Ford gets downgraded on rising SUV competition from GM

[fordmantpw]

 

Yeah, that's what I was mainly referring to. Does chassis cab production really move the needle in comparison to the pickups though?

 

I honestly don't know how many C&C trucks are built every month.

[akirby]

I agree the Lincoln dealerships are suspect. I hope this is something Ford works to address in the near future

 

 

What, exactly, do you think they can do beyond what they've already done which is to set forth standards which includes a standalone building, dedicated staff, upscale experience, etc. The problem is the dealers are not obliged to follow those standards and there really isn't anything Lincoln can do about it. They're not going to pay to upgrade every Lincoln dealer.

[SoonerLS]

Define what medium those ads are done though. To be honest there is so much advertising these days that everything more or less gets mixed together unless there is some sort of stand out advertisement.

Hmm, let me count the different media types where I haven't seen a Focus or Fusion ad... What is "all of them," Alex?

 

[kyle]

 

And don't forget GM has a plant dedicated to its big SUVs, whereas the Expedition and Navigator share a building with the Super Duty. Probably not very likely that Ford can build more anywhere else (if I'm wrong, someone tell me).

 

RE: the stores - are you talking only about the ones that are dedicated Cadillac dealers, or are you including the ones that share lot space with the Chevy Sonic?

I was talking more about the single point locations but even their duales stores have a distinct entrance for Cadillac. Not across the board but most of them. When GM came out of bankruptcy they basically renegotiated every agreement with their dealers and in that agreement dictated to their dealers they must update all their stores, etc.

good points my on the plant production shared with the F250.

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

I honestly don't know how many C&C trucks are built every month.

at least 500

[akirby]

. When GM came out of bankruptcy they basically renegotiated every agreement with their dealers and in that agreement dictated to their dealers they must update all their stores, etc.

 

If that's true then maybe Ford should have declared BK and renegotiated their franchise agreements.

[jasonj80]

 

 

What, exactly, do you think they can do beyond what they've already done which is to set forth standards which includes a standalone building, dedicated staff, upscale experience, etc. The problem is the dealers are not obliged to follow those standards and there really isn't anything Lincoln can do about it. They're not going to pay to upgrade every Lincoln dealer.

The problem too is location, Lincoln dealerships are not usually in the best areas now as city demographics changed. When they were built they were in higher income are on a busy road, but now sit next to a dead mall on a road that is to far from an interstate or new shopping destination. The way franchise laws work they are not allowed to move far as you'll end up in someone else territory.

[akirby]

That's where Lexus, Acura and Infiniti have a big advantage since those were all built within the last 30 years.

[grbeck]

The dealerships are a big problem for Lincoln. There is one Lincoln dealer for all of Harrisburg. It's a long-time Ford dealer (in business since 1940, under the same family) that took on the Lincoln franchise after the two local Lincoln-Mercury dealers closed in the early 2000s. We bought our last two Fords from this dealer. The entire facility is modern and very nice, but Fords and Lincolns are sold out of the same showroom, and owners of both brands use the same service area. (One side of the showroom features Fords, the other Lincolns.)

 

A big problem has been that this dealer has basically ignored the Lincoln line. This dealership is located along the main commercial street running through the western suburbs of Harrisburg (where most luxury car buyers live), but the vehicles in the front lot have always been Mustangs, Escapes and Explorers! The Lincolns were shoved in the back lot, were people driving by and walking by could not see them. Last week this dealer finally put some Lincolns - a few Continentals and MKZs - in the front row.

 

In Chambersburg (population roughly 18,000), the Lincoln dealer is actually a standalone dealer that has been owned by the same family for decades. They've kept the franchise even with the loss of Mercury. It's located in an older (but not shabby) building along a major commercial strip. One might call the entire dealership "quaint." The dealership must be selling enough vehicles to stay in business, but the Ford franchise is located in the new, suburban area just off the interstate, and features a brand-new showroom and service facility. It simply looks much more impressive.

[tbone]

 

 

What, exactly, do you think they can do beyond what they've already done which is to set forth standards which includes a standalone building, dedicated staff, upscale experience, etc. The problem is the dealers are not obliged to follow those standards and there really isn't anything Lincoln can do about it. They're not going to pay to upgrade every Lincoln dealer.

I understand the dealers are independent, and I'm not sure what exactly can be done to incentivize them to do the things you have mentioned, which I think are integral to taking Lincoln to the next level. I suspect it is going to take some form of financial incentive to move the ball forward on this matter, which I think Ford can afford to do.

[rmc523]

Now that the Expedition has softer lines and is really similarly styled as the Explorer, I think it will penetrate the market deeper this time. They sell tons of Explorers and a large number are driven by women.

 

I agree the Lincoln dealerships are suspect. I hope this is something Ford works to address in the near future, especially since they are finally getting great products to put in them. Every time I drive by a Ford/Lincoln dealership near me and see the two brands mixed together, it really pisses me off.

 

Yeah, it's funny Ford pushed Lincoln dealers to consolidate with Ford dealers and closed a lot of standalone dealerships when the whole restructuring happened, and now they're finding themselves needing new standalone dealers.

 

The local dealer is one paired with a Ford dealership, and while they did redo it within the last few years, I don't know if it's quite up to the true level of what Lincoln truly wants. It's very much like the poster above who said half of the small showroom is Ford, half is Lincoln - there's only about 6 vehicles inside. It's not a Black Label dealer. The closest Black Label dealer is 30 miles away at least.

 

It's a shame too - during the restructuring, the Lincoln dealer that was down the street from where I am closed and became a Honda dealer. Perhaps the worst part is, they took part of the lot and added a Rolls Royce, Bentley, and Aston Martin dealer, so it's not as if the market couldn't handle Lincoln. An Infiniti dealer is two blocks away, and about a mile down the road in one direction, Audi built a 2 story showroom with a 4 story garage behind, and just last week BMW just built/opened this absolutely massive 2 levels) with a 5 or 6-story garage behind it (not to mention the service center they just opened that's just about the same size at a different location).

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by rmc523

[fuzzymoomoo]

There's only 2 standalone Lincoln dealers I can think of in the Detroit area, and that's Lincoln's home market!

[rmc523]

Do we think Lincoln's limited dealer network is hindering their growth?

[akirby]

I understand the dealers are independent, and I'm not sure what exactly can be done to incentivize them to do the things you have mentioned, which I think are integral to taking Lincoln to the next level. I suspect it is going to take some form of financial incentive to move the ball forward on this matter, which I think Ford can afford to do.

 

I don't disagree that it would be a wise investment by Lincoln but even with that you need the commitment from the dealer and a commitment to ongoing customer service changes.

[akirby]

I don't think standalone dealers were a problem per se or that Lincoln wanted consolidation - I think they simply wanted to reduce the number of Lincoln dealerships and those were the first to go due to limited products after Mercury was killed.

 

You need product before you invest in new dealerships. With Continental and Navigator I think they're almost there with the product portfolio that would encourage such investments.

[rmc523]

I don't think standalone dealers were a problem per se or that Lincoln wanted consolidation - I think they simply wanted to reduce the number of Lincoln dealerships and those were the first to go due to limited products after Mercury was killed.

 

You need product before you invest in new dealerships. With Continental and Navigator I think they're almost there with the product portfolio that would encourage such investments.

 

I guess that's true. The consolidated dealers were better able to survive because the Ford side could keep the place running while Lincoln redid the lineup.

[akirby]

 

I guess that's true. The consolidated dealers were better able to survive because the Ford side could keep the place running while Lincoln redid the lineup.

 

Exactly. And a lot of those standalone dealers were relics from the 60s and 70s that needed to go anyway.

[kyle]

 

Yeah, it's funny Ford pushed Lincoln dealers to consolidate with Ford dealers and closed a lot of standalone dealerships when the whole restructuring happened, and now they're finding themselves needing new standalone dealers.

 

The local dealer is one paired with a Ford dealership, and while they did redo it within the last few years, I don't know if it's quite up to the true level of what Lincoln truly wants. It's very much like the poster above who said half of the small showroom is Ford, half is Lincoln - there's only about 6 vehicles inside. It's not a Black Label dealer. The closest Black Label dealer is 30 miles away at least.

 

It's a shame too - during the restructuring, the Lincoln dealer that was down the street from where I am closed and became a Honda dealer. Perhaps the worst part is, they took part of the lot and added a Rolls Royce, Bentley, and Aston Martin dealer, so it's not as if the market couldn't handle Lincoln. An Infiniti dealer is two blocks away, and about a mile down the road in one direction, Audi built a 2 story showroom with a 4 story garage behind, and just last week BMW just built/opened this absolutely massive 2 levels) with a 5 or 6-story garage behind it (not to mention the service center they just opened that's just about the same size at a different location).

 

 

 

Funny I was in Ft Lauderdale Sunday and went by those stores-goregous. The owners of these stores have very very deep pockets and think they spent around $30 million on the BMW store (I worked with BMW and saw their plans and met with their GM on this). The funny thing is the owners-Holman (who own ARI-largest automotive fleet company in the world) started with a Ford/Lincoln store that they still have in NJ?.

Edited August 8, 2017 by kyle

[630land]

Seems like they are coasting on F series trucks, as if that's all there is?

[rmc523]

 

 

Funny I was in Ft Lauderdale Sunday and went by those stores-goregous. The owners of these stores have very very deep pockets and think they spent around $30 million on the BMW store (I worked with BMW and saw their plans and met with their GM on this). The funny thing is the owners-Holman (who own ARI-largest automotive fleet company in the world) started with a Ford/Lincoln store that they still have in NJ?.

 

Welcome if you were visiting!

 

Yeah, Holman is one of the bigger groups in the area - they also owned the Lincoln franchise that became the Honda dealer (it's Holman Honda), as well as the aforementioned Aston/Bentley/RR dealer.

[jasonj80]

There's only 2 standalone Lincoln dealers I can think of in the Detroit area, and that's Lincoln's home market!

Ford Dealerships and GM/FCA around Detroit are generally dumps compared to foreign makers here. Look at Village Ford/Fairlane Ford and Demmer Lincoln they are all within a mile of world headquarters and you'd think they would be the best in the world and most haven't been though a full gut and remodel from the time they opened, smell like sewer gas in parts from old plumbing and have the if you didn't have a-plan we'd rip you off vibe. The parts that have been updated end up looking like a home DIY project of various halfass updates. They have a built in audience of buyers, and some in Metro Detroit haven't been touched in 30+ years. When you go to the Honda/Toyota/Lexus/BMW/MB they are bright, updated, friendly people (well except at the BMW dealerships here, miserable people there - but it still looks updated and clean) have nice service waiting area with wifi that works, a tv and some basic snacks that are free. Taylor Ford would be the exception as its a ground up redo of an old building, and Tom Holzer as it is in a fancier part of town and when they did the update they were required to do a lot from the city on the outside.

 

The only ones I would say are exceptions are the new redone Buick/GMC - they moved to new locations and where they did stay they did very extensive remodels -- to the point people worked in trailers for months while they were completed.

[sullynd]

I loved our old Lincoln dealer, I always had my Escape serviced there. It was a family run shop, and though the store was dated, service was excellent. When they closed Lincoln went to the big Ford dealer in town that I can't stand. We bought both of our current Fords from a dealer around ten miles from here, and service them there as well. The big ford dealer is building a new Porsche store, and their (10year?) old one is right next to the Ford store, so I'm wondering if it may become a freestanding Lincoln.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Ford Dealerships and GM/FCA around Detroit are generally dumps compared to foreign makers here. Look at Village Ford/Fairlane Ford and Demmer Lincoln they are all within a mile of world headquarters and you'd think they would be the best in the world and most haven't been though a full gut and remodel from the time they opened, smell like sewer gas in parts from old plumbing and have the if you didn't have a-plan we'd rip you off vibe. The parts that have been updated end up looking like a home DIY project of various halfass updates. They have a built in audience of buyers, and some in Metro Detroit haven't been touched in 30+ years. When you go to the Honda/Toyota/Lexus/BMW/MB they are bright, updated, friendly people (well except at the BMW dealerships here, miserable people there - but it still looks updated and clean) have nice service waiting area with wifi that works, a tv and some basic snacks that are free. Taylor Ford would be the exception as its a ground up redo of an old building, and Tom Holzer as it is in a fancier part of town and when they did the update they were required to do a lot from the city on the outside.

 

The only ones I would say are exceptions are the new redone Buick/GMC - they moved to new locations and where they did stay they did very extensive remodels -- to the point people worked in trailers for months while they were completed.

I usually go to Taylor Ford ever since Gorno tried to rip me off.

[mackinaw]

Do we think Lincoln's limited dealer network is hindering their growth?

 

 

Probably. I live in a rural area. The Ford/Lincoln dealer in my town recently changed owners. The new owner has decided not to sell Lincoln vehicles, though they will service them. The nearest Lincoln dealer is now an hour’s drive away.

[Harley Lover]

I don't think standalone dealers were a problem per se or that Lincoln wanted consolidation - I think they simply wanted to reduce the number of Lincoln dealerships and those were the first to go due to limited products after Mercury was killed.

 

You need product before you invest in new dealerships. With Continental and Navigator I think they're almost there with the product portfolio that would encourage such investments.

 

A brand that will sell 115-125,000 units in the U.S. cannot expect very many dealers to commit $$ to build stand alone dealerships, or to spend significant $$ to rebuild/upgrade to whatever Ford has decided is the latest standard. There will presumably be a few exceptions that have the volume to justify such investment, but by and large, the business case isn't there.