J Mays: Lincoln "not true luxury brand"

[RichardJensen]

Granted. But people were saying it was going to be the exact same vehicle, just lifted. We knew better though.

 

FTFY. (Hmm... Alpha and Omega. Now I get it.)

 

But I'm not saying that the "7-Series Fighter" Cadillac is going to look like the Caprice. I'm saying it's fairly clear that it will be related to it.

Edited August 31, 2013 by RichardJensen

[papilgee4evaeva]

But I'm not saying that the "7-Series Fighter" Cadillac is going to look like the Caprice. I'm saying it's fairly clear that it will be related to it.

 

Reports are that, underneath, the car will have more commonality with the ATS/CTS than the Caprice/SS. Just scaled up.

 

Sorta like how the next Taurus and MKS will have more commonality with the Fusion/MKZ than the current D3s.

[fordtech1]

FWIW, when I was in dearborn, I saw a vehicle on the test track that was a camouflaged small SUV. MKC comes to mind... Also there was some competitive make comparisons going on. One was an Italian horse running the track.

[RichardJensen]

Reports are that, underneath, the car will have more commonality with the ATS/CTS than the Caprice/SS. Just scaled up.

 

I doubt that. I can't imagine that GM would be that dumb----you can't take a platform that supports cars smaller than the largest Zeta sedan, and scale it up to something larger than the largest Zeta sedan without major compromises. Either it ends up having so much stuff unique to itself that they might as well have started from scratch, or you end up with so many components that are not up to the task of handling a larger vehicle (suspension & subframes especially) that you have a substandard large car.

[RichardJensen]

One was an Italian horse running the track.

 

There are these persistent rumors of a successor to the GT......................

[papilgee4evaeva]

I doubt that. I can't imagine that GM would be that dumb----you can't take a platform that supports cars smaller than the largest Zeta sedan, and scale it up to something larger than the largest Zeta sedan without major compromises. Either it ends up having so much stuff unique to itself that they might as well have started from scratch, or you end up with so many components that are not up to the task of handling a larger vehicle (suspension & subframes especially) that you have a substandard large car.

 

Well, I'm not saying they're stretching Alpha beyond its limits; the CTS will likely be the largest sedan built off that platform. What I've read is that they're engineering Omega such that they could build it on the same lines as Alpha, making appropriate modifications (esp. the rear suspension) as necessary while at the same time reducing engineering costs. Alpha itself is pretty flexible from what I understand, and they're looking to apply the same principles to Omega.

 

But all that aside, my biggest qualm with the platform and the decisions behind it? As of now it's bespoke to Cadillac much like Sigma I and II were. I hear they're going to put the big sedan as well as another big CUV on it, but will that be enough volume to pay for the platform?

[RichardJensen]

Yeah, the question of amortization is important. Another question: Is this vehicle the wisest use of GM's funds? Their margins are worse than Ford's, their products are not as competitive, and it's quite likely that Ford will surpass GM in NA production this year, if they have not already done so.

[jpd80]

Yeah, the question of amortization is important. Another question: Is this vehicle the wisest use of GM's funds? Their margins are worse than Ford's, their products are not as competitive, and it's quite likely that Ford will surpass GM in NA production this year, if they have not already done so.

Exactly,

so why does GM continue to focus on high series niche products instead of improving

the quality and offerings of its volume products?

 

It seems like GM barely recovers from the preceding lack luster response to RWD vehicles

before rushing back to the drawing board and clean sheet designs...

 

Perhaps if GM had a more unified approach to the task at hand, RWD would be more

than just alphabet soup and a mish mash of promised to do better.

Edited September 1, 2013 by jpd80

[papilgee4evaeva]

Yeah, the question of amortization is important. Another question: Is this vehicle the wisest use of GM's funds? Their margins are worse than Ford's, their products are not as competitive, and it's quite likely that Ford will surpass GM in NA production this year, if they have not already done so.

 

The pervasive, proverbial elephant in the room...

[Edstock]

The pervasive, proverbial elephant in the room...

 

Cadillac is racing, too, if that helps?

 

From Auto Extremist:

 

Andy Pilgrim, (No. 8 Cadillac Racing Cadillac CTS-V Coupe) won the GT Class of the Pirelli World Challenge Cadillac Grand Prix of Sonoma, California, on Sunday. Cadillac clinched the 2013 manufacturer’s championship during qualifying.

 

[EBFlex]

Cadillac is racing, too, if that helps?

 

From Auto Extremist:

 

Andy Pilgrim, (No. 8 Cadillac Racing Cadillac CTS-V Coupe) won the GT Class of the Pirelli World Challenge Cadillac Grand Prix of Sonoma, California, on Sunday. Cadillac clinched the 2013 manufacturer’s championship during qualifying.

 

 

Awesome, good for Cadillac. That CTS-V is one astounding machine.

[ANTAUS]

Ok so it's not a real luxury brand, and the whole time I'm thinking "Hmm why are you charging luxury brand prices"...I mean, load up a MKZ and your like "WTF", I mean even the last LS I bought had a $52K price on the window and it was NOT a $50K vehicle by any means. I got it much much less than that where I can say I stole it, so $51K for an MKZ hmm pushing it. IF we learned from Genesis and Lexus (when it first debuted), a good price out there door is a good step. But new MKZ isnt really making huge sales gains than the previous one, although I'm sure the ATP is much higher. Just saying...

[RichardJensen]

the last LS I bought had a $52K price on the window and it was NOT a $50K vehicle by any means.

 

That was what? Ten years ago? Inflation-adjusted that LS carried a $67k price tag.

Edited September 4, 2013 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

Ok so it's not a real luxury brand, and the whole time I'm thinking "Hmm why are you charging luxury brand prices"...I mean, load up a MKZ and your like "WTF", I mean even the last LS I bought had a $52K price on the window and it was NOT a $50K vehicle by any means. I got it much much less than that where I can say I stole it, so $51K for an MKZ hmm pushing it. IF we learned from Genesis and Lexus (when it first debuted), a good price out there door is a good step. But new MKZ isnt really making huge sales gains than the previous one, although I'm sure the ATP is much higher. Just saying...

Here's the interesting thing, Ford has been surprised and delighted with the number of MKZ buyers

purchasing Reserve series trim option in NA and hybrid, so while MKZ may start at $35,000,

a lot of buyers are in the 442,000-$50,000 zone.....and that's what gets under the skin of critics.

[Anthony]

Here's the interesting thing, Ford has been surprised and delighted with the number of MKZ buyers

purchasing Reserve series trim option in NA and hybrid, so while MKZ may start at $35,000,

a lot of buyers are in the 442,000-$50,000 zone.....and that's what gets under the skin of critics.

 

 

Isn't hybrid a no-cost option?

[akirby]

Isn't hybrid a no-cost option?

 

Yes but he said Reserve trim which bumps up the price of both the hybrid and NA version.

[aneekr]

But new MKZ isnt really making huge sales gains than the previous one

 

Just like its predecessor, the current MKZ is nothing more than a restyled and overpriced Ford Fusion. When one does the same thing over and over, is it reasonable to expect different results?

[jpd80]

The big shift has been in transaction price with the product mix seeing around $5,000 higher than the previous model

So maybe Ford has a winner but the product mix means that sales appear no better than the previous model.

 

Lincoln knows that it needs to do better, it goes to the expense of reskinning and retrimming Fords

yet the past differentiation efforts haven't been as much as they could have been.

So I'm hoping Max Wolff and his team can transition Lincoln to a new level.

[grbeck]

Just like its predecessor, the current MKZ is nothing more than a restyled and overpriced Ford Fusion. When one does the same thing over and over, is it reasonable to expect different results?

I'm anxious to see the new MKC. Of course, crossovers of this size are hot, so even a so-so Lincoln entry could be carried along by the segment's momentum.

 

The acid test, however, will be the new MKS.

Edited September 4, 2013 by grbeck

[phil1336]

I realize that different geographic regions of the Nation and their unique Demographics has huge impact on what Model Vehicle`s are popular and sell and other don`t seem to attract much interest. Not just with Lincoln, Ford has similar issue with Sales of its Flex and Edge too. Here in South Florida, Lincoln seems to be not only holding its own against Cadillac but you see many more New Lincoln`s on the roads compared to late Model Cadillac`s. Might be the large concentration of Jewish buyers that were steadfast and loyal for many years to the Mercury Marquis until they later switched over in droves to the Toyota Camry and later to the Hyundai Sonata. The bottom line is annual Vehicle sales totals matter but often regional differences sometimes keeps a Brand alive. Look at Subaru Car sales in The State of Vermont. Just Vermont alone has made that brand viable along with the Pacific NorthWest in America.

[akirby]

Lincoln MKZ August sales - 3652 (shared platform) $750 cash incentives, $44K net MSRP $566/month 39 months lease including down payment (amortized over 39 months)

Caddy ATS August sales - 3380 (bespoke platform) $3K cash incentives $46K net MSRP $591/month 39 month lease including down payment (amortized over 39 months)

 

So the MKZ has $2250 more profit based on lower incentives with higher sales volume and a huge platform cost advantage.

 

Remind me again why the ATS is so much better?

Edited September 4, 2013 by akirby

[silvrsvt]

Just like its predecessor, the current MKZ is nothing more than a restyled and overpriced Ford Fusion. When one does the same thing over and over, is it reasonable to expect different results?

 

Lincoln MKZ sales were up 10 percent to 3,652 vehicles, for a best-ever August sales month.

MKZ has now reported record sales for four of the last five months.

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/2013/09/04/August13sales.pdf

Um ok.....

[aneekr]

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/2013/09/04/August13sales.pdf

Um ok.....

 

This link shows that YTD, Ford managed to sell all of two additional MKZs in 2013 compared to the same period in 2012 (20,901 in 2013 vs. 20,899 in 2012).

Edited September 4, 2013 by aneekr

[akirby]

That link shows that YTD, Ford managed to sell all of two additional MKZs in 2013 compared to the same period in 2012 (20,901 in 2013 vs. 20,899 in 2012).

 

They were production constrained the first 2-3 months of the year.

[V8-X]

I realize that different geographic regions of the Nation and their unique Demographics has huge impact on what Model Vehicle`s are popular and sell and other don`t seem to attract much interest. Not just with Lincoln, Ford has similar issue with Sales of its Flex and Edge too. Here in South Florida, Lincoln seems to be not only holding its own against Cadillac but you see many more New Lincoln`s on the roads compared to late Model Cadillac`s. Might be the large concentration of Jewish buyers that were steadfast and loyal for many years to the Mercury Marquis until they later switched over in droves to the Toyota Camry and later to the Hyundai Sonata. The bottom line is annual Vehicle sales totals matter but often regional differences sometimes keeps a Brand alive. Look at Subaru Car sales in The State of Vermont. Just Vermont alone has made that brand viable along with the Pacific NorthWest in America.

Exactly. Subaru is the 3rd highest seller in the state of CO, behind only Toyota & Ford, and have held around the 3rd position for the past decade or so here in CO.

 

Toyota has a slim lead over Ford for top spot, 10,917 sales to 10,824, followed by Subaru 8,340, Honda 6,993, Chevrolet 6,247, Nissan 5,325, Dodge/Ram 5,307, Jeep 4,834, Volkswagen 2,976 and Hyundai 2,832.

 

http://www.denverpost.com/budwells/ci_23875890/toyota-ford-locked-tight-sales-race-colo