silvrsvt Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 http://www.autonews.com/article/20180701/RETAIL01/180709981/ford-fusion-sedan-sales?X-IgnoreUserAgent=1 "As good of a product as Fusion has been for us, that C-D segment has declined dramatically, in breathtaking fashion, and it's accelerated over the past couple years," Mark LaNeve, Ford's vice president of U.S. marketing, sales and service, told Automotive News. Sales of the Fusion peaked at 306,860 in 2014, according to the Automotive News Data Center. They've fallen every year since, to 209,623 in 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 There are two issues that affected Ford Fusion. 1. Industrywide problem. Sedan sales have decreased a lot over the past 4 years. LaNeve is right. 2. Ford specific problem. Fusion was probably the best sedan Ford ever made for the U.S. market in the 21st century. Especially the hybrid and Energi versions. But it was never the best product in its class. And Ford didn't keep Fusion updated as competitors were refreshed or redesigned. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) Toyota Camry was never best-in-class, it has much more to do with specific customer needs, brand reputation, customer loyalty, and value. Once the segment started collapsing and Fusion's newer and less loyal customers found alternatives, they were gone quickly. That probably combines with the fact that Ford probably overspent on a product that would eventually be sold to a customer who only wanted the cheapest sedan they could find. Midsize sedans are dirt cheap now, but they aren't cheaper to make...and people still don't buy them. It's just a completely obsolete form-factor, it's a poor value because it has a fraction of the utility of a comparably priced utility. Unless you're buying entirely for style and performance, there is just no way forward there, that's not what people buy midrange sedans for anyway. Edited October 25, 2018 by Assimilator 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Profits, profits, profits = TRUCKS get use to it it's not going to change anytime soon. Thank God I got to grow up when it was all about cars and HP. The future is very dim for real car enthusiast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 The future is very dim for real car enthusiast. Only if you are a sedan enthusiast. If you are an automobile enthusiast, I think there are some very exciting times ahead. As a Ford enthusiast, with the Bronco, Bronco II (sorry, had to do it), new Explorer, Aviator, Mach 1, and a whole bunch of new SUV's coming, plus hybridization and electrification of everything, I think it's very exciting! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) Only if you are a sedan enthusiast. If you are an automobile enthusiast, I think there are some very exciting times ahead. As a Ford enthusiast, with the Bronco, Bronco II (sorry, had to do it), new Explorer, Aviator, Mach 1, and a whole bunch of new SUV's coming, plus hybridization and electrification of everything, I think it's very exciting! I hear ya, but those aren't cars, those are trucks. I don't want a truck! And Ford is trying to force me into one. I want a car, so I have to shop elsewhere. Edited October 25, 2018 by coupe3w Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) I hear ya, but those aren't cars, those are trucks. I don't want a truck! And Ford is trying to force me into one. I want a car, so I have to shop elsewhere. . I hear that VW has some nice offerings....just kiddin' with ya, seriously, if you seek a four door sedan, look at a Mazda6 Edited October 25, 2018 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 But it was never the best product in its class. And Ford didn't keep Fusion updated as competitors were refreshed or redesigned. That doesn't explain the drop from 2014 to 2017 though. That was definitely a contributor after 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I hear ya, but those aren't cars, those are trucks. I don't want a truck! And Ford is trying to force me into one. I want a car, so I have to shop elsewhere. You keep saying trucks but it's not just trucks. Escape and Baby Bronco combined will probably sell close to 30K per month - far more than Fusion. And at higher prices. It's about selling what's popular (utilities and trucks) OR selling things that are more unique and don't have as much bottom dweller competition like the Focus active. The volume sedan market is simply saturated with competitors who don't mind price wars. I realize it's disappointing if you're a Ford fan but there are literally dozens of good choices out there now - and they're cheap. Besides, Fusion isn't going away for at least a couple more years so you have time to put your money where your mouth is and go buy one now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I hear ya, but those aren't cars, those are trucks. I don't want a truck! And Ford is trying to force me into one. I want a car, so I have to shop elsewhere. Escape, Corsair, Edge, MKX, Baby Bronco, Explorer, Aviator, and the new "white space" vehicles are not trucks. They are just station wagons with mild lifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Profits, profits, profits = TRUCKS get use to it it's not going to change anytime soon. Thank God I got to grow up when it was all about cars and HP. The future is very dim for real car enthusiast. Only if you are a sedan enthusiast. If you are an automobile enthusiast, I think there are some very exciting times ahead. As a Ford enthusiast, with the Bronco, Bronco II (sorry, had to do it), new Explorer, Aviator, Mach 1, and a whole bunch of new SUV's coming, plus hybridization and electrification of everything, I think it's very exciting! Lincoln will still offer a sedan or two, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Lincoln will still offer a sedan or two, right? I think is all still up in the air at this point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I think they'll offer at least one CD6 sedan and one was definitely in the works, but whether it survives or not is anybody's guess at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 You keep saying trucks but it's not just trucks. Escape and Baby Bronco combined will probably sell close to 30K per month - far more than Fusion. And at higher prices. It's about selling what's popular (utilities and trucks) OR selling things that are more unique and don't have as much bottom dweller competition like the Focus active. The volume sedan market is simply saturated with competitors who don't mind price wars. I realize it's disappointing if you're a Ford fan but there are literally dozens of good choices out there now - and they're cheap. Besides, Fusion isn't going away for at least a couple more years so you have time to put your money where your mouth is and go buy one now. I question if it can be deamed a success if bronc and escape only move 15k units each per month...those numbers to me would force me to reconsider if escape needs dropped or serious cash infusion to redesign.....bronc like mustang is such an iconic name moving 5k units each per month is worth the brand image... escape sales as of now should worry ford..they are not good and may fore tell some economic pain to come or ford just may have an out of trend small suv and people are shopping elsewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) The CD6 Continental was cancelled, that's all I know. It's that cancellation that started the Continental cancellation news. Nobody I know at Ford knows anything about new Lincoln sedans, only new Lincoln utilities, no evidence of Lincoln sedans on the schedules. But the dealers were told a new sedan is coming....so I can't assume anything now. I think you can parse the language because the dealers were teased a sedan design in a presentation, they weren't told a new MKZ/Continental etc. was on the way. Lincoln also categorizes it's 4 new nameplates as "Utilities", but they've changed that to "Vehicles". You have to look for the clues where you can Either way, I'm not counting on anything until it shows up. Lincoln is probably changing their product plans moving forward and they can't be definitive. China is a big uncertainty right now, Lincoln can't find the production floorspace with tariffs in place so they may end up scraping or regionalizing their products. So we could see a Chinese only Lincoln sedan. I know China is getting a 2022 small utility which is intended for US export, but I doubt they are moving ahead with US plans. Lincoln is just a money loosing operation right now, we could be running on existing projects while scaling back the next ones to get costs under control while addressing Chinese uncertainty. And now the market is heading toward decline which is bad timing. I still have my doubts on Lincoln's viability or Ford's enthusiasm for it. I hope Aviator and Corsair really shine...Aviator for sure. Corsair....eh...we'll see. Edited October 25, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I hear ya, but those aren't cars, those are trucks. I don't want a truck!Speaking as a truck guy, those are cars, not trucks. Except for the Bronco. If it doesn't have a frame, it's not a truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) I question if it can be deamed a success if bronc and escape only move 15k units each per month...those numbers to me would force me to reconsider if escape needs dropped or serious cash infusion to redesign.....bronc like mustang is such an iconic name moving 5k units each per month is worth the brand image... escape sales as of now should worry ford..they are not good and may fore tell some economic pain to come or ford just may have an out of trend small suv and people are shopping elsewhere He meant 30k EACH, I think. The CD6 Continental was cancelled, that's all I know. It's that cancellation that started the Continental cancellation news. Nobody I know at Ford knows anything about new Lincoln sedans, only new Lincoln utilities, no evidence of Lincoln sedans on the schedules. But the dealers were told a new sedan is coming....so I can't assume anything now. I think you can parse the language because the dealers were teased a sedan design in a presentation, they weren't told a new MKZ/Continental etc. was on the way. Lincoln also categorizes it's 4 new nameplates as "Utilities", but they've changed that to "Vehicles". You have to look for the clues where you can Either way, I'm not counting on anything until it shows up. Lincoln is probably changing their product plans moving forward and they can't be definitive. China is a big uncertainty right now, Lincoln can't find the production floorspace with tariffs in place so they may end up scraping or regionalizing their products. So we could see a Chinese only Lincoln sedan. I know China is getting a 2022 small utility which is intended for US export, but I doubt they are moving ahead with US plans. Lincoln is just a money loosing operation right now, we could be running on existing projects while scaling back the next ones to get costs under control while addressing Chinese uncertainty. And now the market is heading toward decline which is bad timing. I still have my doubts on Lincoln's viability or Ford's enthusiasm for it. I hope Aviator and Corsair really shine...Aviator for sure. Corsair....eh...we'll see. I'm guessing maybe some are white space "utilities", a la Mach 1. Speaking of which......any word on Lincoln getting a version? They'd be stupid not to. Edited October 25, 2018 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I question if it can be deamed a success if bronc and escape only move 15k units each per month...those numbers to me would force me to reconsider if escape needs dropped or serious cash infusion to redesign.....bronc like mustang is such an iconic name moving 5k units each per month is worth the brand image... escape sales as of now should worry ford..they are not good and may fore tell some economic pain to come or ford just may have an out of trend small suv and people are shopping elsewhere I said Baby Bronco (Maverick) not Bronco. I was thinking Escape would have the bulk of the sales with Maverick being on the lower end since it's going to be very stylized and rugged so that's why I was saying 30K combined - but that may be low. Don't forget you still have Ecosport or the Ecosport replacement and that will take some sales away from the other C2 utilities. I also expect Escape to go a bit upmarket with the other two filling in at the lower end. The point is they're not just cancelling cars, they're replacing them with more and newer utilities. Bronco, Baby Bronco and Aviator are brand new and don't replace any current products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I said Baby Bronco (Maverick) not Bronco. I was thinking Escape would have the bulk of the sales with Maverick being on the lower end since it's going to be very stylized and rugged so that's why I was saying 30K combined - but that may be low. Don't forget you still have Ecosport or the Ecosport replacement and that will take some sales away from the other C2 utilities. I also expect Escape to go a bit upmarket with the other two filling in at the lower end. The point is they're not just cancelling cars, they're replacing them with more and newer utilities. Bronco, Baby Bronco and Aviator are brand new and don't replace any current products. Borg keeps saying Escape has been cheapened (does that mean not upmarket like we think?). I could see 40K combined - 25-30k out of Escape, and 10-15 out of baby Bronco, with EcoSport around 5k below it, that'd be around 45k a month. I don't have time to average out a few months of data, but for September, Jeep had Renegade at 8,099, Compass at 16,525, and Cherokee at 23836, for 48,460. I could see Ford getting close with an EcoSport > Baby Bronco > Escape combo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) One thing to remember here is that Ford is counting on all of these new name plates increasing sales but has anyone stopped to think that by offering more choices to customers, Ford may in fact just split existing sales? If Ford offers a Baby Bronco and an Escape, does that mean more sales or do some Escape buyers just move to Baby Bronco? Similarly, offering new RWD Explorer and Bronco, are combined sales increased that much or will Explorer bleed sales to Bronco? See, I think it's not as easy as Ford thinks, they have spent quite a few years without serious internal competition. So now, this new found variety could possibly see customers and sales just move to new products... I'm not saying that Ford shouldn't be doing this, just to understand the possible consequences of gong back to what Mullaly would have once called unnecessary duplication. Edited October 25, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Yes he did say it was cheapened but I took that with a big ole grain of Borg salt if you know what I mean. Before Ecosport Escape was the cheapest utility. With both Ecosport and Baby Bronco underneath it they should be able to raise it up some or at least not discount it as much. I wasn't thinking they'd be selling a lot of Titaniums necessarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 One thing to remember here is that Ford is counting on all of these new name plates increasing sales but has anyone stopped to think that by offering more choices to customers, Ford may in fact just split existing sales? You're always going to split some sales, but I see Maverick attracting a different buyer. Escape getting larger should also bring in a few more new buyers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 One thing to remember here is that Ford is counting on all of these new name plates increasing sales but has anyone stopped to think that by offering more choices to customers, Ford may in fact just split existing sales? If Ford offers a Baby Bronco and an Escape, does that mean more sales or do some Escape buyers just move to Baby Bronco? Similarly, offering new RWD Explorer and Bronco, are combined sales increased that much or will Explorer bleed sales to Bronco? See, I think it's not as easy as Ford thinks, they have spent quite a few years without serious internal competition. So now, this new found variety could possibly see customers and sales just move to new products... Sure, the products will cannibalize sales, but look at Jeep - they've been able to grow sales despite adding Cherokee, Renegade, and Compass all in that similar size bracket. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 The CD6 Continental was cancelled, that's all I know. It's that cancellation that started the Continental cancellation news. Nobody I know at Ford knows anything about new Lincoln sedans, only new Lincoln utilities, no evidence of Lincoln sedans on the schedules. But the dealers were told a new sedan is coming....so I can't assume anything now. I think you can parse the language because the dealers were teased a sedan design in a presentation, they weren't told a new MKZ/Continental etc. was on the way. Lincoln also categorizes it's 4 new nameplates as "Utilities", but they've changed that to "Vehicles". You have to look for the clues where you can Either way, I'm not counting on anything until it shows up. Lincoln is probably changing their product plans moving forward and they can't be definitive. China is a big uncertainty right now, Lincoln can't find the production floorspace with tariffs in place so they may end up scraping or regionalizing their products. So we could see a Chinese only Lincoln sedan. I know China is getting a 2022 small utility which is intended for US export, but I doubt they are moving ahead with US plans. Lincoln is just a money loosing operation right now, we could be running on existing projects while scaling back the next ones to get costs under control while addressing Chinese uncertainty. And now the market is heading toward decline which is bad timing. I still have my doubts on Lincoln's viability or Ford's enthusiasm for it. I hope Aviator and Corsair really shine...Aviator for sure. Corsair....eh...we'll see. Regarding Aviator and Corsair, last week I had a long chat with the owner of a Lincoln-only Black Label dealership. Because of the quirks of his type of dealership his product sales might not be typical (for instance, the MKC is currently Lincoln's top seller volume-wise, but for this dealership it is Navigators, almost all Black Labels). But he said he expects the Aviator, for him, to outsell the Navigator 4x. And if Lincoln (and Ford) do a good job with the Corsair (and Escape) redisign I expect they will do well as it is a hot segment -- and as I mentioned earlier, the MKC has now surpassed the MKX (maybe in part due to folks waiting for the Nautilus refresh) as Lincoln's top seller. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) Sure, the products will cannibalize sales, but look at Jeep - they've been able to grow sales despite adding Cherokee, Renegade, and Compass all in that similar size bracket. It's just a different, maybe I've become so used to the Mulally stripped down Ford that I need my eyes opened. the effect on sales by having a new Escape + Baby Bronco and New Explorer + Bronco may be massive... Edited October 25, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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