Ford doubles electric vehicle investment to $22 billion through 2025

[silvrsvt]

https://electrek.co/2021/02/04/ford-doubles-electric-vehicle-investment-22-billion-through-2025/

[rperez817]

Looks like Ford is following the lead of its fellow U.S. automakers Tesla and GM to go "all in" with electric vehicles. This is great news. Hopefully Ford does an "EV Day" event soon for media and investors to provide more details about its BEV strategy.

 

"The CEO claimed that Ford is “all in and will not cede ground to anyone” in the electrification race."

[AGR]

Can we just copy and paste all the anti-EV posts from the GM thread, or since it's Ford we're talking about now, it's OK?

[akirby]

26 minutes ago, AGR said:

Can we just copy and paste all the anti-EV posts from the GM thread, or since it's Ford we're talking about now, it's OK?

Huge difference between Ford doubling EV investment over the next 4 years and GM saying it will be 100% EV in 14 years.

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Huge difference between Ford doubling EV investment over the next 4 years and GM saying it will be 100% EV in 14 years.

 

Sure, in that sense GM (and Tesla) are ahead of Ford for the time being. But when Jim Farley says Ford is "all in" with EV, I trust that he will lead Ford toward the same goal as GM's. 100% electric vehicles within the next 15 years. Farley is a good businessman and knows that anything less means Ford's ability to survive long term will be at risk.

Edited February 5, 2021 by rperez817

[snooter]

Ford will merge before then

[FR739]

3 hours ago, AGR said:

Can we just copy and paste all the anti-EV posts from the GM thread, or since it's Ford we're talking about now, it's OK?

No it’s still extremely short sighted.  
 

We simply do not have the infrastructure for this.  And it’s not going to rapidly improve.  Plus add the range issues, the poor cold weather performance (how fitting as a large portion of the country is getting very cold over the next week), etc and it’s easy to see that ICE vehicles will continue to be the vast majority of vehicles sold.  People are not clamoring for EVs.  They see the major shortcomings.  EVs are still in the “neat little gadget” category.  The technology is getting better but it’s nowhere near where it needs to be to be sustainable.  If it was we would see much higher EV sales. 

[rmc523]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

https://electrek.co/2021/02/04/ford-doubles-electric-vehicle-investment-22-billion-through-2025/

 

I wish it'd mean we could see the Rivian Lincoln.....

 

 

---

 

Otherwise, the ignore function is getting close to being used.

[rperez817]

12 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

I wish it'd mean we could see the Rivian Lincoln.....

 

It's quite possible that a Rivian based Lincoln or Ford branded vehicle will be announced before the end of 2021. When Ford announced in April 2020 that it was cancelling the Rivian based Lincoln electric SUV, it also said "Our strategic commitment to Lincoln, Rivian and electrification remains unchanged and Lincoln’s future plans will include an all-electric vehicle". Ford and Lincoln cancel Rivian-powered electric vehicle due to the pandemic - The Verge

 

Expect announcements related to the Rivan-Ford collaboration later in 2021. Ford isn't about to squander the opportunities that working with Rivian provides them. This partnership is vital to Ford.

[Footballfan]

https://news.alphastreet.com/ford-motor-co-f-q4-2020-earnings-call-transcript/

 

[Footballfan]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

Huge difference between Ford doubling EV investment over the next 4 years and GM saying it will be 100% EV in 14 years.

GM said it "aspires" to be 100% zero emissions and plans to bank credits for the vehicles that remain ICE.  14 years is an eternity.  By that time Barra will be long gone, and perhaps her successor.  Technology changes and carbon capture for ICE vehicles and clean fuels are being worked on as we speak.  Remember at the end of the day, smart OEMs will offer the customer what they want and pull the political strings to do so.  If GM and Ford don't other competitors will. 

[Footballfan]

1 hour ago, FR739 said:

No it’s still extremely short sighted.  
 

We simply do not have the infrastructure for this.  And it’s not going to rapidly improve.  Plus add the range issues, the poor cold weather performance (how fitting as a large portion of the country is getting very cold over the next week), etc and it’s easy to see that ICE vehicles will continue to be the vast majority of vehicles sold.  People are not clamoring for EVs.  They see the major shortcomings.  EVs are still in the “neat little gadget” category.  The technology is getting better but it’s nowhere near where it needs to be to be sustainable.  If it was we would see much higher EV sales. 

I agree.  Remember in the late 1970s we were told diesel engines would power all of our cars?  Or in the early 1980s when GM moves to an almost exclusively front wheel drive lineup that ended in disaster. Ford woke up before it was too late, but the Taurus/Sable/Continental were supposed to be their largest cars and Mustang was going FWD?  Or even 10 years ago when we were told small cars are in and the Big Three closed or converted truck plants to small cars only to convert them back?  

 

There are three things that will have to happen before Evs will upend ICE vehicles.  1)  they will cost no more than a comparable ICE vehicle at purchase, 2) they will have to have just as much if not more range than a ICE vehicle, 3) they will have to recharge just as fast as an ICE vehicle. 

 

[Harley Lover]

It will be interesting to see where around the globe this investment is taken. It could be argued that the markets with the most pressing need (from the stand point of immediate government intervention in the form of pushing EV sales) are China and Europe. I know Ford have access to VW's EV chassis for 100,00 units per year in Europe, and have several JV's in China, but I wonder nonetheless if that added investment between now and 2025 will go more towards those markets due to more immediate need.

[Trailhiker]

So I guess all the plastic parts ( made from petroleum) in vehicles does not count in the carbon neutral formula companies and countries are spouting .

I agree with Footballfan about false promises made in the past. (I remember in the 70's when we were headed for another ice age! and were promised perpetual motion)

Electric cars are here and in the future, but I don't see it being 100%, and I wouldn't be surprised  if something else comes along that replaces it in the near future.

Electric cars with battery packs will have no where near the length of market domination that ICE has had.

[silvrsvt]

8 hours ago, Footballfan said:

There are three things that will have to happen before Evs will upend ICE vehicles.  1)  they will cost no more than a comparable ICE vehicle at purchase, 2) they will have to have just as much if not more range than a ICE vehicle, 3) they will have to recharge just as fast as an ICE vehicle. 

 

The thing is that most of that is true already when it comes to BEVs...not to mention that you can charge at home easily at night offsets the need to fill up in while going some place instead. 

 

The only major draw back is a long distance trip...that might happen a few times a year, if that.

 

 

 

[Gurgeh]

9 hours ago, Footballfan said:

GM said it "aspires" to be 100% zero emissions and plans to bank credits for the vehicles that remain ICE.  14 years is an eternity. 

Not an eternity in the capital intensive world of automobile development. 14 years ago was the year the financial crisis hit.

 

Here's a link to a WSJ article on this topic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/ford-becomes-an-unlikely-tech-darling-11612528836

Edited February 5, 2021 by Gurgeh

[akirby]

26 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The thing is that most of that is true already when it comes to BEVs...not to mention that you can charge at home easily at night offsets the need to fill up in while going some place instead. 

 

The only major draw back is a long distance trip...that might happen a few times a year, if that.

 

Don't forget there are large numbers of people who can't charge at home (apartments/condos/town homes/older homes).  This will change over time but not overnight.

[FordBuyer]

13 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Sure, in that sense GM (and Tesla) are ahead of Ford for the time being. But when Jim Farley says Ford is "all in" with EV, I trust that he will lead Ford toward the same goal as GM's. 100% electric vehicles within the next 15 years. Farley is a good businessman and knows that anything less means Ford's ability to survive long term will be at risk.

GM so far is all talk. They don't even have a decent hybrid to sell, and the Bolt is hardly a Tesla fighter. And the Mach E is on the road and still waiting for the Cadillac BEV. Furthermore, the BEV Hummer is priced over $100,000 meaning very low volume. Seems to me GM needs to do basics first like plug in hybrids to intro ev power to their customers. Ford will have 3 plugins on the road this year with Escape, Corsair, and Aviator.

[rperez817]

17 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

Seems to me GM needs to do basics first like plug in hybrids to intro ev power to their customers. Ford will have 3 plugins on the road this year with Escape, Corsair, and Aviator.

 

PHEV can help automakers meet regulatory compliance requirements such as CAFE in the U.S. and Euro 7 in Europe short term. However, longer term PHEV is not an appropriate substitute for BEV and is a drain on automakers' capital budgets. One research study in Europe said "Plug-in hybrids are fake electric cars, built for lab tests and tax breaks, not real driving".

 

This is where GM did the right thing. By cancelling all hybrid and PHEV projects, they were able to re-allocate those resources to BEV projects, thereby bringing BEV products to market faster. Jim Farley's statement that Ford is now "all in" with BEV suggests that Ford may follow GM's lead.

[bzcat]

16 hours ago, akirby said:

Huge difference between Ford doubling EV investment over the next 4 years and GM saying it will be 100% EV in 14 years.

 

I think they are functionally equivalent statements. Ford may still invest in another generation of ICE F-150 but 14 years is 2-generations away... I can't imagine Ford still developing any ICE vehicles by 2031 or 32 (for sale in 2035, 14 years from now).

Edited February 5, 2021 by bzcat

[akirby]

1 minute ago, bzcat said:

 

I think they are functionally equivalent statements. Ford may still invest in another generation of ICE F-150 but 14 years is 2-generations away... I can't imagine Ford still developing any ICE vehicles by 2031 or 32 (for sale in 2035, 14 years from now).

 

I'm not disagreeing with the end result.  I'm saying there is a difference in saying we're going to change our investment direction and commitment for the next few years and making a statement about where you'll end up in 14 years.   There are far too many unknowns and variables to accurately predict where the technology and market will be in 14 years.  Even business plans that look out 5 years are rarely right.   They should have just stopped at the "we're investing huge dollars in EVs" like Ford did.  

[bzcat]

1 minute ago, akirby said:

 

I'm not disagreeing with the end result.  I'm saying there is a difference in saying we're going to change our investment direction and commitment for the next few years and making a statement about where you'll end up in 14 years.   There are far too many unknowns and variables to accurately predict where the technology and market will be in 14 years.  Even business plans that look out 5 years are rarely right.   They should have just stopped at the "we're investing huge dollars in EVs" like Ford did.  

 

Agree 100%

 

Ford's statement is a lot more concrete commitment to EV than GM's goals. Ford is offering a roadmap while GM is offering a vision. They may both get there but there is a lot more meat on Ford's plate.

 

Just looking at the product portfolio and the dizzying speed of EV adoption in EU and China, seems clear Ford won't be putting any more money on another generation of ICE cars, vans and CUVs after the current batch of ICE vehicles under development goes on sales by 2022/23. So trucks and SUVs are the only product portfolio that will see ICE-centric replacement by the mid to late 2020s. This jives with the doubling of EV investments in the next 4 years - to replace B2, C2, CD6, and vans with EVs. 

 

Forthcoming ICE vehicles (the last ones in development)

2022 S650 Mustang

2022 C2 Maverick

2022 C2 Mondeo 

2022 T6 Ranger/Everest

2022 B2 EcoSport (seems to have been cancelled)

2022 B2-E CUV developed in Brazil intended to be Territory replacement (this may or may not have been canceled)

2023 Transit Custom (will also spawn a VW Transporter)

2024 F-series superduty

2028? F-150/Expedition/Navigator (this one is just a guess but I think it is probably already approved)

 

 

 

[akirby]

5 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

Agree 100%

 

Ford's statement is a lot more concrete commitment to EV than GM's goals. Ford is offering a roadmap while GM is offering a vision. They may both get there but there is a lot more meat on Ford's plate.

 

Just looking at the product portfolio and the dizzying speed of EV adoption in EU and China, seems clear Ford won't be putting any more money on another generation of ICE cars, vans and CUVs after the current batch of ICE vehicles under development goes on sales by 2022/23. So trucks and SUVs are the only product portfolio that will see ICE-centric replacement by the mid to late 2020s. This jives with the doubling of EV investments in the next 4 years - to replace B2, C2, CD6, and vans with EVs. 

 

Forthcoming ICE vehicles (the last ones in development)

2022 S650 Mustang

2022 C2 Maverick

2022 C2 Mondeo 

2022 T6 Ranger/Everest

2022 B2 EcoSport (seems to have been cancelled)

2022 B2-E CUV developed in Brazil intended to be Territory replacement (this may or may not have been canceled)

2023 Transit Custom (will also spawn a VW Transporter)

2024 F-series superduty

2028? F-150/Expedition/Navigator (this one is just a guess but I think it is probably already approved)

 

 

 

 

What about the next gen Nautilus?   I thought it would be C2 with HEV and PHEV?   Or do you think it will be EV only?

[bzcat]

2023 or 24 Edge and Nautilus will be EV only I think. 

[akirby]

6 minutes ago, bzcat said:

2023 or 24 Edge and Nautilus will be EV only I think. 

 

But why import from China and not build it at OAP?   That's the confusing part.