J Mays: Lincoln "not true luxury brand"

[Deanh]

Wait...so nobody is going to call J Mays a negatard? He is clearly hating on Lincoln. And seriously, what are his qualifications?

 

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Kidding aside, I said the same thing yesterday. Lincoln has a lot of work to do and the MKZs biggest issue is the badge on the front. All of the quality issues and issues with MLT pale in comparison to the fact that Lincoln is not seen as a luxury brand and whos biggest competitor may be the vehicles that are shared from Ford.

 

It's going to take a very long time to build the type of brand cachet that the big names have.

I dont think so....what they really need is that blockbuster RWD coupe I keep hearing about.....

[rmc523]

I dont think so....what they really need is that blockbuster RWD coupe I keep hearing about.....

The MKR looking vehicle we saw under that tarp not too long ago?

[akirby]

You have both provided, IMHO, valid reasons for your own opinions from what I've seen.

 

Only one of them provide any valid reasons for their assertions.

[V8-X]

Only one of them provide any valid reasons for their assertions.

Please provide those assertions. Thank you!

 

 

So, when EBFlex suggests that Ford 'could be' gaming in-vehicle FE displays, and then insists that he has never 'insinuated' that Ford is mismanaged, you think that makes for good discourse?

 

You think that throwing contrary notions about and refusing to provide any evidence to substantiate them--and refusing to acknowledge their content--makes for good discourse?

 

Geez. I'd hate to see what you consider to be 'bad' discourse.

 

I disagree often with aneekr and Biker16. I've never considered recommending that either be suspended, because they at least marshal facts and coherent arguments in support of what they're saying.

Please provide a URL to the entire thread and/or posts you cited from the previous page. It's always hard to gather what is being stated and the honesty of a comment based on cherry picking one portion of what may be multiple or a long post. Was the statement being made sarcastically? Was it a question, followed by a personal opinion response as to why they believe such?

 

This pulling bits/pieces of what is truly stated is typical journalist manipulation. They provide only what they want the audience to hear, not the full content . This is done to increase conversation or debate. It's much like the media when they take one portion of something a politician says and turn it around without providing the full details. Which many times (not always of course) when you hear/read the details, the statement that was made comes across completely different.

Edited August 29, 2013 by V8-X

[RichardJensen]

Please provide a URL to the entire thread and/or posts you cited from the previous page

Link Here

Edited August 29, 2013 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

Please provide those assertions. Thank you!

 

While you're perusing EBFlex's content, please take note of the way he addressed the question of Lincoln's profitability, as compared to the way I addressed it.

 

He provided absolutely no reasoning or fact, I provided a factual description of corporate accounting, and what I believe is a sound rationale for the assertion that Lincoln is profitable, on the basis of GAAP.

 

Subsequent digging by another forum member turned up a remark in USA Today averring that Lincoln is marginally profitable. So you can either believe my arguments predicated on a solid basis in corporate accounting AND remarks in USA Today, or you can believe someone who furnishes no arguments and marshals no facts in support of his statements.

 

Your choice.

Edited August 29, 2013 by RichardJensen

[lfeg]

Getting back on track here, Lincoln has had stretches as "not a true luxury brand". It started life as a luxury car, quite exclusive and in a small market niche. Through the 30s and 41 they were primarily luxury with the possible exception of the Zepher, but the Zepher is one reason Lincoln survived the 30s. The first Continental secured Lincoln's luxury and exclusivity credentials. Post WWII into the early 50s, Lincoln held their own, but had issues - nice massive cars, but falling behind with the old flathead 8 truck engines they used. Then, they updated the line with new styling and modern OHV engines. But the "new, trimmer" Lincolns lost something too. The mid 50s saw Lincoln described as "fancy Fords". The high end Lincolns still had the substance, but the line, driven by the Road Race Lincolns took on a more performance rather than outright luxury tone. Then we had the garish late 50s Lincolns. They screamed "look at me" rather than luxury. Sure, they had the luxury appointments, but they were more of a gamblers car than old money luxury. Then we got the 60s Continental. Understated substance and luxury. To me this was a return to the feel and exclusivity of the K Lincolns of the past. Exclusive. Luxurious. Not for everyone, but everyone knew what it was. As we rolled into the 70s, Lincoln was broadening markets. The Marks took root and florished. But also, Lincoln was becomming mainstream again. Big sales numbers were good, but in chasing sales Lincoln lost exclusivity pretty much by the 90s. The initial Versailles was a tarted up Grenada (like the Cadillac Seville was a tarted up Nova), and the "fancy Ford" label started to return. And now we are at today, the term "fancy Ford" is not spoken, but is widely recognised. Not really a bad thing. This may be a replay of the mid 50s for all we know. A spell of decent sales of a "not quite" luxury Lincoln. Is there a new milenium Continental over the horizon? We do not know. But a near luxury Lincoln can be a success if done right, as that mathet segment is huge now.

Edited August 30, 2013 by lfeg

[grbeck]

Getting back on track here, Lincoln has had stretches as "not a true luxury brand". It started life as a luxury car, quite exclusive and in a small market niche. Through the 30s and 41 they were primarily luxury with the possible exception of the Zepher, but the Zepher is one reason Lincoln survived the 30s. The first Continental secured Lincoln's luxury and exclusivity credentials. Post WWII into the early 50s, Lincoln held their own, but had issues - nice massive cars, but falling behind with the old flathead 8 truck engines they used. Then, they updated the line with new styling and modern OHV engines. But the "new, trimmer" Lincolns lost something too. The mid 50s saw Lincoln described as "fancy Fords". The high end Lincolns still had the substance, but the line, driven by the Road Race Lincolns took on a more performance rather than outright luxury tone. Then we had the garish late 50s Lincolns. They screamed "look at me" rather than luxury. Sure, they had the luxury appointments, but they were more of a gamblers car than old money luxury. Then we got the 60s Continental. Understated substance and luxury. To me this was a return to the feel and exclusivity of the K Lincolns of the past. Exclusive. Luxurious. Not for everyone, but everyone knew what it was. As we rolled into the 70s, Lincoln was broadening markets. The Marks took root and florished. But also, Lincoln was becomming mainstream again. Big sales numbers were good, but in chasing sales Lincoln lost exclusivity pretty much by the 90s. The initial Versailles was a tarted up Grenada (like the Cadillac Seville was a tarted up Nova), and the "fancy Ford" label started to return. And now we are at today, the term "fancy Ford" is not spoken, but is widely recognised. Not really a bad thing. This may be a replay of the mid 50s for all we know. A spell of decent sales of a "not quite" luxury Lincoln. Is there a new milenium Continental over the horizon? We do not know. But a near luxury Lincoln can be a success if done right, as that mathet segment is huge now.

That's a good summary of Lincoln's history. The prewar Lincolns were the equal of the Cadillac V-12 and V-16 and Packard V-12 (and actually sold in comparable numbers to those particular models). It was the Zephyr, however, that ultimately saved the division (as the 120 saved Packard).

 

The problem with the "Road Race" Lincolns from 1952-55 was that the design target was the Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight, not the Cadillac. Earle MacPherson wanted a smaller, more manageable car, so he used the contemporary Oldsmobile as the design target. Before production began, management at Ford realized that they had an Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight competitor instead of a Cadillac competitor on their hands. The company tried to "dress up" the car with better interiors and a higher grade of trim. The resulting Lincolns were excellent cars - better than contemporary Cadillacs in some ways - but the public sensed that these Lincolns were not equal to the Cadillac in stature.

 

Lincoln faces some real challenges. Today I would argue that the true luxury market starts at the level of the Mercedes S-Class, and goes from there to the stratosphere (i.e., Rolls and Bentley). The Mercedes E-Class and C-Class are "near luxury" vehicles that trade off the image of the big S-Classes. That means, of course, that today's Cadillac isn't really a luxury brand either, despite what the fan boys over at GMInsidenews.com want to believe.

 

A luxury brand can offer less expensive models, as long as it continues to offer top-of-the-line models that cater to the truly wealthy. Packard proved that back in the 1920s, when it offered the Single Six along with the Twin Six and then the Single Eight. Mercedes-Benz proves it today. In Europe, a fair number of C-Classes and E-Classes are used as police cars and taxi cabs, but Mercedes is still thought of as a car for the rich, thanks to the S-Class and the very high-end sports cars.

 

The problem for Lincoln is that offering a competitor to the S-Class would require a huge investment, with no guarantee of success. BMW and Lexus really haven't made that much headway against the Mercedes S-Class. Mercedes has another advantage in that the S-Class is recognized all over the world as a status car. It doesn't just depend on wealthy North Americans and Europeans to keep the S-Class profitable. Lincoln simply does not have that level of credibility around the world.

 

I hope that Ford succeeds, but it has a tough assignment here. I wonder if somehow Ford could turn the new Mustang platform into a four-door Lincoln. Make sure it only comes with a V-8 and lavish interior trim. Yes, it would not be quite as refined as a Mercedes S-Class or BMW 7-Series, or even a Mercedes E-Class or BMW 5-Series. But if it offered distinctive styling, a great interior and a powerful, reliable drivetrain, I believe that it could carve out a distinctive niche for Lincoln, and perhaps even serve as a "halo" car for the MKZ and other vehicles. It would also likely be profitable.

 

Ford needs to remember that the way it ultimately succeeded against the old GM during the latter's heyday in the 1950s and 1960s was with attacks from side. The four-seat Thunderbird, suicide-door Lincolns, Mustang and original LTD were not weak-sauce copies of GM vehicles. Attacking GM head-on - which was what the Edsel and 1957-60 Mercurys tried to do - failed miserably. Ford needs to use similar creativity today as it attempts to compete in a luxury market dominated by European marques.

 

[RichardJensen]

Ford needs to remember that the way it ultimately succeeded against the old GM during the latter's heyday in the 1950s and 1960s was with attacks from side.

 

 

That's why you don't see Ford calling Lincoln a "Lexus fighter" or a "BMW fighter."

 

The long term goal for Lincoln is to carve out a niche apart from the BMW imitators out there.

Edited August 30, 2013 by RichardJensen

[mackinaw]

........In Europe, a fair number of C-Classes and E-Classes are used as police cars and taxi cabs, but Mercedes is still thought of as a car for the rich, thanks to the S-Class and the very high-end sports cars.

 

This is very true. When I was in Morocco years back, the taxi cab of choice was a diesel Mercedes. Across the Strait of Gibraltar, the "S" class was the luxury vehicle of choice.

[grbeck]

That's why you don't see Ford calling Lincoln a "Lexus fighter" or a "BMW fighter."

 

The long term goal for Lincoln is to carve out a niche apart from the BMW imitators out there.

I think that the MKZ has a nice, distinctive look to it. Nobody will mistake it for anything else. I'm anxious to see what the new MKS looks like (I don't like the current one at all). I still think that a Lincoln based on the new Mustang platform would be a good addition to the line.

[RichardJensen]

I'm more interested in what they do to, basically, recreate Lincoln as a 'craft' luxury product.

 

I mean, the dang things are mass assembled on a factory floor. Not much individual hand-tailored-Aston-Martin-y- guy hammering an aluminum fender over a wooden buck type assembly going on there.

 

But it's a smart idea. I mean, you take what is otherwise a weakness--low sales volume--and via clever marketing and product design, turn that into a virtue.

 

It wouldn't work today, but a variant of that early 80s commercial where Caddy owners couldn't find their cars carries the thought. A sort of, "Oh, you bought a BMW 3-Series? How original." approach.

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

I find J. Mays' comment odd and oddly timed in the context of the MKC being readied for production. Nearly every last person who is concerned about what is "true luxury" will see this as a plummet downward for the brand in that area. If you are already there you can move down. if you are not and you move down before up, what is the message?

 

I am told, however, by someone who attended Pebble Beach that Lincoln absolutely laid an egg there. Maybe J. was trying some damage control to that. Lincoln was a featured marque and presenting brand. They brought a red headliner. Meanwhile, Cadillac brought the Elmiraj. Score that "MKwouldliketocrawlundertheturf". Reportedly, negative talk about Lincoln was rampant. Announcing the firing of Susan Lampinen would be much better damage control in my opinion than what J. said, which sends the message to not buy a Lincoln for ten more years.

Edited August 30, 2013 by TBirdStangSkyliner

[Bored of Pisteon]

It wouldn't work today, but a variant of that early 80s commercial where Caddy owners couldn't find their cars carries the thought. A sort of, "Oh, you bought a BMW 3-Series? How original." approach.

 

I would like to see Lincoln re-create a commercial I think I saw on youtube once where there was people riding in an old 70's Lincoln Continental or Mercury Marquis emphazing the smooth, quiet-ride effect. I'm sure that video is still out there. Maybe that will draw in some buyers only because of the ride factor. Who knows.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Bored of Pisteon

[RichardJensen]

Meanwhile, Cadillac brought the Elmiraj.

 

Which is worth what, exactly? Does it make the XTS, CTS and ATS look better or worse? And what are the odds that the Elmiraj ever sees production in anything remotely resembling that form?

 

For all the noise about the Elmiraj, the big questions are: can you buy it? and will it sell other Cadillacs?

 

The answers are : No and I don't think so.

[Deanh]

I think that the MKZ has a nice, distinctive look to it. Nobody will mistake it for anything else. I'm anxious to see what the new MKS looks like (I don't like the current one at all). I still think that a Lincoln based on the new Mustang platform would be a good addition to the line.

apparently theres a bulk load of ill informed people mistaking the Z for a "tarted up" Fusion.....

[Deanh]

I think that the MKZ has a nice, distinctive look to it. Nobody will mistake it for anything else. I'm anxious to see what the new MKS looks like (I don't like the current one at all). I still think that a Lincoln based on the new Mustang platform would be a good addition to the line.

Houston , we have a double posting issue.....

Edited August 30, 2013 by Deanh

[PREMiERdrum]

And what are the odds that the Elmiraj ever sees production in anything remotely resembling that form?

 

 

Judging by the mules... ZETA! LOL

 

 

 

One of the biggest debuts at the Monterey car week, both literally and figuratively, was the Cadillac Elmiraj Concept. The massive coupe made quite a splash with the show's well-heeled guests. Now, we have what might be the very first images of the Elmiraj, or whatever it may be called when it reaches production, out testing.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/30/cadillac-flagship-possible-production-elmiraj-caught-testing-spy-shots/

Edited August 30, 2013 by PREMiERdrum

[RichardJensen]

So the Elmiraj is a two-door preview of the on-again-off-again-no-it-wasn't-what-you-thought-it-was-it-was-something-else "flagship" Cadillac? A vehicle that seemingly every source has said will be a sedan?

 

They're going to build a "7-Series Fighter" off the bones of a police car? Well, have fun with that, GM fans, but don't make fun of Ford for making a "5-Series fighter" off the same architecture as a police car.

Edited August 30, 2013 by RichardJensen

[papilgee4evaeva]

To be fair, didn't we here get defensive when detractors said that the new Explorer was going to reuse the Freestyle body based on some spy shots of mules?

There's no Zeta Cadillac in the cards. What we see is likely a powertrain mule on the Omega platform (which underpinned both the Ciel and Elmiraj).

However, if you want, you can call the Elmiraj a refreshed two-door version of the Ciel. That seems only fair. :poke:

[RichardJensen]

Well, but the thing is, the Explorer was based on the same platform as the Freestyle.

 

If GM wants to call a longer, wider, and heavier version of Zeta "Omega", then so be it.

[jpd80]

Well, but the thing is, the Explorer was based on the same platform as the Freestyle.

 

If GM wants to call a longer, wider, and heavier version of Zeta "Omega", then so be it.

The stupid part is that Zeta was always intended to develop a larger envelope of vehicles,

that why the Commodore and Caprice are overweight because they are deliberately over engineered.

 

In a perfect world, GM could have had Zeta for all the large and extra large vehicles

and a simpler Alpha based on Holden's original ideas for small and mid sized vehicles.

Insted we se GM continually reinventing the wheel ahead of other more important projects...

 

GM would have to be the best example of dysfunctional "not invented here/ together" you'll ever see.

Edited August 30, 2013 by jpd80

[Edstock]

Not much individual hand-tailored-Aston-Martin-y- guy hammering an aluminum fender over a wooden buck type assembly going on there.

 

This is where Ford's recent demonstration of their new metal shaping technology gets very, very interesting, if say, you are building 400-500 V-12 (Aston is moving to M-B) sleds a year. No body dies for a lot of the vehicle. If the production run is limited, then maybe a composite tub chassis as well, to eliminate those dies as well. The point is it might allow Lincoln to actually afford to produce some really fine product in the 100K+ “True Luxury” strata.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Well, but the thing is, the Explorer was based on the same platform as the Freestyle.

 

Granted. But people were saying it was going to be the exact same vehicle, just lifted. We knew better though.

 

If GM wants to call a longer, wider, and heavier version of Zeta Alpha "Omega", then so be it.

 

FTFY. (Hmm... Alpha and Omega. Now I get it.)

[sullynd]

Ford should pull out a Freestyle mule every once in a while. First it was ZOMG! The Flex is going to look just like a freestyle! Then, ZOMG! The MkT is going to look just like a freestyle! Then, ZOMG! The Explorer is going to look just like a Freestyle!

 

Throw a running horse on the grill, some zebra camo, and send the intern for coffee.