Autonews: Once-promising dual-clutch transmissions lose favor in U.S.

[Biker16]

http://www.autonews.com/article/20151207/OEM06/312079988/once-promising-dual-clutch-transmissions-lose-favor-in-u-s

 

 

 

Not so long ago, dual-clutch transmissions -- with their superior fuel economy and lightning-quick gear shifts -- were widely viewed as the Next Big Thing.

Automakers were counting on those gearboxes to improve fuel economy ratings 6 to 10 percent without compromising performance.

Not anymore.

After Volkswagen introduced dual- clutch transmissions in 2003, several mass-market automakers followed suit, only to encounter quality bugs and consumer complaints.

Ford Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. suffered a spate of complaints after introducing dual- clutch transmissions in the Ford Focus, Ford Fiesta and Acura TLX. And Fiat Chrysler -- which once planned to produce 700,000 dual- shift gearboxes a year in the U.S. -- has dropped it from its long-term plans for North America.

Consumer Reports and J.D. Power have both reported a sharp uptick in complaints about faulty transmissions, as automakers seeking better fuel economy rolled out dual-clutch gearboxes, continuously variable transmissions and eight- and nine-speed transmissions.

"In the past, transmissions were things you could count on, but that's no longer true," said Jake Fisher, Consumer Reports' director of auto testing. "We are seeing major problems that will leave people stranded on the side of the road."

[ZanatWork]

...aaaaand one continuing issue with Focus sales is possibly reported....

[Pioneer]

And Ford is doubling down on them with a new joint venture factory with Getrag?

 

Hope the next generation has a manual option.....

[silvrsvt]

And Ford is doubling down on them with a new joint venture factory with Getrag?

 

If done properly, they can be good....or at least I hope they can be.

 

The other issue that DSG and CVT's face vs Automatic transmissions is they operate differently then what the vast majority of users are used to. You can roll with a DSG (did that in a Focus) and well CVT's sound like a hamster at times when they peak out at 3-4K and just are flat vs the peak and drops you have with a manual/automatic transmission. I wonder how much that is hurting their adoption. I think Mazda has a torque converter on their CVTs so they feel like an automatic.

[akirby]

The wet clutch versions don't have the same problems like the Focus/Fiesta dry clutch. But I think they'll stick around in performance applications.

[akirby]

 

I think Mazda has a torque converter on their CVTs so they feel like an automatic.

 

That's Honda.

[Biker16]

The use of Dog clutches in New >7 speed automatic transmsiion have had alot of complaints too.

 

 

 

Because dog clutches can’t slip, their engagement must be controlled and precise. Going back to the manual transmission example, this is why modern manual transmissions have “synchros” or synchromesh. A Synchro is a mechanism that aligns the dog teeth prior to engagement. Without them you get that distinct gear grinding noise. Synchros work well in a manual transmission because when you are changing gear you are disconnecting the engine with the clutch (a friction clutch), then engaging a dog clutch for your gear selection. Because one end of the transmission is “free” the synchro synchronizes the two sides and then allows the toothed gear to engage. There is a “pause” in power when a shift occurs. If you look at an acceleration chart of a car with a good manual driver and an automatic you will see pauses in acceleration in the manual while most autos just have “reductions” in acceleration. That’s down to the pause required to engage a dog clutch vs a friction clutch that slips and engages without much reduction in power.

[MY93SHO]

I can remember when the 500 with the 6 speed came out. "It doesn't shift like the 4 speed transmission I had!"

 

You'll never make everyone happy.

 

We had a guy order a 1500 Sierra with a 4.3 because it still had the 4 speed auto in it. "I can't handle that 6 speed shifting all the time!"

[justins]

They've dropped the DSG in Thai built Focus that we get in Oz. Now has a standard TC 6 speed and apparently it's great.

[Anthony]

I'm still low in miles, but I still like my DCT. But I can see (problems aside) why some may not like it with it's different style of shifting than conventional autos.

 

(Note: I am allowed to change my opinion over the next 60k+ miles)

[92merc]

They've dropped the DSG in Thai built Focus that we get in Oz. Now has a standard TC 6 speed and apparently it's great.

From what I've read, in Europe, they're using a slushbox with the 1.5EB also. Mostly due to the DCT not being able to handle the torque. And it returns better FE numbers than the 2.0 NA and DCT.

[fuzzymoomoo]

From what I've read, in Europe, they're using a slushbox with the 1.5EB also. Mostly due to the DCT not being able to handle the torque. And it returns better FE numbers than the 2.0 NA and DCT.

Which really adds to the question of why we don't get that powertrain here.

[PREMiERdrum]

(Note: I am allowed to change my opinion over the next 60k+ miles)

Overruled.

[Steveottawa]

So how is this Porsche transmission different from the dual-clutch?

[akirby]

It's not - it's a dual clutch design as is the one in the Ferrari 458. They both work great.

 

And that's all I'm allowed to say........

[Anthony]

If only I had a video......

[fordmantpw]

Don't Porshe and Ferrari use wet clutches where the Focus uses a dry clutch?

[aneekr]

Don't Porshe and Ferrari use wet clutches where the Focus uses a dry clutch?

 

That's correct. Porsche PDK is a wet clutch design from ZF, while Ferrari uses a wet clutch DCT designed by Getrag.

[jpd80]

Which really adds to the question of why we don't get that powertrain here.

Some people don't want to hear the truth that DSG is a failed experiment

and that most US customers in this segment prefer a familiar auto.

[jpd80]

 

If done properly, they can be good....or at least I hope they can be.

 

The other issue that DSG and CVT's face vs Automatic transmissions is they operate differently then what the vast majority of users are used to. You can roll with a DSG (did that in a Focus) and well CVT's sound like a hamster at times when they peak out at 3-4K and just are flat vs the peak and drops you have with a manual/automatic transmission. I wonder how much that is hurting their adoption. I think Mazda has a torque converter on their CVTs so they feel like an automatic.

This is not to say that autos are better than the DSGs, I think a good one is great but they

will always be different to and hane a different feel to the autos most US buyers as familiar with.

 

In this case, I hope the buyer wins out and we see something like a 8 or 9-speed auto

but will that be a Getrag DSG modified to accept a lock up torque converter.... who knows...

Edited December 8, 2015 by jpd80

[Biker16]

Which really adds to the question of why we don't get that powertrain here.

 

Cost: DCTs are cheaper and non turbo engines are cheaper.

 

Some people don't want to hear the truth that DSG is a failed experiment

and that most US customers in this segment prefer a familiar auto.

 

They said the same thing about CVTs.

 

This is not to say that autos are better than the DSGs, I think a good one is great but they

will always be different to and hane a different feel to the autos most US buyers as familiar with.

 

In this case, I hope the buyer wins out and we see something like a 8 or 9-speed auto

but will that be a Getrag DSG modified to accept a lock up torque converter.... who knows...

 

For Low torque and mass applications DCT or CVT are the best Option for cost and performance.

[theoldwizard]

Disclosure: I was directly involved with the first Ford prototype DCT back in the early 80s. We had cars running, but like any first gen prototype there were a LOT of issues.

Ford's biggest problem with their current DCT was a last minute decision to put that transmission in a Focus. It was never supposed to go in anything larger than the Fiesta with a 1.6L engine.

Second problem was the decision to stay with a "dry" clutch. Even though Ford did a lot of development with Luk, everyone on the development team knew that clutch wear versus shift quality was a very difficult issue, primarily because for decent "feel", the clutch had to be slipped 5-10% almost continuously ! Not difficult on a wet clutch. Very difficult o a dry clutch if you want 100k durability.

Third, shifts take time ! The more gears you have, the faster the shifts must occur. The Ford/Getrag box uses all electric actuators (motors). On a hard, fast acceleration from a stop, those gear forks are doing a lot of moving and the electric actuators (motors) are geared down (more mechanical force, less electrical power) so moving the slider back and forth is not exactly instantaneous.


Probably the vest thing said is "tell the customer what to expect". I would go one step further and say take the customer on a long test drive, or better yet, hook the up with a 24-48 hour test drive. If they know it is "different" than a typical slushbox, there will be a lot less compaints.

Edited December 8, 2015 by theoldwizard

[ANTAUS]

I remember there being "gossip" on this site many years ago about the DST in the Focus being phased in and such. I remember Biker spoke and "educated" us about it back then. Unfortunately for Ford, they were trying to eek out every MPG possible, this decision might have hurt the Focus.

[akirby]

I had a Fiesta rental a few months ago that shuddered terribly on takeoff. I knew what it was so it didn't concern me on a one day rental but the problem was not limited to 2.0L Focii.

[silvrsvt]

 

Cost: DCTs are cheaper and non turbo engines are cheaper.

 

Well given the fact that the 2L I4 is only found in the Focus in NA, you'd think it would be better off for Ford to replace it with the 1.5L Ecoboost instead...easier to add 200K or so engines to a line then have your own separate line just for the 2L DFI engine...I know its oversimplified, but the point remains.