in are colossal pieces of garbage.

the engines themselves arent completely innocent....AND very expensive to repair when out of warranty.....and that happens on a regular basis.....turbo anyone?

[chucky2]

The driveability is quite different (better in my opinion)

 

The MSRP's used in the comparison post you quoted are incorrect, thereby greatly skewing the numbers. It's more like $1600 difference between a comparable diesel and gas Jetta.

 

And, as you point out, the average person would enjoy driving the diesel far more than the gasser, which, is really the point of the diesel: better usuable everyday performance, superior gas mileage, not much added initial cost (in the economy sizes, haven't went and compared a diesel 3 series against its gas counterpart). With a gasser, you give up either the performance to get the economy, or the economy to get the performance.

 

The only tradeoff for T2B5 diesels is NOx and particulate, and the point that should be kicked into the crotch of every person in the CARB and EPA organization is: It's already clean enough, go focus your efforts on offroad, rail, airline, and watercraft. The only reason at this point to keep driving up the air quality rules for on-highway combustion engines is to artificially drive us to electric options prematurely, and to maintain feifdom of the respective Org. They ought to declare victory, and move onto something much more worthwhile.

 

JMHO's....

 

Chuck

[chucky2]

the engines themselves arent completely innocent....AND very expensive to repair when out of warranty.....and that happens on a regular basis.....turbo anyone?

 

The HPFP issue is finally getting attention, but I didn't know they had diesel turbo issues with the VW TDI's as well...what's that all about?

[RichardJensen]

move onto something much more worthwhile

You forgot about restaurants.