Autoextremist: Ford in Free Fall

[grbeck]

The problem isn't necessarily recalls. It's the problems that don't generate a recall that alienate owners.

 

At least with a safety-related recall, the owner knows that the problem has been fixed.

 

Ford was never ordered to recall the Taurus/Sable or Windstar for the 3.8 V-6 head gaskets or the failure-prone automatics hooked up to it. Those weren't considered safety-related issues.

 

But those vehicles undoubtedly drove a lot of buyers away from the Blue Oval.

Edited May 17, 2018 by grbeck

[akirby]

Quality has driven away some Focus owners for sure, but you guys are ignoring the overall industry trends. Even the BRAND NEW accord is down and is offering big incentives. It's an industry trend affecting most brands. That has nothing to do with Ford quality.

[ZanatWork]

The problem isn't necessarily recalls. It's the problems that don't generate a recall that alienate owners.

 

At least with a safety-related recall, the owner knows that the problem has been fixed.

 

Ford was never ordered to recall the Taurus/Sable or Windstar for the 3.8 V-6 head gaskets or the failure-prone automatics hooked up to it. Those weren't considered safety-related issues.

 

But those vehicles undoubtedly drove a lot of buyers away from the Blue Oval.

That era was just plain tragic, the Troutman/Nasser combination seemed to be to limit Ford to trucks/SUVs completely by making the car offerings completely forgettable.

[ZanatWork]

You don’t think people will buy a 30-40 mpg hybrid Escape or Edge over a 25 mpg Fusion sedan if gas prices go back up?

That is a fundamental part of Ford’s plan. Where is the flaw?

 

 

You really think many will spend $10 K more for a hybrid Edge if gas prices go up? You don’t think a hybrid Malibu, Accord, or Camry that get better mileage than the hybrid Edge or Escape for far less money won’t be the choice they make? There’s the flaw.

Only if they were truly shopping for a sedan and their minds were made up...

 

...oh, and that'd be at least 2-3 years in the future, because the Fusion will be on sale that long.

[2b2]

Look at the sales reports over the last few years, for Ford and every other full-line carmaker in our market.

 

CUVs are replacing the typical car at a ridiculous rate. The Nissan Juke, the Honda HR-V, and that little crouton of a Toyota baby CUV are just the latest responses to the market...as is the Ecosport.

 

The numbers are easily found, and the headlines at auto sites have been telling this story for years, now...so I don't know how you possibly missed all the evidence.

posted before

[rperez817]

Quality has driven away some Focus owners for sure, but you guys are ignoring the overall industry trends. Even the BRAND NEW accord is down and is offering big incentives. It's an industry trend affecting most brands. That has nothing to do with Ford quality.

 

I agree about industry trends affecting nearly all automakers that sell passenger cars. Sedans especially. However, the Ford quality issues that grbeck and coupe3w mentioned do impact resale value, owner satisfaction, and nameplate prestige and reputation. In the U.S., Ford passenger cars other than Mustangs, hybrids/PHEVs, and ST/RS/Sport models rate low on those measures. That forces Ford to offer huge discounts to sell them to retail customers, or fleet dump them, or both.That worsens resale values even further. And ruins the reputations of the passenger car nameplates.

 

So both quality problems and industry trends forced Ford's hand. It's a good thing Ford is getting out of this cycle by discontinuing its U.S. market sedan models. That seems to be the best way for Ford to remain strong in the future.

[jpd80]

I'll be the first one to admit that this plan looks quite radical and closes off what was once a large chunk of business

but we've seen Ford do this in the past with ending products it did not want to supply - in 2006 it was DN101 Taurus,

a plant producing 200K of vehicles annually that was stopped because Ford couldn't make the case for continuing.

and then in 2011 we had the great BOF cull that saw Ranger, Explorer, Sport Trac, Crown Victoria GM and TC end.

 

What I'm hoping we will see is that the reduction in cars is confined to Focus/C-Max, Fiesta and Taurus/PI to make

way for Ranger/ Bronco, CD6 Explorer, Expedition and Electric vehicles like Mach 1 from Mexico.

 

As we've seen, Ford is also prone to changing plans when it suits them, so there could be more changes in store

that they either know or don't know about yet. There's a lot of factors in play here and looks like some parts aren't

completely ironed out yet. That would suggest that Ford is monitoring some areas of change to see what the market

is doing and how fast any change is occurring.

Edited May 17, 2018 by jpd80

[J-150]

I know I won't be getting an SUV of any type, I have no need for one. It's Ford's quality that drove buyers away. Take the transmission problems in the Focus for example or the spitting spark plugs in the F150, or all the recalls on the Escape. That's what hurt Ford. I know the F150 is the best selling truck but just think of all the customers that will probably never buy another one because of the quality issues. Just saying.

Luckily, the same thing is happening to Silverado and Ram owners. Ford picks up those customers

[Ron W.]

Coupe 3w, I'd quote but for whatever reason my window 7 IE11 won't let me.

You mentioned spark plugs blowing out, I have 236k on my 97 F150 5.4 ZERO plugs blown out.

The Ford repair manuals 3 books total (and yes I bought the set of off e-bay) says 14 ft. pounds torque and that's what they got.

[SoonerLS]

Coupe 3w, I'd quote but for whatever reason my window 7 IE11 won't let me.

You mentioned spark plugs blowing out, I have 236k on my 97 F150 5.4 ZERO plugs blown out.

The Ford repair manuals 3 books total (and yes I bought the set of off e-bay) says 14 ft. pounds torque and that's what they got.

Spitting plugs, or, more commonly, breaking plugs, was a known issue on the truck V8s. Obviously, it was a disaster; if it hadn't been for that, Ford might've kept the sales crown and continued increasing sales year over year since the start of the great recession.

 

Oh, wait, that's what they did anyway...

[coupe3w]

Spitting plugs, or, more commonly, breaking plugs, was a known issue on the truck V8s. Obviously, it was a disaster; if it hadn't been for that, Ford might've kept the sales crown and continued increasing sales year over year since the start of the great recession.

 

Oh, wait, that's what they did anyway...

This is only true if you only count Chevy truck sales, roll in the GMC trucks and it's a different ball game. But I know that doesn't count in the Ford stats. <wink wink>

[SoonerLS]

This is only true if you only count Chevy truck sales, roll in the GMC trucks and it's a different ball game. But I know that doesn't count in the Ford stats. <wink wink>

It doesn't count on anyone's stats. They're ranked based on brand sales.

 

And that has nothing to do with the increasing sales year over year for more than a decade now.

[grbeck]

I thought that only certain V-8s were plagued with the breaking spark plugs. And didn't it affect some Mustangs, too?

[ZanatWork]

I know that I've been able to change the plugs on my 1998 Expedition 5.4 without incident for quite some time, now...because I, y'know, paid attention to service instructions....

[CurtisH]

I thought that only certain V-8s were plagued with the breaking spark plugs. And didn't it affect some Mustangs, too?

 

Correct. Two plugs broke when replaced in my 2005 Mustang GT 4.6 3V.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Not to say it never happened as Curtis just mentioned but I dont think it was quite as common on Mustangs as trucks.

[SoonerLS]

I thought that only certain V-8s were plagued with the breaking spark plugs. And didn't it affect some Mustangs, too?

That's possible, but as with the EcoBoost problems some drivers had in the F-150, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of clothing on the Interwebs, but it has had no appreciable negative effect on the sales numbers, which is what counts in the end.

[rperez817]

That's possible, but as with the EcoBoost problems some drivers had in the F-150, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of clothing on the Interwebs, but it has had no appreciable negative effect on the sales numbers, which is what counts in the end.

 

Yes sir. Despite some design flaws over the years, Ford pickup trucks have always had a pretty good reputation. And they still do. By contrast Ford's U.S. market passenger cars outside Mustangs, hi performance versions (ST/RS/Sport), and hybrids/PHEV have a reputation for being disposable and unappealing to retail new vehicle buyers.

 

Plus, pickup truck customers seem to be more brand loyal than passenger car customers. Ford is in a favorable position here. And with its sedans in North America now dumped as a lost cause, Ford can devote its resources to keeping its pickup trucks especially F-Series competitive and sales strong for years to come.

[ZanatWork]

 

Yes sir. Despite some design flaws over the years, Ford pickup trucks have always had a pretty good reputation. And they still do. By contrast Ford's U.S. market passenger cars outside Mustangs, hi performance versions (ST/RS/Sport), and hybrids/PHEV have a reputation for being disposable and unappealing to retail new vehicle buyers.

 

Plus, pickup truck customers seem to be more brand loyal than passenger car customers. Ford is in a favorable position here. And with its sedans in North America now dumped as a lost cause, Ford can devote its resources to keeping its pickup trucks especially F-Series competitive and sales strong for years to come.

GM truck fans had to endure their share of recalls, plus the serious issues that plagued the "Vortech" engines...no company is immune.

[kyle]

You dont think people will buy a 30-40 mpg hybrid Escape or Edge over a 25 mpg Fusion sedan if gas prices go back up?

 

That is a fundamental part of Fords plan. Where is the flaw?

 

What if they could buy a 50 MPG Hybrid Fusion instead? Why not give them the option of buying both?

[CurtisH]

Not to say it never happened as Curtis just mentioned but I dont think it was quite as common on Mustangs as trucks.

In the interest of full disclosure, the car had over 146,000 miles when the plugs were changed. And yes, I should have changed them sooner.

[coupe3w]

In the interest of full disclosure, the car had over 146,000 miles when the plugs were changed. And yes, I should have changed them sooner.

You've all heard the saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well for the longest time the spark plugs weren't broke and Ford went and changed it, and broke it. Couldn't just leave well enough alone. I hate when they do stupid stuff like that. And they did the same thing with the transmission in the Focus.

[rperez817]

What if they could buy a 50 MPG Hybrid Fusion instead? Why not give them the option of buying both?

 

For the folks who want to keep fuel consumption very low, a plug-in hybrid utility or multi purpose vehicle could deliver 60+ MPGe easily.

 

Also on the higher end of the MPG scale, the cost savings from increased MPG diminish. This is the "MPG illusion". So going from an old 20 MPG car to a 30 MPG hybrid utility vehicle results in greater fuel cost savings than going from a vehicle that gets 30 MPG to one that gets 40 MPG.

 

[jpd80]

Fuel economy is only a concern to most buyers when it hurts their hip pocket.

Most expect manufacturers to evolve their vehicles and include good fuel economy as as standard feature

and i think that this is the one big draw back to electrification, especially when gas prices and interest rates

have been so low for so long.

 

Reality will bite with rising gas prices and interest rates but as always, human nature will dictate that most

truck and Utility buyers will expect manufacturers to change and offer them more efficient versions of their

current vehicles, rather than force them to seek refuge in compact and mid sized cars.

 

The reason not much has been said about Fusion is that Ford is probably watching to see what actually

happens this year and the next and whether something needs to be added back into the vehicle mix

to cover remaining car needs.- it's a vehicle size worth watching.

Edited May 18, 2018 by jpd80

[akirby]

What if they could buy a 50 MPG Hybrid Fusion instead? Why not give them the option of buying both?

Because the cost of continuing to make sedans isn’t worth the ROI and they’d rather use the resources and capacity for utilities which are growing.

 

it’s not a question of could they sell a hybrid sedan - of course they could. But which would be the better investment for the future?

 

More people are already choosing utilities over sedans - no reason to think that won’t continue with hybrids.