Ford delays Explorer, Aviator EVs

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

The weak spot in the Mustang Mach-E lineup is the base Select model. The Select Mach-E's are mostly sitting in dealership inventory and not moving. It's the higher end models with the extended range battery that customers are choosing and willing to pay the price for. 

Thank you for pointing that out,

I just checked nationwide Mach E stock and found that just under half are  Select. If what you say is accurate, then Ford needs to change its trim mix pronto and start concentrating on the models that most buyers want……In the first year, we can forgive Ford for not knowing exactly which trims people want but they should have a better idea by now, otherwise they’re just wasting precious resources……

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

 

The 200,000+ units is from Mexico alone. It doesn't include China production.That's the huge thing. Ford could see 300,000 Mach-E sales per year.

 

That would be huge.

 

Also worth noting that the Mexican plant NEVER saw these volumes with the Fiesta. 

Correct, I just saw Farley’s tweet, that is just sensational if Ford can get those sales.

Who knows,

 

if they start building a few more in RHD, they might get a big surprise…….. 

Silent sales of Tesla in Australia alone are above 1,000/mth.

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by jpd80

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

I see this as an adjustment to meet demand for current product while spooling up for future product.

 

The other thing is that people have to quit expecting the auto industry to turn on a dime when it comes to making changes. It takes at least 36 months or so to get everything lineup and in production, and that is for something simple like a soft change like a bumper or grill. 

 

Current ICE products are getting MCE changes in the next 12-24 months and will still be in production for at least another five years or so....so we are still looking at 2027 or so before they go away. BEV related products will be out in the next 36 months or less that will be transitional products till full conversion happens around 2030.

Your making it out like the Bronco won't have a ICE engine in 5 years...it will, but the next gen in 2028 or so most likely won't. 

 

Still lots of things have to happen in the next 5 years or so-like investing in more battery plants and better battery designs. 

What we are seeing is an acceleration of existing and near production BEVs, Ford has chosen to answer buyers now and go hard with Mach E and Lightning, knowing full well that it will be straining battery supplies for everything it can get.

 

If Ford ever needed a good leader, they found it in the quick responding Jim Farley, he really has his finger on the pulse with making changes that will reap benefits. Sure it’s disappointing to see Explorer go backwards by eighteen months but to push on and not do that would be a recipe for disaster by disappointing two sets of buyers.

 

Ford can take huge comfort in knowing that there’s a crap ton of potential EV buyers circling the airport, waiting for their products to become available, so all they have to do is get mass production in place before the turkey shoot begins…..

[Footballfan]

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

I see this as an adjustment to meet demand for current product while spooling up for future product.

 

The other thing is that people have to quit expecting the auto industry to turn on a dime when it comes to making changes. It takes at least 36 months or so to get everything lineup and in production, and that is for something simple like a soft change like a bumper or grill. 

 

Current ICE products are getting MCE changes in the next 12-24 months and will still be in production for at least another five years or so....so we are still looking at 2027 or so before they go away. BEV related products will be out in the next 36 months or less that will be transitional products till full conversion happens around 2030.

Your making it out like the Bronco won't have a ICE engine in 5 years...it will, but the next gen in 2028 or so most likely won't. 

 

Still lots of things have to happen in the next 5 years or so-like investing in more battery plants and better battery designs. 

I think everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  There is interest in EVs, no doubt, but can it be sustained to the point of 50+% of your sales?  At this point I do not want any part of an EV until 1) the vehicle costs no more to purchase than a comparable ICE vehicle; 2) the EV takes no longer to recharge than a comparable ICE vehicle- and that includes me not having to go on a scavenger hunt to find a charging station; 3) the EV is just as refined as a ICE vehicle in terms of drivability.  

 

IMHO I feel that ICE vehicles will be available to purchase for at least 30 years, and any automaker that thinks they are going to "all electric" lineups are either incredibly ignorant or they are lying to you. 

 

The auto industry has been rife with false starts throughout history. Hopefully they learned from the past that the market will decide what is ultimately purchased. 

[rmc523]

18 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Correct and sorry for not explaining fully,  I was thinking the bigger battery and electricals

could have found their way into Explorer PHEV for a full electric version…….

 

May be a case of things not physically fitting in what's there.

 

16 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Interesting that Ford expects 200k/year production volume for MME, I’ll be keen to watch that ramp up of sales,

particularly in Europe and China……you don’t have to beat the other guy’s sales, just be profitable.

 

Yeah, that number sounds somewhat high to me, but what do I know?  A neighbor of mine recently got one, haven't talked to her about it yet, though.

 

9 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

The weak spot in the Mustang Mach-E lineup is the base Select model. The Select Mach-E's are mostly sitting in dealership inventory and not moving. It's the higher end models with the extended range battery that customers are choosing and willing to pay the price for. 

 

I think it's people looking at the range number mainly and being scared away, perhaps?

 

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

What we are seeing is an acceleration of existing and near production BEVs, Ford has chosen to answer buyers now and go hard with Mach E and Lightning, knowing full well that it will be straining battery supplies for everything it can get.

 

If Ford ever needed a good leader, they found it in the quick responding Jim Farley, he really has his finger on the pulse with making changes that will reap benefits. Sure it’s disappointing to see Explorer go backwards by eighteen months but to push on and not do that would be a recipe for disaster by disappointing two sets of buyers.

 

Ford can take huge comfort in knowing that there’s a crap ton of potential EV buyers circling the airport, waiting for their products to become available, so all they have to do is get mass production in place before the turkey shoot begins…..

 

I'd rather have them delay slightly (relatively speaking) and get it right than rush out and have issues.  The last thing they need are more issues with Explorer/Aviator.

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

May be a case of things not physically fitting in what's there.

Yeah, that number sounds somewhat high to me, but what do I know? A neighbour of  mine recently got one,  haven’t talked about it yet, though.

Ford is betting that by the end of 2023,  US Mach E sales will be 200k and exports to Europe will be another 100k,

leaving  no production space for BEV Explorer/Expedition that was supposed to launch right about that time.

This is a bit of a gamble by Ford but Farley must have enough evidence to move the SUV twins……

So I wonder what happens if Mach E sales don’t expand like Ford thinks, the BEVs move regardless I guess……

 

Quote

I think it's people looking at the range number mainly and being scared away, perhaps?

I think it’s a lack of understanding of buyer needs and expectations that already applies to with Mustang Coupe sales mix. If you’re paying that much for a vehicle,  you go the extra and get what you want, budget Mustang anything just don’t sell.

 

Quote

 

I'd rather have them delay slightly (relatively speaking) and get it right than rush out and have issues.  The last thing they need are more issues with Explorer/Aviator.

As said earlier, this move is based on the strong belief that combined Mach E sales are going to take all Cuautitlan’s capacity. If that happens, there won’t be enough batteries for the SUV twins anyway, this is a safety play but also right vehicles in right plants.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

3 hours ago, Footballfan said:

I think everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  There is interest in EVs, no doubt, but can it be sustained to the point of 50+% of your sales?  At this point I do not want any part of an EV until 1) the vehicle costs no more to purchase than a comparable ICE vehicle; 2) the EV takes no longer to recharge than a comparable ICE vehicle- and that includes me not having to go on a scavenger hunt to find a charging station; 3) the EV is just as refined as a ICE vehicle in terms of drivability.  

 

What are you complaints about 3? If anything BEVs are superior to ICE counterparts in that regard.  

 

The charging issue isn't a problem-its a mindset change-you charge up when you park for the day at your house in the evening and for 80-90% usage, you'll be able to go one charge till you get home, unless your going on a 3+ hour road trip.

 

Charging stations will improve as more vehicles demand them. 

[Footballfan]

53 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

What are you complaints about 3? If anything BEVs are superior to ICE counterparts in that regard.  

 

The charging issue isn't a problem-its a mindset change-you charge up when you park for the day at your house in the evening and for 80-90% usage, you'll be able to go one charge till you get home, unless your going on a 3+ hour road trip.

 

Charging stations will improve as more vehicles demand them. 

Too much torque starting out.  Kind of like a golf cart.  Don't get me wrong, it is fun to giddy up from a dead stop, but it is not practical in everyday city driving.  Like Porshe and Stellantis, Ford and gm are going to have to find a way to integrate some sort of transmission with these vehicles. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

31 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

Too much torque starting out.  Kind of like a golf cart.  Don't get me wrong, it is fun to giddy up from a dead stop, but it is not practical in everyday city driving.  Like Porshe and Stellantis, Ford and gm are going to have to find a way to integrate some sort of transmission with these vehicles. 

Why? It's not too much to ask to adjust your driving style

[jpd80]

25 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

Too much torque starting out.  Kind of like a golf cart.  Don't get me wrong, it is fun to giddy up from a dead stop, but it is not practical in everyday city driving.  Like Porshe and Stellantis, Ford and gm are going to have to find a way to integrate some sort of transmission with these vehicles. 

Porsche doesn’t use a two speed gearbox for the reason you think, it uses high gear to get to 160 mph

and Stellantis uses EDMs, electric drive modules so that mother,gearbox and inverters are packaged

as modules that can be fitted into as many multiple vehicle configuration  as possible 

 

I don’t know your experience with electric vehicles but if it’s limited to golf carts, then I suggest that

you go try a Tesla or MME, they might change your point of view.

[Footballfan]

16 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Porsche doesn’t use a two speed gearbox for the reason you think, it uses high gear to get to 160 mph

and Stellantis uses EDMs, electric drive modules so that mother,gearbox and inverters are packaged

as modules that can be fitted into as many multiple vehicle configuration  as possible 

 

I don’t know your experience with electric vehicles but if it’s limited to golf carts, then I suggest that

you go try a Tesla or MME, they might change your point of view.

Did drive a Bolt.  

[Footballfan]

19 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Why? It's not too much to ask to adjust your driving style

At the risk of sounding cocky, I should not have to adjust my driving style when I shell out $50k plus for a vehicle.  The only difference I should feel as a buyer is less noise coming from the powertrain. Also, some sort of transmission-or equivalent- is likely to improve range. 

[jpd80]

13 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

Did drive a Bolt.  

Go help you…..LOL

[jpd80]

11 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

At the risk of sounding cocky, I should not have to adjust my driving style when I shell out $50k plus for a vehicle.  The only difference I should feel as a buyer is less noise coming from the powertrain. Also, some sort of transmission-or equivalent- is likely to improve range. 

No it’s won’t, more gears means more friction, direct drive is the most energy efficient

[fuzzymoomoo]

20 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

At the risk of sounding cocky, I should not have to adjust my driving style when I shell out $50k plus for a vehicle.  The only difference I should feel as a buyer is less noise coming from the powertrain. Also, some sort of transmission-or equivalent- is likely to improve range. 

So if you buy a $1M+ Bugatti that means you should drive it full throttle all the time then? Every car has a learning curve and no 2 cars can be driven the same way. Don't believe me? Go drive a FWD Fusion then an AWD one and tell me you can drive it the same way. 

[jpd80]

One thing for sure, until BEVs start delivering significant profit, ICE trucks and SUVs will have to continue doing the heavy lifting with financial support, no one here is denying that. Ford won’t give  up ICEs as primary profit earners until sufficient buyers switch to electric vehicles but that change must be allowed to happen and grow, it is the future. I just hope that Ford can work both sides of the street.

 

and Tesla would kill to have $30 billion to drop on new infrastructure and vehicles, that is where Ford and GM will make up massive ground on Tesla……

Edited December 12, 2021 by jpd80

[twintornados]

10 hours ago, Footballfan said:

At the risk of sounding cocky, I should not have to adjust my driving style when I shell out $50k plus for a vehicle.  The only difference I should feel as a buyer is less noise coming from the powertrain. Also, some sort of transmission-or equivalent- is likely to improve range. 

 

Having test driven a Mach E, I can tell you that you won't have much of an adjustment...if any at all. That vehicle was amazing.

[rperez817]

19 hours ago, Footballfan said:

There is interest in EVs, no doubt, but can it be sustained to the point of 50+% of your sales? 

 

The only sustainable solution long term for automakers is BEV (or ZEV more generally) to be 100% of new vehicle sales.

[rperez817]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I just hope that Ford can work both sides of the street.

 

Don't get your hopes up jpd80 sir. If you stretch yourself across both sides of the street, you're twice as likely to get run over. In Ford's case, this is the curse that Jim Hackett spoke about almost 2 years ago, about the company continuing to straddle the old and new worlds of the automotive industry that are in conflict with each other.

Edited December 12, 2021 by rperez817

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Don't get your hopes up jpd80 sir. If you stretch yourself across both sides of the street, you're twice as likely to get run over. In Ford's case, this is the curse that Jim Hackett spoke about almost 2 years ago, about the company continuing to straddle the old and new worlds of the automotive industry that are in conflict with each other.

 

It also makes zero sense to give up profit on a vehicles that make money. Ford can keep building ICE without investing money into them for the last 5 years or so. 

 

If you don't have a good replacement for a vehicle that tows as well or even almost as well as an ICE, people won't buy it.

[akirby]

2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Don't get your hopes up jpd80 sir. If you stretch yourself across both sides of the street, you're twice as likely to get run over. In Ford's case, this is the curse that Jim Hackett spoke about almost 2 years ago, about the company continuing to straddle the old and new worlds of the automotive industry that are in conflict with each other.

They are not in conflict as we’re seeing with F150 Lightning.  And there is no conflict with keeping existing ICE vehicles as long as you have the factory capacity and you’re not developing new ICE powertrains.  And killing ICE when it still comprises 90%+ o market is just stupid.

[rmc523]

18 hours ago, Footballfan said:

Too much torque starting out.  Kind of like a golf cart.  Don't get me wrong, it is fun to giddy up from a dead stop, but it is not practical in everyday city driving.  Like Porshe and Stellantis, Ford and gm are going to have to find a way to integrate some sort of transmission with these vehicles. 

 

You do realize you don't need to push the pedal to the floor to make it go, right?  Lol.  EVs, while having more torque, work just like normal vehicles - if you push the pedal lightly, you get regular acceleration.

 

And it's no different than if you bought a more powerful vehicle vs. your last vehicle - you'd have to adjust to the additional power it has vs. what you're used to.

 

And if it's THAT bad, put it in Eco (or Recharge or whatever it's called) mode that limits what you get.

Edited December 12, 2021 by rmc523

[Trader 10]

On 12/10/2021 at 4:57 PM, bzcat said:

 

They were unprepared by the almost insatiable demand for Mach E. So make sense to delay new products while they work on filling demand for existing products. 

It’s Ford’s only option once they determined they had to go back to the drawing board with the EV Explorer/Aviator. 

[Footballfan]

35 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

You do realize you don't need to push the pedal to the floor to make it go, right?  Lol.  EVs, while having more torque, work just like normal vehicles - if you push the pedal lightly, you get regular acceleration.

 

And it's no different than if you bought a more powerful vehicle vs. your last vehicle - you'd have to adjust to the additional power it has vs. what you're used to.

 

And if it's THAT bad, put it in Eco (or Recharge or whatever it's called) mode that limits what you get.

 

18 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

So if you buy a $1M+ Bugatti that means you should drive it full throttle all the time then? Every car has a learning curve and no 2 cars can be driven the same way. Don't believe me? Go drive a FWD Fusion then an AWD one and tell me you can drive it the same way. 

Perhaps I did not make myself clear regarding drivability.  It seems like Stellantis git it right with this Jeep concept that uses traditional axles and transfer cases as well as a manual 6-speed transmission. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/jeeps-all-electric-wrangler-concept-has-a-six-speed-manual-transmission-122031458.html

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Footballfan

[akirby]

I don’t remember any review of any BEV complaining about too much torque off the line or the accelerator being too sensitive,