dwford Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I would say that the sales chart validates Ford's approach with the new Explorer: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/08/chart-of-the-day-midlarge-cuv-sales-in-july-and-year-to-date/#more-407482 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I would say that the sales chart validates Ford's approach with the new Explorer: http://www.thetrutha...te/#more-407482 I think the thing that is a bit more surprising is how well the Sorento is selling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I agree, but that just goes to show that Americans have turned more into the Walmart crowd where quality isn't important, rather, just the cheapest price they can find, at any cost. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I agree, but that just goes to show that Americans have turned more into the Walmart crowd where quality isn't important, rather, just the cheapest price they can find, at any cost. I dunno about that, then why would the Explorer and Edge be second and third on the list, when they can get pretty pricey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Face it, NOBODY has been "focused" on the offroading customer except the aftermarket for the better part of 2 decades now. Even Jeep's models all have compromises geared toward satisfying their "on-road" customers. Perhaps less so than other automakers, but even Jeep realizes a lot of their customers are only buying their vehicles for image, not off-road capability, so they still want something with good on-road manners and creature comforts. Even the Wrangler isn't what it used to be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meyeste Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Meh... the Explorer has always been a soccer mom-mobile. Ford just acknowledged it by switching to a FWD unibody platform. You do realize that the VTM-4 "4WD" (AWD) system on the Pilot/Ridgeline is basically the same as the 2011 Explorer, right? FWD with the ability to send 70% of torque to the rear wheels via electromagnetic clutch packs in the rear differential. If it were the same then why did the Explorer's version cop-out and leave the car stranded? If you mean basic in that both are multi-plate clutch packs in the way that a Volkswagen beetle and a Lamborghini are both cars then yes they are the basically same. However as always at really matters are the details; The Explorer's front and rear differentials are both open, with the brakes used to mimic locking differentials. This fact alone is going to cause excess heat and wear of the center clutch pak, and I suspect this is why the Pilot's clutch pak doesn't fail while the Explorer's does; the Pilot's uses electronically locking rear differentials, and I am fairly certain the front axle is locking as well based on my experience with them. Also since I've been called out here I read up on the use of multi-plate clutches as a center differential, from what I have read they can be made so that overheating is simply not an issue, that doesn't mean they always are. I'm a Ford fan, I have a 99 F150 4x4 Lariat and just this weekend took it into some difficult rocky, steep terrain in which it's 4x4 system with locking differentials made a non issue. I expect to buy an SUV in the next 12 - 18 months, I would not buy a "4x4" without a rear locking differential, perhaps I'll keep waiting on the Expedition to get the new engine line, perhaps I won't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 This fact alone is going to cause excess heat and wear of the center clutch pak, and I suspect this is why the Pilot's clutch pak doesn't fail while the Explorer's does; the Pilot's uses electronically locking rear differentials, and I am fairly certain the front axle is locking as well based on my experience with them. Also since I've been called out here I read up on the use of multi-plate clutches as a center differential, from what I have read they can be made so that overheating is simply not an issue, that doesn't mean they always are. There is no center differential or center clutch pack on the Explorer. The clutch is part of the rear differential. And the PTU is externally cooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 If it were the same then why did the Explorer's version cop-out and leave the car stranded? Who knows? It's not like they performed a replicable failure analysis test, or even ran the vehicle through the same route, with the same climbs, descents, etc. There's so little meaningful info in that summary that you can't draw any independent conclusion. And what do you know about the value of locking vs. open differentials as opposed to independent brake operation overheating a clutchpack AWD system when you don't even know what Ford vehicles are equipped with clutchpack AWD (hint: dang near all of them)? Sorry, but don't expect me to jump on your bandwagon when all you've got is a crappy comparison test and woefully inadequate awareness of Ford's AWD systems (like "Oh it's so awful that Ford went with a clutchpack AWD system in the new Explorer!!!" which displays an incredible ignorance about the mechanisms used in Intelligent AWD & ControlTrac) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Also since I've been called out here I read up on the use of multi-plate clutches as a center differential, Keep reading, dude, keep reading. Eventually you will comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I think the 7k rating is for the V8. V6 ~5k. Dodge Canada website states 6,200 lbs max. towing for the 3.6L V6 Durango and 7,200 lbs max towing for the 5.7L V8 Durango. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Short Answer: If it does not have a locking differential and a low range gear, it is a SUV styled Mini Van that men will drive and NOTHING else..... Women do not care either way..... Yes, that includes my AWD Edge.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meyeste Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Furthermore, sand is sand. It's not mud, it's not snow, it's not ice. It's sand. Judging an AWD system based on its inability to barrel through a dune at top speed is similar to condemning a lawn mower because it's incapable of winning an drag race against a Corvette. Sometimes you need to ask yourself "why am I making excuses?". Sand is a special case sure, but the Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai were driven the same exact way and didn't over-heat. I know I was promised the new Explorer would be as capable as the old. well it seems this vehicle is not even close. Sadly borg-warner pioneered the infinitely variable center differential using the 1995 Explorer as a test mule. They identified why it was the system overheated and designed them not to have that issue ever, in any situation (which is why some did and some didn't fail). The fact that it over heats is a design characteristic, it wasn't made to handle the heat generated in poor traction situations. For me this design characteristic is a problem I own land in hill country and if I were to be in the new Explorer and get caught in a sudden down pour likely I'd be stranded, well I am not going to knowingly put myself or my family in that situation; verdict I won't even consider buying this new Explorer. Perhaps if the Expedition gets the new engines however that new Wrangler unlimited looks workable though, and it is going to get around 23 mpgs, it seems a fair compromise. Edited August 29, 2011 by meyeste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Why even consider an '11/'12 Explorer for off-roading/mudding? Because some trucks in the past that were called Explorers were good at it? Serious question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meyeste Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Who knows? It's not like they performed a replicable failure analysis test, or even ran the vehicle through the same route, with the same climbs, descents, etc. There's so little meaningful info in that summary that you can't draw any independent conclusion. And what do you know about the value of locking vs. open differentials as opposed to independent brake operation overheating a clutchpack AWD system when you don't even know what Ford vehicles are equipped with clutchpack AWD (hint: dang near all of them)? Sorry, but don't expect me to jump on your bandwagon when all you've got is a crappy comparison test and woefully inadequate awareness of Ford's AWD systems (like "Oh it's so awful that Ford went with a clutchpack AWD system in the new Explorer!!!" which displays an incredible ignorance about the mechanisms used in Intelligent AWD & ControlTrac) I'm a Ford fan and a proud Ford owner, I didn't get that way making excuses, the Ford's I have owned and those I have rented I have always been ecstatic with my '99 F150 has been so dependable that it's not a question that I'll replace it with another. However when my 89 Sable need to be replaced I looked at the 99 Fords and couldn't find anything I liked I bought and Oldsmobile intrigue and were Oldsmobile still around I'd buy other I love that car. Now that car is ready for replacement, we have 2 kids now so I'm thinking maybe a SUV. However I will make an objective decision when buying it's replacement and objectively I could not buy the new Explorer; what I end up with I'll get because objectively it's the best choice, being a Ford is not requisite. I am posting here because I'd like to see Ford make an Explorer that is the best objective buy. It isn't like I am the only person giving it bad reviews consider MT which make no bones about stating the Mustang is head and shoulders better than anything in it's class, couldn't possibly give the F-150 truck more accolades doesn't have anything good to say about the new Explorer. Edited August 29, 2011 by meyeste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Why even consider an '11/'12 Explorer for off-roading/mudding? Because some trucks in the past that were called Explorers were good at it? Serious question. You wouldn't, which is why this review is a bunch of crap! Light off-roading, making it through some light mud on the way to the cabin? Sure! Snow? Yep! A little fun in the sand now and then? Why not? Rock crawling, mud bogging, or serious sand-dune running? Only an idiot would do that with the Explorer...it's not intended for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 However I will make an objective decision when buying it's replacement and objectively I could not buy the new Explorer; what I end up with I'll get because objectively it's the best choice, being a Ford is not requisite. I am posting here because I'd like to see Ford make an Explorer that is the best objective buy. What is wrong with it - objectively? Can't run endlessly through sand dunes? Is that one of your requirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meyeste Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 Why even consider an '11/'12 Explorer for off-roading/mudding? Because some trucks in the past that were called Explorers were good at it? Serious question. Ford claimed the new Explorer would be "as capable" as the old one, well I've never heard of the Control-trac system overheating in the Expedition or the Explorer. In fact I've heard people say the Control-Trac system was very, very good - unstoppable, bullet proof, this is what we expect from Ford, let's insist we get it and not make excuses or accept them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Ford claimed the new Explorer would be "as capable" as the old one, I don't recall Ford making that specific claim in anything I've read about the new Explorer. Got a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Sand is a special case sure, but the Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai were driven the same exact way and didn't over-heat. How do you know this? How do you know that 'driven in the same location' means 'driven the same way'? Sadly borg-warner pioneered the infinitely variable center differential using the 1995 Explorer as a test mule. They identified why it was the system overheated and designed them not to have that issue ever There's no 'center differential' in either ControlTrac or Intelligent AWD boxes. There is an electronically controlled clutchpack. I am posting here because I'd like to see Ford make an Explorer that is the best objective buy. If it's the best for *you* it's the best *objective* buy? Really? Do you know what the word 'objective' means? Here's a tip: If you consider the Wrangler Unlimited to be functionally equivalent to an Explorer your tastes are *far* from what could be even charitably described as "objective" (again, look up the word and get back to me.) I've never heard of the Control-trac system overheating in the Expedition or the Explorer. This Explorer uses the same basic AWD box as the previous Explorer: It's an electronically controlled clutchpack. You give me ANY Explorer. ANY Explorer whatsoever and I guaran-damn-tee you I will overheat it in a sand dune. I will bury it up to the axles and then stand on the gas until I turn the transmission fluid into roofing tar. There is no way Ford could possibly prevent me from *destroying* an Explorer of *any* stripe if I drive it like a moron. Heck, look at those tools who took the speed governors off their Raptors and then bellyached to Ford because they bent the frames. You talk about not accepting excuses. Well guess what? I hate sloppy arguments and slipshod logic. OMG!!! PM overheated an Explorer. Therefore it is teh garbage and nobody should ever buy it unless they always keep it on pavement, which means it's just a minivan. Edited August 29, 2011 by RichardJensen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) I just happened upon this thread and I really had a good laugh when I started reading the OP's initial post. The Explorer has been nothing but a glorified station wagon for well over a decade. Are you just now finding that out? It has never been a serious off road vehicle. It's just the modern day station wagon for the generation of buyers who didn't want to admit that they were buying a station wagon like their parents drove. Such is the case with most of today's SUV's who have little to no off road prowess. They're just tall station wagons. This is like complaining about the fact that peanut butter tastes like peanut butter. Edited August 30, 2011 by BlackHorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I just happened upon this thread and I really had a good laugh when I started reading the OP's initial post. The Explorer has been nothing but a glorified station wagon for well over a decade. Are you just now finding that out? It has never been a serious off road vehicle. It's just the modern day station wagon for the generation of buyers who didn't want to admit that they were buying a station wagon like their parents drove. Such is the case with most of today's SUV's who have little to no off road prowess. They're just tall station wagons. This is like complaining about the fact that peanut butter tastes like peanut butter. To take it to the next step: If you want a full-size interior space with lots of cargo space and off-road capabilities...sounds like a truck to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Why even consider an '11/'12 Explorer for off-roading/mudding? Because some trucks in the past that were called Explorers were good at it? Serious question. Because the Ford put "MUD" and "SAND" functions on their terrain management control with descriptions like "To help you handle everything from rugged off-roading to snow-covered roadways, there’s the available Intelligent 4WD System and available Terrain Management System™. " That's Ford Marketing's words... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Because the Ford put "MUD" and "SAND" functions on their terrain management control with descriptions like "To help you handle everything from rugged off-roading to snow-covered roadways, there's the available Intelligent 4WD System and available Terrain Management System™. " That's Ford Marketing's words... All depends on how you define rugged off roading....hell idiots where breaking Raptors because they pushed them too much. The VAST majority of Explorer owners won't go off road and all the mud they will see is driving down a wet unpaved area to get to the Whole Foods Market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) The suspension on the Explorer is not designed for serious off road duty. Long ago it became a soft sprung suspension designed to feel like a car so that all the soccer moms who drive these things would feel more comfortable. Anyone who buys an Explorer for its off road ability apparently doesn't know how to select an off road vehicle and anyone who buys these things because they don't want to buy a station wagon like mom and dad did are just living in denial. lol PS, does anyone know what tire they put on the new 4 WD Explorer because I'm betting it's some wannabe AT tire that might be ok for some minor off road stuff but really is designed to keep the road noise down when driving on the pavement. And that tells you all you need to know about the off road ability of an Explorer. Additionally, the approach and departure angle of the Explorer is 21 degrees. Now by comparison to a vehicle that is truly designed for off road use, the Jeep Wrangler Unlimited has an approach angle of 44 degrees and a departure angle of 40 degrees. Now obviously the Explorer is not a Wrangler. Actually I think that just about says it all with respect to the Explorers off road ability. It's just not designed for serious off road ability. I hope we cleared that up. Edited August 31, 2011 by BlackHorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) The bulk of the SUV market doesn't care about off road capability, Ford are now better placed to capture much more of the market with a platform that covers Taurus, Explorer, Flex, MKS, MKT and the new police interceptor and Ute...The scales of economy that flow from using a common platform with that product range is bound to make Ford lots of money, they could care less about Jeep... Edited August 31, 2011 by jpd80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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