Planned $700 billion investment at FRAP changed

[jcartwright99]

I would bet dollars to donuts that the market for EVs is grossly exaggerated, which is why Im not concerned with Fords position at this time. The infrastructure is not even remotely close to being in place right now, and battery capacity and price are still a major limitation. Do you realize how many people do not have an assigned parking place, let alone a garage, in urban centers. What method will these people use to charge their cars. Im not suggesting solutions wont be found, and this wont be the future, but who is going to pay for that infrastructure and how long before it is in place to sustain a transition.

 

Rperez817 - your chart above would have been more useful had it included the total number EVs sold during the described time frame. Then we would have had a better picture of EV sales relative to the overall market.

 

Tesla dominates this market because its products are compelling, but above that it is seen as a luxury vehicle, and those people can afford the high prices. Teslas are not compact shit boxes that that someone is using as an appliance to get from point A to point B or trying to make some reficulous green statement.

 

Most people who have Teslas have multiple cars and at least 1 gasoline powered car/hybrid.

[tbone]

 

Where are all the transitional vehicles like Hybrid versions of Escape, Edge, Explorer, Mustang F150?

Surely, those are of far more importance to buyers in the next five or then years....

Agreed, to me these are the most important in an effort to get mainstream buy in to electric vehicles. I believe going from a hybrid to an EV would be a much easier transition for the average consumer since they would have real world knowledge of the electric capabilities.

[rmc523]

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2017/12/07/ford-mexico-plant-flat-rock/930008001/

 

I see the point he was making (and I agree there's been a lot of back and forth lately), but to be fair, this move is putting production in a plant that already exists, not building a new one.

 

For all of the board and Senior management's desire to be seen as a highly tech embracing company,

Ford still has to listen to the people who know the business best and where actual income is derived.

 

Am I stupid or is Ford now chasing unicorn products that only a handful of buyers actually want?

I remember Bill Ford in the early 2000s setting Ford on a course of mass hybrid roll out (~25%?)

without ever considering what buyers wanted and whether it was actually commercially viable.

 

Where are all the transitional vehicles like Hybrid versions of Escape, Edge, Explorer, Mustang F150?

Surely, those are of far more importance to buyers in the next five or then years....

 

Well, Bill Ford did put "his" guy in charge of the company, so it's not surprising to see them shift back toward the pie in the sky direction.

[tbone]

Oh, it was reported this week that some talking head in CARB is trying to make ICE cars unavailable for sale in CA by 2020. Purely grandstanding at its best to catch a headline but those nut jobs out there want to kill gasoline powered cars as soon as possible.

Good luck with that one. Thats just lunacy.

[Harley Lover]

Where are all the transitional vehicles like Hybrid versions of Escape, Edge, Explorer, Mustang F150?

Surely, those are of far more importance to buyers in the next five or then years....

 

I've been assuming that those are all forthcoming as we approach the 20's; I don't see any other way for Ford to meet the upcoming MPG regs in the first half of the next decade.

[rperez817]

Oh, it was reported this week that some talking head in CARB is trying to make ICE cars unavailable for sale in CA by 2020. Purely grandstanding at its best to catch a headline but those nut jobs out there want to kill gasoline powered cars as soon as possible.

 

 

Good luck with that one. Thats just lunacy.

 

I think that China, India, Great Britain, Norway, and France have announced plans to phase out gasoline and diesel cars within the next 20 years. Some government officials in California want to do the same. I think a California legislator said something like "if China can do it, why can't California?".

[silvrsvt]

 

 

 

I think that China, India, Great Britain, Norway, and France have announced plans to phase out gasoline and diesel cars within the next 20 years. Some government officials in California want to do the same. I think a California legislator said something like "if China can do it, why can't California?".

 

2020 is 2 years away...2040 is 22 years away...that is a much more attainable goal.

[tbone]

 

 

 

I think that China, India, Great Britain, Norway, and France have announced plans to phase out gasoline and diesel cars within the next 20 years. Some government officials in California want to do the same. I think a California legislator said something like "if China can do it, why can't California?".

Yeah, China is who I would want to emulate.

[Footballfan]

Yeah, China is who I would want to emulate.

LOL. What ever happened to the US setting the standard, not lowering the bar to others?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Footballfan

[Footballfan]

This move reminds me of the hodge-podge upper management shuffle Jr. implemented before he hired Mulally. Ford knows that ditching NAFTA is would hurt them, and its future is less than certain under the Trump admisntration. Why put fuel on the fire by moving work slated for the US to Mexico. Furthermore, the electric car is estimated to sell over five times the amount as the AV per the Free Press article linked below. No way will Ford need 1,000 more employes to assemble 4,500 drones even if they are more complicated than a regular car.

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2017/12/07/ford-mexico-plant-flat-rock/930008001/

Edited December 8, 2017 by Footballfan

[Footballfan]

. That was rumored a couple of years ago. Could still happen but from what I understand its still VERY up in the air.

 

Edit: I think you misread the article. The other thing is the electric suv nobody seems to know or care about thats going to Mexico.

 

This article made reference to a fourth vehicle at Flat Rock too:

 

"Separate from its electric and autonomous vehicle plans, Ford also plans to introduce a fourth vehicle to be built at Flat Rock in the next few years."

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2017/12/07/ford-mexico-plant-flat-rock/930008001/

[Pioneer]

We need another Mulally. Hackett is putting to much into the self diving aspect and not enough into the consumer end.

[rperez817]

LOL. What ever happened to the US setting the standard, not lowering the bar to others?

 

That's why some California officials are pushing for phase out of gasoline and diesel powered cars on an aggressive timeframe. They want their state to beat China.

[Footballfan]

LOL, something tells me that Ford just cut the balls off their US EV plans, or maybe moved most of it to China..

 

and don't be surprised if the anonymous autonomous vehicle program also suffers a reality check too...

 

To be honest, I am not impresed by the AV program, and to be honest, I could care less if it goes away. It is a technology, IMHO that is far from being ready and is simply window dressing to appease Wall Street. I am more interested in a Ford Ecosport, the Ranger and Bronco that seems is taking forever to come to market because Ford is wasting resources on the AV program. I would also be interested to see how the Lincoln lineup fills out especially with a new coupe or larger sedan than the Continental.

[silvrsvt]

We need another Mulally. Hackett is putting to much into the self diving aspect and not enough into the consumer end.

 

See that's the problem that pretty much all automakers are facing now. The future isn't clearly defined 10 years from now, due to what Tesla has been promising the market and stock market expectations of stock price.

 

Long term (10+ years), it looks like ICE engines will be getting replaced more and more by electric powered cars. Outside of some fringe tech like Variable displacement engines that are coming out in the next 12 months or so, it seems like improvements to ICE engines in the market place is going to be limited to what is currently in production and whatever improvements they can bolt on to it.

 

The general auto market is going into the next 10-15 years with lots of uncertainty of where its actually going to wind up at. Who would have thought that CUV's are going to make up better then 50% of the total new car sales back in 2008 or so, when gas was $4 bucks a gallon?

 

I think that is the biggest issue with the auto industry-the future is very cloudy and no one has a real clue as to how its all going to shake out. You have people on one extreme saying personal car ownership is going away-I think we will seem some sort of hybrid of car sharing and ownership down the road...

[rmc523]

 

This article made reference to a fourth vehicle at Flat Rock too:

 

"Separate from its electric and autonomous vehicle plans, Ford also plans to introduce a fourth vehicle to be built at Flat Rock in the next few years."

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2017/12/07/ford-mexico-plant-flat-rock/930008001/

 

My guess is MKZ's successor moves there alongside Conti.

[silvrsvt]

 

My guess is MKZ's successor moves there alongside Conti.

 

 

More or less likely---a Mustang based Lincoln

 

Why pull 40K or so MKZs out of Mexico?

[jasonj80]

 

Why pull 40K or so MKZs out of Mexico?

To make room for overflow Escape and Electric vehicle production. Well or maybe all hybrid/plug in Escape/Kuga come from Mexico.

[fuzzymoomoo]

To make room for overflow Escape and Electric vehicle production. Well or maybe all hybrid/plug in Escape/Kuga come from Mexico.

No, the electric SUV is going to Cuautitlán, not Hermosillo. Any potential Escape overflow would probably go there, not Hermosillo

[jpd80]

this is the first of the pull backs with board and chief executive level image baased products,

the reality is that no one knows whether autonomous vehicles for ride share networks will be

as popular as the tech companies try to insist.

 

Ford now realizes the reality that the EV Utility will be low volume and has ceded it to Cuautitlan

mostly because it will be similar size as the Fiesta....which is probably why it was never going to be

all that successful.

 

I now have serious concerns regarding the economic viability of Ford's Autonomous vehicle program.

If indeed the bulk of that production is for ride share companies, why is it being built in a high labor cost zone?

Edited December 8, 2017 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

I now have serious concerns regarding the economic viability of Ford's Autonomous vehicle program.

If indeed the bulk of that production is for ride share companies, why is it being built in a high labor cost zone?

Because they already have the space available on the FRAP property for a new building, the state of Michigan is probably giving them good incentive to build it there, and its close to Dearborn so the engineers dont have to relocate.

[bzcat]

There are 6 possible vehicles candidates for Mexico and 2 plants:

 

• Fusion/MKZ, Escape/MKC 2nd plant, Small C utility, B utility, Model E, Transit Connect
• Cuautitlán and Hermosillo

If Model E is leaving Flat Rock and move to Mexico, I think that means something originally slated for Mexico has to move to Flat Rock (or elsewhere). Or something on the bubble got cancelled... like Transit Connect or B utility.

 

This is why cancelling San Luis Potosi is a strategic mistake. Ford may or may not need it for Focus but it probably could have used it for something else.

[2b2]

Footballfan, on 08 Dec 2017 - 08:00 AM, said]:

This article made reference to a fourth vehicle at Flat Rock too:

 

"Separate from its electric and autonomous vehicle plans, Ford also plans to introduce a fourth vehicle to be built at Flat Rock in the next few years."

 

https://www.freep.co...rock/930008001/

 

My guess is MKZ's successor moves there alongside Conti.

does ANYone other than a media-critter think they know what the 3rd vehicle is??

 

just sayin'...

Edited December 8, 2017 by 2b2

[rmc523]

this is the first of the pull backs with board and chief executive level image baased products,

the reality is that no one knows whether autonomous vehicles for ride share networks will be

as popular as the tech companies try to insist.

 

Ford now realizes the reality that the EV Utility will be low volume and has ceded it to Cuautitlan

mostly because it will be similar size as the Fiesta....which is probably why it was never going to be

all that successful.

 

I now have serious concerns regarding the economic viability of Ford's Autonomous vehicle program.

If indeed the bulk of that production is for ride share companies, why is it being built in a high labor cost zone?

 

I took this move to mean that Fiesta is moving out of Cuautitlan, which would mean the move doesn't confirm the EV utility at Fiesta size.

[jpd80]

There are 6 possible vehicles candidates for Mexico and 2 plants:

 

• Fusion/MKZ, Escape/MKC 2nd plant, Small C utility, B utility, Model E, Transit Connect
• Cuautitlán and Hermosillo

If Model E is leaving Flat Rock and move to Mexico, I think that means something originally slated for Mexico has to move to Flat Rock (or elsewhere). Or something on the bubble got cancelled... like Transit Connect or B utility.

I thin the latter is highly probable given recent developments in China with JV EV production

 

This is why cancelling San Luis Potosi is a strategic mistake. Ford may or may not need it for Focus but it probably could have used it for something else.

Without getting political here, Ford was singled out by the President with regards to SLP plant and products like MKC being shifted

to Mexico. Not long after that we saw confirmation that MKC was not leaving LAP and the strategic withdrawal form SLP, and FRAP

expansion announced. Now that NAFTA seems to be settling down, we see Model E transferring to Cuautitlan.

 

I can't fathom the inner workings of Ford these days but to say that management blows hot and cold would be an understatement..

Edited December 8, 2017 by jpd80