Auto Execs Are Coming Clean, EVs Are Just Not Working...

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

As someone who owns a maverick hybrid, we looked into a sante Cruz, very briefly. I didn't hate the styling, the issue is the sante Cruz feels like it combined the worst attributes of the maverick and Ridgeline into one vehicle. It's overpriced, it has the smaller size of the maverick, but the crappy fuel economy of a Ridgeline. I just looked at it and thought why does this thing exist? The maverick has a very clear mission, the sante Cruz feels like this little freak show creature that has no appeal aside from being weird. 

 

Given who makes the Santa Cruz, I wouldn't expect anything else.Didn't they have a couple oddball truck/CUV products over the years...and to go back to ancient history, the Brat? 

 

The thing is that Ford knows trucks and knows the secret sauce to them that makes them appealing to the market. The Bronco, Bronco Sport, and Maverick are all reflection of this. I think once the new Ranger gets to the market, it will make a bigger impact then the warmed over ROW Ranger we had for the past few years. 

[DeluxeStang]

21 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Given who makes the Santa Cruz, I wouldn't expect anything else.Didn't they have a couple oddball truck/CUV products over the years...and to go back to ancient history, the Brat? 

 

The thing is that Ford knows trucks and knows the secret sauce to them that makes them appealing to the market. The Bronco, Bronco Sport, and Maverick are all reflection of this. I think once the new Ranger gets to the market, it will make a bigger impact then the warmed over ROW Ranger we had for the past few years. 

Agreed, that also carried over into my level of trust in the product's quality. Ford knows how to make reliable trucks, and reliable hybrids. I went in with the assumption that the maverick wouldn't have as many issues as the sante Cruz, and whatever issues it did have, would be fixed more proactively that the Hyundai. Because Ford doesn't mess around when it comes to the reputation, and perception of their trucks. 

 

Add in the fact that the maverick uses basically all proven components, and the sante Cruz is largely new, with things like DCTs and self leveling suspension, I was like, nah, that's all gonna break, especially on a Hyundai. Looks like I was right. The maverick has an above average reliability rating of about 70/100, whereas the sante Cruz has a rating of about 30 last time I checked. 

[ice-capades]

COMMENTARY: Electric Vehicle Agenda is Failing American Families

https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/commentary-electric-vehicle-agenda-is-failing-american-families-2935662/?utm_campaign=widget&utm_medium=latest&utm_source=opinion&utm_term=COMMENTARY%3A Electric vehicle agenda is failing American families

 

 

Las Vegas Review-Journal_2023-11-08_COMMENTARY_Electric Vehicle Agenda Failing American Families.pdf

Edited November 8, 2023 by ice-capades
Additional Content

[paintguy]

10 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Agreed, that also carried over into my level of trust in the product's quality. Ford knows how to make reliable trucks, and reliable hybrids. I went in with the assumption that the maverick wouldn't have as many issues as the sante Cruz, and whatever issues it did have, would be fixed more proactively that the Hyundai. Because Ford doesn't mess around when it comes to the reputation, and perception of their trucks. 

 

Add in the fact that the maverick uses basically all proven components, and the sante Cruz is largely new, with things like DCTs and self leveling suspension, I was like, nah, that's all gonna break, especially on a Hyundai. Looks like I was right. The maverick has an above average reliability rating of about 70/100, whereas the sante Cruz has a rating of about 30 last time I checked. 

Agree that Ford Hybrids have had a good record. Going back to original Ford Escape Hybrid, very reliable. Owned a 2009 Escape Hybrid that did everything I expected of it. Mileage right on estimates except when I really put my foot into it on interstates. Maintenance cost better than I expected. Still see some Escape Hybrid taxis on the streets. So longevity is not an issue. Ford needs to leverage their position. It has worked for Toyota. Prius sales have slowed, but almost every model has a hybrid. Using a HEV helps pave the way for BEV to develop acceptance. 

[rperez817]

11 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

The thing is that Ford knows trucks and knows the secret sauce to them that makes them appealing to the market. The Bronco, Bronco Sport, and Maverick are all reflection of this. I think once the new Ranger gets to the market, it will make a bigger impact then the warmed over ROW Ranger we had for the past few years. 

 

That's correct silvrsvt, Ford's marketing team for trucks and SUVs is the best in the industry when it comes to promoting those products based on "want" rather than "need".

 

Ford's product development and marketing teams alike need to apply that strength to electrification of trucks and SUV, and bring BEV/Lightning versions of Bronco, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Ranger, and Super Duty to market ASAP.

[Schpark]

11 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Given who makes the Santa Cruz, I wouldn't expect anything else.Didn't they have a couple oddball truck/CUV products over the years...and to go back to ancient history, the Brat? 

 

 

Actually the Brat was a Subaru, FYI.

[Oac98]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

That's correct silvrsvt, Ford's marketing team for trucks and SUVs is the best in the industry when it comes to promoting those products based on "want" rather than "need".

 

Ford's product development and marketing teams alike need to apply that strength to electrification of trucks and SUV, and bring BEV/Lightning versions of Bronco, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Ranger, and Super Duty to market ASAP.

I don’t think the technology is there yet to do any kind of BEV Super Duty type vehicle. Am I wrong?

[rperez817]

25 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

I don’t think the technology is there yet to do any kind of BEV Super Duty type vehicle. Am I wrong?

 

Based on current technology, F-250 and F-350 (Class 3) BEV is doable but for F-450 to F-750 (Classes 4-8), BEV isn't at the "sweet spot" yet among other alt-fuel options (FCEV, hybrid, CNG/RNG, etc.). But technology advancement has been very rapid with BEV. It's very likely that the BEV "sweet spot" area as depicted by the graphic below will grow significantly along both axes after 2025.

 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Schpark said:

 

Actually the Brat was a Subaru, FYI.

 

Duh yeah I got Subaru and Hyundai mixed up ?

[DeluxeStang]

11 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Duh yeah I got Subaru and Hyundai mixed up ?

Don't we all? I noticed it, but it's not a big deal. 

 

2 hours ago, paintguy said:

Agree that Ford Hybrids have had a good record. Going back to original Ford Escape Hybrid, very reliable. Owned a 2009 Escape Hybrid that did everything I expected of it. Mileage right on estimates except when I really put my foot into it on interstates. Maintenance cost better than I expected. Still see some Escape Hybrid taxis on the streets. So longevity is not an issue. Ford needs to leverage their position. It has worked for Toyota. Prius sales have slowed, but almost every model has a hybrid. Using a HEV helps pave the way for BEV to develop acceptance. 

  

Yeah, there's some debate on this, but I believe the maverick uses the same hybrid engine as those older escapes, just with a few small improvements and tweaks. Hope it stays reliable for a long time. It actually seems like the maverick has a better reliability rating than some of Ford's other trucks, believe it or not. 

[Deanh]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Based on current technology, F-250 and F-350 (Class 3) BEV is doable but for F-450 to F-750 (Classes 4-8), BEV isn't at the "sweet spot" yet among other alt-fuel options (FCEV, hybrid, CNG/RNG, etc.). But technology advancement has been very rapid with BEV. It's very likely that the BEV "sweet spot" area as depicted by the graphic below will grow significantly along both axes after 2025.

 

we were told that BEV/ hybrid heavy duty trucks wont be pursued until CAFE demands it...so, Id say that avenue is coming...they just dis-continued the Diesels in the 650s and up...

[Oac98]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Based on current technology, F-250 and F-350 (Class 3) BEV is doable but for F-450 to F-750 (Classes 4-8), BEV isn't at the "sweet spot" yet among other alt-fuel options (FCEV, hybrid, CNG/RNG, etc.). But technology advancement has been very rapid with BEV. It's very likely that the BEV "sweet spot" area as depicted by the graphic below will grow significantly along both axes after 2025.

 

I still don’t see this happening anytime soon. I know the technology is evolving quickly, Ford is probably doing research and developement on future Super Duty BEVs. 

[Deanh]

2 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

I still don’t see this happening anytime soon. I know the technology is evolving quickly, Ford is probably doing research and developement on future Super Duty BEVs. 

I heard they are testing hydrogen.....

[akirby]

38 minutes ago, Deanh said:

I heard they are testing hydrogen.....

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by akirby

[Deanh]

12 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

 

thats the face I make when someone tells me how wonderful their Tesla is....lol...the fuel cell tests make me think they are adressing a BEV weakness , long distance towing, and also makes me question if Diesel engines days are numbered..  A test fleet of eight hydrogen fuel cell Ford E-Transits will run for six-month periods over the three-year project to 2025. The test fleet data will provide insights into the total cost of owning and operating a large van with enhanced zero-emission range and uptime that matches a diesel-powered equivalent. 

[akirby]

The problems with hydrogen outside of commercial fleets are vast and have been discussed already multiple times. 

[Deanh]

9 minutes ago, akirby said:

The problems with hydrogen outside of commercial fleets are vast and have been discussed already multiple times. 

 ?...Commercial fleets is EXACTLY what this testing is targeting.....which will definitely involve their Superduty lineup...

[ice-capades]

You thinking charging an EV is bad? Try filling a hydrogen-powered car!

Living with a Toyota Mirai for a week could've gone better

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/11/08/toyota-mirai-hydrogen-refueling/

AGOURA HILLS, Calif. – You think the country’s electric charging infrastructure is bad? Try owning a hydrogen-powered car!

 

Chances are, you live in a place where that isn’t even possible, but here in California, there are indeed hydrogen filling stations dotted throughout the major metropolitan areas and, as such, cars for sale or lease that utilize hydrogen fuel cells. OK, so there’s presently just two, the Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Nexo, but the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell had been available up until 2021.

 

I got a chance to drive the Clarity on its press launch along with the first-generation Mirai (best known for frightening all who gazed upon it), but as I spent five of the last six years in Portland, Ore., and therefore outside the hydrogen infrastructure, I had not had a chance to spend a typical week-long press loan with a fuel-cell car. And I still haven’t, but we’ll get to that.

 

The current-generation Toyota Mirai dates back to model year 2021, and as anyone with functioning vision can attest, is as radical a visual departure as you can get. What was once a vaguely Prius-like lump of four-seat, front-wheel-drive hideousness emerged from a cocoon to become a long, sleek, five-seat, rear-wheel-drive luxury sedan with plenty of engineering enhancements to go with it.

 

At this point, it’s probably best to explain what exactly a hydrogen fuel cell car is. It’s broadly similar in concept to a hybrid powertrain, with an electric motor and battery pack, but with a hydrogen fuel cell instead of an internal combustion engine. The fuel cell itself is technically a collection of multiple cells where hydrogen and oxygen are chemically combined to create the electricity needed to move the car and replenish the battery (much as a Toyota hybrid’s engine does). As you might recall from basic chemistry, the byproduct of combining hydrogen (H₂) and oxygen (O) is water. No smog-causing or climate-changing emissions, just a light mist of H₂O spritzing the cars behind you when accelerating. I speak from experience – I’ve been spritzed on multiple occasions by highway-going Mirais.

 

For the most part, the Mirai drives like an electric car since the rear-mounted electric motor exclusively propells the wheels. That motor produces 182 horsepower and 221 pound-feet of torque, which isn’t that much for a large sedan that weighs 4,335 pounds. That might be less than what an all-electric vehicle of its size would weigh, but acceleration is nevertheless on the pokey side. It has the typical, immediate torque response of an EV or a series-style hybrid like various Hondas, but things really start to hit the wall as speeds increase, say, when accelerating onto the highway. I was stunned to find Motor Trend clocked a Mirai from zero to 60 mph in 6.2 seconds – it feels two seconds slower than that.

 

Besides that, the hydrogen fuel cell only emits an usual whine when being pushed, but there’s really nothing weird about driving what is a very weird car. The same can be said beyond the powertrain realm. I drove the Mirai out into the Santa Monica Mountains and it very much behaved like a large Lexus sedan since that’s exactly what it is underneath, sharing the same excellent platform as the LS and LC. You can feel the sophistication of the suspension in the way it responds to mid-corner bumps and maintains its composure around turns, but unlike the LC and to a lesser extent, the LS, there is little in the way of engagement present. There’s capability without feedback.

 

With the dynamic portion of the program out of the way, my would-be week with the Mirai transitioned to more mundane matters. Specifically, dropping my wife off at LAX 38 miles away, followed by an additional 20-mile drive to a studio location in Long Beach for a sneak-peak of the 2024 Acura TLX and 2024 Honda Ridgeline. Do the math, and I’d need at least 110 miles to make the journey. Theoretically, this should not have been a problem. Theoretically.

 

The Mirai has three carbon fiber-reinforced tanks: one behind the rear axle, another in front of it and a third running the length of the center tunnel. By the way, the battery sits above the axle while the fuel cell is up front where an engine would be. Those tanks together hold 11 pounds of hydrogen at 10,000 psi, an amount that takes five minutes to fully refuel. That would be hydrogen’s main advantage, besides weight and sourcing battery materials, over an EV. Instead of sitting in a Walmart parking lot for a half-hour (if you’re lucky) or living somewhere that has access to a plug or charger, you can pop into a gas station just as you do with a regular engine.

 

Oh, and one more advantage: cost. Owners of both the Mirai and Hyundai Nexo get $15,000 worth of hydrogen over the course of a three-year lease or six-year ownership period. At the current hydrogen price I spotted at True Zero station ($36 per kilogram), you’d theoretically be getting 83 tanks of fuel included.  

 

OK, so how far does a “tank” get you? The Mirai Limited trim I drove is good for 357 miles of range with full tanks (the XLE can do 402). So, using basic math, you could theoretically get about 30,000 miles worth of free fuel before it gets $LOL to refill. Certainly, the lease option is the better deal.

 

Again, though, theoretically. I started my time with the Mirai with only 241 miles. You see, I actually live 4.4 miles and 6 minutes away from the Thousand Oaks True Zero hydrogen refueling station, which was why I felt confident in signing up for a week in the Mirai in the first place. Unfortunately, before the car arrived, the third-party company that handles press car loans informed me that the True Zero station was not functioning. Neither was a different hydrogen station located en route to me in Sherman Oaks. They’d have to fill the car near their office, also in Long Beach, and deliver it less than full. It must be said that I should’ve had a lot more than just 241 miles of range. According to my algebra, that amount of range should’ve been the equivalent of 67% full, but the fuel gauge was barely below full. Clearly, the car wasn’t getting anywhere close to whatever fuel economy determines that official range. Or there’s something wrong with the fuel gauge. So that’s another problem.

 

After the LAX drop-off, I made the quick, 1.5-mile drive to a Clean Energy station that has a whole heap of natural gas pumps and one hydrogen pump. Too bad, it had yellow tape on it. OK, so that’s now three hydrogen stations along my route out of order. I didn’t need to refuel, but I had the time before the studio sneak peak, so what the hell?

 

Continued at link.

Edited November 8, 2023 by ice-capades
Additional Content

[akirby]

42 minutes ago, Deanh said:

 ?...Commercial fleets is EXACTLY what this testing is targeting.....which will definitely involve their Superduty lineup...

But you keep hinting it could replace BEVs.  Not happening.

[Deanh]

41 minutes ago, akirby said:

But you keep hinting it could replace BEVs.  Not happening.

not sure I specifically stated Hydrogen would replace BEVS, but I have a short term memory for some subjects...I DID state it wouldnt surprize me if a viable alternative reared its head of which Hydrogen has to be one ( synthetic gasoline was also mentioned ) 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Deanh

[Deanh]

13 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

You thinking charging an EV is bad? Try filling a hydrogen-powered car!

Living with a Toyota Mirai for a week could've gone better

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/11/08/toyota-mirai-hydrogen-refueling/

AGOURA HILLS, Calif. – You think the country’s electric charging infrastructure is bad? Try owning a hydrogen-powered car!

 

Chances are, you live in a place where that isn’t even possible, but here in California, there are indeed hydrogen filling stations dotted throughout the major metropolitan areas and, as such, cars for sale or lease that utilize hydrogen fuel cells. OK, so there’s presently just two, the Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Nexo, but the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell had been available up until 2021.

 

I got a chance to drive the Clarity on its press launch along with the first-generation Mirai (best known for frightening all who gazed upon it), but as I spent five of the last six years in Portland, Ore., and therefore outside the hydrogen infrastructure, I had not had a chance to spend a typical week-long press loan with a fuel-cell car. And I still haven’t, but we’ll get to that.

 

The current-generation Toyota Mirai dates back to model year 2021, and as anyone with functioning vision can attest, is as radical a visual departure as you can get. What was once a vaguely Prius-like lump of four-seat, front-wheel-drive hideousness emerged from a cocoon to become a long, sleek, five-seat, rear-wheel-drive luxury sedan with plenty of engineering enhancements to go with it.

 

At this point, it’s probably best to explain what exactly a hydrogen fuel cell car is. It’s broadly similar in concept to a hybrid powertrain, with an electric motor and battery pack, but with a hydrogen fuel cell instead of an internal combustion engine. The fuel cell itself is technically a collection of multiple cells where hydrogen and oxygen are chemically combined to create the electricity needed to move the car and replenish the battery (much as a Toyota hybrid’s engine does). As you might recall from basic chemistry, the byproduct of combining hydrogen (H₂) and oxygen (O) is water. No smog-causing or climate-changing emissions, just a light mist of H₂O spritzing the cars behind you when accelerating. I speak from experience – I’ve been spritzed on multiple occasions by highway-going Mirais.

 

For the most part, the Mirai drives like an electric car since the rear-mounted electric motor exclusively propells the wheels. That motor produces 182 horsepower and 221 pound-feet of torque, which isn’t that much for a large sedan that weighs 4,335 pounds. That might be less than what an all-electric vehicle of its size would weigh, but acceleration is nevertheless on the pokey side. It has the typical, immediate torque response of an EV or a series-style hybrid like various Hondas, but things really start to hit the wall as speeds increase, say, when accelerating onto the highway. I was stunned to find Motor Trend clocked a Mirai from zero to 60 mph in 6.2 seconds – it feels two seconds slower than that.

 

Besides that, the hydrogen fuel cell only emits an usual whine when being pushed, but there’s really nothing weird about driving what is a very weird car. The same can be said beyond the powertrain realm. I drove the Mirai out into the Santa Monica Mountains and it very much behaved like a large Lexus sedan since that’s exactly what it is underneath, sharing the same excellent platform as the LS and LC. You can feel the sophistication of the suspension in the way it responds to mid-corner bumps and maintains its composure around turns, but unlike the LC and to a lesser extent, the LS, there is little in the way of engagement present. There’s capability without feedback.

 

With the dynamic portion of the program out of the way, my would-be week with the Mirai transitioned to more mundane matters. Specifically, dropping my wife off at LAX 38 miles away, followed by an additional 20-mile drive to a studio location in Long Beach for a sneak-peak of the 2024 Acura TLX and 2024 Honda Ridgeline. Do the math, and I’d need at least 110 miles to make the journey. Theoretically, this should not have been a problem. Theoretically.

 

The Mirai has three carbon fiber-reinforced tanks: one behind the rear axle, another in front of it and a third running the length of the center tunnel. By the way, the battery sits above the axle while the fuel cell is up front where an engine would be. Those tanks together hold 11 pounds of hydrogen at 10,000 psi, an amount that takes five minutes to fully refuel. That would be hydrogen’s main advantage, besides weight and sourcing battery materials, over an EV. Instead of sitting in a Walmart parking lot for a half-hour (if you’re lucky) or living somewhere that has access to a plug or charger, you can pop into a gas station just as you do with a regular engine.

 

Oh, and one more advantage: cost. Owners of both the Mirai and Hyundai Nexo get $15,000 worth of hydrogen over the course of a three-year lease or six-year ownership period. At the current hydrogen price I spotted at True Zero station ($36 per kilogram), you’d theoretically be getting 83 tanks of fuel included.  

 

OK, so how far does a “tank” get you? The Mirai Limited trim I drove is good for 357 miles of range with full tanks (the XLE can do 402). So, using basic math, you could theoretically get about 30,000 miles worth of free fuel before it gets $LOL to refill. Certainly, the lease option is the better deal.

 

Again, though, theoretically. I started my time with the Mirai with only 241 miles. You see, I actually live 4.4 miles and 6 minutes away from the Thousand Oaks True Zero hydrogen refueling station, which was why I felt confident in signing up for a week in the Mirai in the first place. Unfortunately, before the car arrived, the third-party company that handles press car loans informed me that the True Zero station was not functioning. Neither was a different hydrogen station located en route to me in Sherman Oaks. They’d have to fill the car near their office, also in Long Beach, and deliver it less than full. It must be said that I should’ve had a lot more than just 241 miles of range. According to my algebra, that amount of range should’ve been the equivalent of 67% full, but the fuel gauge was barely below full. Clearly, the car wasn’t getting anywhere close to whatever fuel economy determines that official range. Or there’s something wrong with the fuel gauge. So that’s another problem.

 

After the LAX drop-off, I made the quick, 1.5-mile drive to a Clean Energy station that has a whole heap of natural gas pumps and one hydrogen pump. Too bad, it had yellow tape on it. OK, so that’s now three hydrogen stations along my route out of order. I didn’t need to refuel, but I had the time before the studio sneak peak, so what the hell?

 

Continued at link.

DOH...theres that infrastructure hurdle again...with every "alternative" comes its own set of issues....

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

DOH...theres that infrastructure hurdle again...with every "alternative" comes its own set of issues....

Did I read correctly that $15,000 “free” hydrogen would provide about 30,000 miles of driving?  I hope I misread it because $0.50 per mile is extremely expensive.  I think e-Fuel has better future possibility than that, and that too is cost prohibitive at present.

[Rangers09]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

The problems with hydrogen outside of commercial fleets are vast and have been discussed already multiple times. 

 

There may be many challenges, but it is being developed gradually in British Columbia.

 

We now have 5 hydrogen filling stations for hydrogen powered cars, of which we have about 50 currently on the road. Unlike BEV's, they are developing and introducing this technology to address the range and refueling issues experienced with BEV's. The range is about 400 miles and refueling time is consistent with gas/diesel. The hydrogen refueling points are located in regular gas stations.

[Chrisgb]

7 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Duh yeah I got Subaru and Hyundai mixed up ?

Hyundai's first pickup was a derivative of their Pony car, not sold in this country- chicken tax and all. We were blessed with the Dodge Rampage/Plymouth Scamp

[Oac98]

4 hours ago, Deanh said:

I heard they are testing hydrogen.....

I’ve heard that as well but electrification is the focus.