Changan Ford Takes Over Mustang Mach-E Operations in China

[akirby]

But is edge that much heavier than a MKZ hybrid?

[jasonj80]

16 hours ago, jpd80 said:

a problem they can’t seem to fix.

 

The problem with an Edge hybrid stems entirely from the CD3 platform being a lot heavier than a similar  vehicle on C2, that’s where the issue with the I-4 being underpowered starts and finishes (a 2” or 3” wider Escape could have replaced both vehicles) but Ford was looking at least changes required. In the end that RWD CD4 Edge that failed sucked up all the funding and time.

Seems to be the message at Ford lately; we have problems but can't fix them ( fired all the older more expensive experienced engineers and kept all young cheap ones who don't have any real life knowledge) We also told suppliers to use our design because it was cheaper even though they warned us there was going to be issues.

Yes weight was the problem with the Edge for both generations its very portly; was needed to meet new crash tests as the original platforms were never designed for them so the weight kept getting added to make the structure stronger. I guess people in the glass house have also finally realized what a huge hole not having the Edge in the lineup is going to be; especially with the current Explorer/Aviator issue and the new electric SUV completely bombing in style clinics. The bright side is T3, that is going to be some amazing products.

[rperez817]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

But is edge that much heavier than a MKZ hybrid?

 

Curb weight for MKZ hybrid is about 3,871 lbs. Edge curb weight is 3,927 lbs for FWD and 4,095 lbs for AWD.

[rmc523]

3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Curb weight for MKZ hybrid is about 3,871 lbs. Edge curb weight is 3,927 lbs for FWD and 4,095 lbs for AWD.

 

I was going to provide context for the regular models vs. the hybrid, and here's what I found on official Lincoln document.....I couldn't find the same for the hybrid - because according to this, that'd put some MKZ models the same weight or heavier as Edge AWD. 

 

[akirby]

Obviously a hybrid edge would be several hundred pounds heavier than a hybrid MKZ so that definitely wouldn’t work well.  Just another ripple effect of not  moving it to C2 earlier.

[Gurgeh]

At least there will still be the 2024 Nautilus on a revised C2 platform, lighter than the 2023 Nautilus even while being a tad bit longer, wider and taller. That will be FMC's only mid-sized 2-row conventional family vehicle next year in North America (excluding the excellent Bronco, as I suspect there is less, well, crossover, between the outdoor-lifestyle Bronco and the around-town-and-on-the-highway family-mover Edge/Nautilus).

[akirby]

37 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

At least there will still be the 2024 Nautilus on a revised C2 platform, lighter than the 2023 Nautilus even while being a tad bit longer, wider and taller. That will be FMC's only mid-sized 2-row conventional family vehicle next year in North America (excluding the excellent Bronco, as I suspect there is less, well, crossover, between the outdoor-lifestyle Bronco and the around-town-and-on-the-highway family-mover Edge/Nautilus).

I would love to see Louisville turned into a C2 hybrid plant.  Make Escape and Corsair hybrid only and add C2 Nautilus and Edge (NA version not the Chinese version) hybrids only with 3 shifts.  And add Bronco sport hybrid to Hermosillo.

[Harley Lover]

7 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

  and the new electric SUV completely bombing in style clinics. 

 

Not contesting your comment, but do you have more info or attribution for this?

[DeluxeStang]

7 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

Seems to be the message at Ford lately; we have problems but can't fix them ( fired all the older more expensive experienced engineers and kept all young cheap ones who don't have any real life knowledge) We also told suppliers to use our design because it was cheaper even though they warned us there was going to be issues.

Yes weight was the problem with the Edge for both generations its very portly; was needed to meet new crash tests as the original platforms were never designed for them so the weight kept getting added to make the structure stronger. I guess people in the glass house have also finally realized what a huge hole not having the Edge in the lineup is going to be; especially with the current Explorer/Aviator issue and the new electric SUV completely bombing in style clinics. The bright side is T3, that is going to be some amazing products.

Very interesting, how would you, and others such as Explorerdude describe the difference between the EV explorer and t3? It seems like both teams were given very similar directives, rethinking icons with areo driven radical design, better specs, and forward thinking tech. But it seems like the team working on t3 just executed their assignment to a might higher degree of competency. Farley has said both will be very controversial, but that's about all he said. Maybe we'll hear more with this upcoming Vegas dealer meeting. 

 

I'm just left wondering how bad this explorer ev looks. Because it seems everyone who sees it hates it. It could be a 80s Tarus/s550 situation, where it's a cool looking, but very different design that takes time to adjust to. Or it could just be hideous, like flex levels of hideous. 

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I would love to see Louisville turned into a C2 hybrid plant.  Make Escape and Corsair hybrid only and add C2 Nautilus and Edge (NA version not the Chinese version) hybrids only with 3 shifts.  And add Bronco sport hybrid to Hermosillo.

Ford could do a lot worse than condensing four C2s at Louisville, especially if BEV rollouts are going to slow or be delayed. It may be better to move  BEV Bronco to  Cuautitlan, especially if Mach E sales decline or completely evaporate in the next few years..

 

Keeping Ford Blue full of products and highly profitable is going to be key for the rest of this decade, so I wonder how long Ford will take to realise that rushing BEV rollout has come at a huge cost, stunting affordable hybrid rollout.

Edited August 10, 2023 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

I'm just left wondering how bad this explorer ev looks. Because it seems everyone who sees it hates it. It could be a 80s Tarus/s550 situation, where it's a cool looking, but very different design that takes time to adjust to. Or it could just be hideous, like flex levels of hideous. 

Apparently this is supposed to be it

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/02/is-this-a-design-mockup-for-the-next-gen-mustang-mach-e/

 

I can see it being polarizing in focus groups…the styling is being driven by design to increase range. 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Apparently this is supposed to be it

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/02/is-this-a-design-mockup-for-the-next-gen-mustang-mach-e/

 

I can see it being polarizing in focus groups…the styling is being driven by design to increase range. 

Yeah, I remember thinking that was some canned alternative design proposal when I first saw it. It looks a lot like the original mach-e design based on the shape. What's interesting is Farley was one of the main people speaking out against the original mach-e design. Now he seems to be one of the main people supporting it, assuming the designs are similar.

 

If anything, it looks even worse than this silver design sketch. At least the silver sketch has a sleek roofline, and decent line flow. The explorer roofline looks choppy with a mostly linear roof running to the second row, then angling down aggressively. It also looks like there's some weird bronco sport style droop in the beltline running below the first and second row seats, but that could be me seeing things. 

 

I know areo is important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of design. Unless the explorer ev is undercutting it's 3 row ev rivals by like 15 grand, it's gonna flop. Ford doesn't want to compete on price, but in chasing areo, they've made a design so bad that they're gonna have to stack cash on the hood just to move them off the lot. Ending up right where they started.

 

I'm sure by this point Ford execs are screaming at designers to hurry up and develop a more traditional boxy EV suv after seeing how hard this thing is flopping in focus groups. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by DeluxeStang

[Oac98]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

Yeah, I remember thinking that was some canned alternative design proposal when I first saw it. It looks a lot like the original mach-e design based on the shape. What's interesting is Farley was one of the main people speaking out against the original mach-e design. Now he seems to be one of the main people supporting it, assuming the designs are similar.

 

If anything, it looks even worse than this silver design sketch. At least the silver sketch has a sleek roofline, and decent line flow. The explorer roofline looks choppy with a mostly linear roof running to the second row, then angling down aggressively. It also looks like there's some weird bronco sport style droop in the beltline running below the first and second row seats, but that could be me seeing things. 

 

I know areo is important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of design. Unless the explorer ev is undercutting it's 3 row ev rivals by like 15 grand, it's gonna flop. Ford doesn't want to compete on price, but in chasing areo, they've made a design so bad that they're gonna have to stack cash on the hood just to move them off the lot. Ending up right where they started.

 

I'm sure by this point Ford execs are screaming at designers to hurry up and develop a more traditional boxy EV suv after seeing how hard this thing is flopping in focus groups. 

I really hope that whatever OAC is supposed to get isn’t some ugly piece of shit FLOP. The Mach-E is a great product and it’s not doing well I can’t help but be concerned. Maybe that’s why Ford has nothing to show since 2019 when these two crossover EVs were announced that have been bounced around to be built at various plants before OAC was chosen for now I guess lol. I see GM unveiling their products what the hell is going on with these????

[tbone]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Very interesting, how would you, and others such as Explorerdude describe the difference between the EV explorer and t3? It seems like both teams were given very similar directives, rethinking icons with areo driven radical design, better specs, and forward thinking tech. But it seems like the team working on t3 just executed their assignment to a might higher degree of competency. Farley has said both will be very controversial, but that's about all he said. Maybe we'll hear more with this upcoming Vegas dealer meeting. 

 

I'm just left wondering how bad this explorer ev looks. Because it seems everyone who sees it hates it. It could be a 80s Tarus/s550 situation, where it's a cool looking, but very different design that takes time to adjust to. Or it could just be hideous, like flex levels of hideous. 

I don’t understand why it has to be controversial.  I feel like a vehicle can be modernized without being a clown car.  The electric Ram concept was pretty modern looking without being offensive.  
 

I think you meant MKT level of hideous.  It was much worse in my opinion.

[tbone]

1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

I really hope that whatever OAC is supposed to get isn’t some ugly piece of shit FLOP. The Mach-E is a great product and it’s not doing well I can’t help but be concerned. Maybe that’s why Ford has nothing to show since 2019 when these two crossover EVs were announced that have been bounced around to be built at various plants before OAC was chosen for now I guess lol. I see GM unveiling their products what the hell is going on with these????

I hope for you and your coworkers sake it’s not a flop as well. If it were this design, this ugly ass, POS wouldn’t get a dime of my money, but I’m probably not the right customer for this. I see people driving Priuses every day, and I found that to be one of the ugliest design ever, right up ther with the Aztec. It’s ironic that the newest Prius isn’t that bad looking, yet you have Ford pumping this out assuming this is what it looks like. 

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

I really hope that whatever OAC is supposed to get isn’t some ugly piece of shit FLOP. The Mach-E is a great product and it’s not doing well I can’t help but be concerned. Maybe that’s why Ford has nothing to show since 2019 when these two crossover EVs were announced that have been bounced around to be built at various plants before OAC was chosen for now I guess lol. I see GM unveiling their products what the hell is going on with these????

I think the die has been cast and unfortunately, it's not looking great. As for the timing, I have no idea why it's taking so long to show Ford's future product's. I believe Farley is attending a dealer meeting in Vegas this week. There's a very good chance we get some future product details from that, but I can't say how long it'll be before Ford publicly reveals some concepts. The  Detroit auto show in September maybe. They openly stated they'd be showing the refreshed f-150,  it haven't said what the other reveal will be. Fingers crossed it's something interesting. 

[akirby]

I still think any design funkiness is being driven by aero requirements to keep down battery size and cost.  

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, tbone said:

.....I don’t understand why it has to be controversial.  I feel like a vehicle can be modernized without being a clown car......  

 

The original Taurus of 1985 was controversial and polarizing and went on to define American styling in the 1980's.  

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I still think any design funkiness is being driven by aero requirements to keep down battery size and cost.  

I think we all agree with you. Even under the tarp, you can see that design has a low front end. Having a low frontal helps to drastically reduce drag. But it looks odd on taller vehicles. 

 

Most of us think Ford has a good strategy. But the execution seems to be lacking on some of these future products. The issue is Ford doesn't want to race to the bottom with it's ev pricing. But if they're making their crossovers ugly to meet areo targets, it's gonna be harder to sell. Dealers are gonna have to beg customers to buy them.

 

If this strategy means Ford can sell it's three row for 10-15k less than other three row rivals, that's one thing. But I get the feeling it's going to be like a 3-5 grand price difference. If someone is already paying 45 grand for an explorer ev, and Mazda comes out with a more enticing product for 48 grand, most people are just gonna go with the better product that doesn't cost that much more.

 

Pricing sensitivity seems to diminish as you climb up the pricing ladder. Trying to get someone paying 17k for a new car to stretch their budget to 20 can be pretty difficult. But if you're already paying 50 or 60 grand, what's another few thousand by that point? This trying to be the value player by using smaller batteries would make a lot more sense if they tried it on an entry level EV first. 

[Oac98]

6 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I think the die has been cast and unfortunately, it's not looking great. As for the timing, I have no idea why it's taking so long to show Ford's future product's. I believe Farley is attending a dealer meeting in Vegas this week. There's a very good chance we get some future product details from that, but I can't say how long it'll be before Ford publicly reveals some concepts. The  Detroit auto show in September maybe. They openly stated they'd be showing the refreshed f-150,  it haven't said what the other reveal will be. Fingers crossed it's something interesting. 

I really hope so because it’s time Ford shows something now. It makes me think they’re constantly making changes behind the scenes. 

[Oac98]

9 hours ago, tbone said:

I hope for you and your coworkers sake it’s not a flop as well. If it were this design, this ugly ass, POS wouldn’t get a dime of my money, but I’m probably not the right customer for this. I see people driving Priuses every day, and I found that to be one of the ugliest design ever, right up ther with the Aztec. It’s ironic that the newest Prius isn’t that bad looking, yet you have Ford pumping this out assuming this is what it looks like. 

The last thing we need at OAC is a sales flop after 3 years of roughly 20 weeks a year downtime! 2023 has been the steadiest we’ve worked since 2019 with 6 down weeks only this year. We will be down for a long retool next year according to ford. It will be nice if anything we build sells. I know in  the beginning we will build and scale up my hope is that it’s maintained. Too early to worry anyways. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Oacjay98

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

The last thing we need at OAC is a sales flop after 3 years of roughly 20 weeks a year downtime! 2023 has been the steadiest we’ve worked since 2019 with 6 down weeks only this year. We will be down for a long retool next year according to ford. It will be nice if anything we build sells. I know I’m the beginning we will build and scale up my hope is that it’s maintained. Too early to worry anyways. 

Pretty sure this is coming from Ford wanting to be too much like Tesla. Just imagine, Farley looking at Tesla 3 and Y and sees how those two vehicles are so dominant  around the world , Ford would kill to have those profits off just two cars. They need to take a breath and think about their current customers and stop doing vehicles that are “statements” or trying to be Tesla me toos.

Edited August 11, 2023 by jpd80

[Oac98]

I agree and I really hope that Ford has a good plan because things are constantly evolving . Tesla is a tough competitor that’s forsure.

[Rick73]

10 hours ago, tbone said:

I see people driving Priuses every day, and I found that to be one of the ugliest design ever, right up ther with the Aztec. It’s ironic that the newest Prius isn’t that bad looking, yet you have Ford pumping this out assuming this is what it looks like. 

Not all BEVs can look like a Lotus Elise, but yeah, agree they don’t have to be hideous.

 

You're right that new Prius is much nicer looking than previous generations, though Toyota list Cd at fairly high 0.27; so maybe not a great example of what’s possible.  Some BEV models from Tesla, Mercedes and Lucid have much-lower claimed Cds around 0.20.

 

In real-world highway testing at steady 70~75 MPH, a Cd of 0.27 would be a significant anchor for BEV range compared to a competitor with only 0.20.  The new Prius looks fairly smooth, and I’m sure Toyota tried their best to lower Cd, but shows that to get down around 0.20 requires a lot of work and attention to details.  Prius is obviously not a BEV, which probably makes it more difficult to lower drag.  Anyway, Lightning and Mach-E both have much higher drag than most popular BEVs, the Tesla 3 and Y.  To what degree lower drag influences their success is anyone’s guess because it affects other variables like cost and range.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Pretty sure this is coming from Ford wanting to be too much like Tesla. Just imagine, Farley looking at Tesla 3 and Y and sees how those two vehicles are so dominant  around the world , Ford would kill to have those profits off just two cars. 

Except they’re dominating a very small market in the overall scheme which right now has a limited ceiling.  And a lot of Tesla buyers are Musk fans and may not even consider another brand right now.  
 

I agree it seems like Ford and Farley are overreacting here in an attempt to eke out the last few miles of range or last few dollars of cost and it might backfire big time.

 

But the biggest problem I see is they’re changing direction and stopping/restarting too much.  First Rivian then VW.  Either they’re making bad decisions at first or they’re chasing perfection and changing when something a little better comes along.  Sometimes you just have to say this is good enough and get it out the door.

 

Luckily it sounds like that’s not the case for T3 as you would expect.