Ford Sales January 2024 - Up 4.3% Overall

[tbone]

7 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

I really hope this situation turns around because as someone who is gonna have to be building BEVs in a year I can’t help but feel some skepticism. I know it’s early but I have every right to be concerned. Do I think EV will fail in the long run, no. All these governments pumping billions of dollars into this won’t allow it to fail in the long run. These sales figures are just garbage how does Ford improve this situation. Ford would rather import so I doubt that we will ever see any edge or nautilus built in N/A again.  Mexico was also supposed to build what Oakville is getting, their projections were way off.  If you ask me OAC should get the next generation Mach E as it’s GE2 as well. It seems as though ford will be under capacity right now sales wise with these EVs. Am I wrong?

I understand your concerns and they’re valid. There is a serious amount of uncertainty in the BEV market. Is anyone asking if BEVs are the right solution to decrease emissions? I’m not pretending to suggest there is a better alternative yet, just wondering really. Ultimately these two Ford vehicles, which are nicely appointed attractive vehicles, are not selling due to perceived, or real range deficiencies, and perhaps some cost issues. .  Unless there is some miraculous change in battery technology in the VERY near future, I don’t see how the situation improves.  

[tbone]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I can’t help feeling that Ford’s launch and first 12 months of Mach E, COVID, the delays and problems with batteries/supplies all mounted up and acted against a smooth launch and uptake. So much chatter and distraction…..

 

 

Let’s face it, the Mach E was a rescue plan of another vehicle  that was probably going to be dead on delivery.

Ford tried and basically ended up with a Tesla Y rival but probably too much “baggage” along the way to really shine.

I kinda ease back on criticism of the Mach E because everything is struggling to sell at the moment,

so I don’t thing doing this or that change would have made much difference to where we are now..

 

Mind you, the two VW based vehicles are probably more in line with what Ford Europe really wanted.

I drive the MME every week. I’m telling you it’s the range. It’s a very nice car otherwise and if it had a gas engine, they would be selling the crap out of it.

[Harley Lover]

19 hours ago, jpd80 said:

A C2 based Edge/Nautilus with hybrid and PHEV is looking more and more like a good idea..

 

Unless Ford are able to significantly improve supply of the battery/tranny/engine for hybrid and PHEV, that's a zero sum game. Current evidence is that Ford can't keep up with existing product offerings (Maverick/Escape). 

[silvrsvt]

16 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

The “long term” is going to be a lot longer than the wishful thinking we have bombarded with by the EV zealots. Any word on when to expect the next generation Mustang BEV? Demand for the current model is going to get even worse when Oakville comes online with the new BEV model. 

 

IMO the whole thing has been oversold by media and companies (stock prices)...its always been a long term (end of decade to 2035) thing not a wholesale conversion in the next 3-4 years. 

 

The big issue is getting battery pricing down (which is happening with LFP batteries) so the prices can come down a bit to make them more affordable.

 

We have huge economic headwinds right now-even fast selling products like the Bronco are sitting on the lot and there is subvented financing on the 2024 Mustang and other products. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

We have huge economic headwinds right now-even fast selling products like the Bronco are sitting on the lot and there is subvented financing on the 2024 Mustang and other products. 

High interest rates and inability to lease certain models doesn’t help. Literally yesterday I just bought out the lease on my Fusion and got a 6.4 percent from my CU and I feel incredibly lucky I got that. Even my sales rep was amazed. 

[jpd80]

16 hours ago, tbone said:

I drive the MME every week. I’m telling you it’s the range. It’s a very nice car otherwise and if it had a gas engine, they would be selling the crap out of it.

And that’s the thing here, MME is very close to the size of Edge/Nautilus and that C2 variants

of those sized vehicles would do well in North America because that’s what buyers want 

more so than a full electric like MME (kudos to you for buying one btw).

 

5 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Unless Ford are able to significantly improve supply of the battery/tranny/engine for hybrid and PHEV, that's a zero sum game. Current evidence is that Ford can't keep up with existing product offerings (Maverick/Escape). 

That was the common wisdom in 2023 Q3 & Q4, let me just say that Ford has a lot of medium term contracts that can’t be varied in an instant but, the moment that Ford started  increasing production at Hermosillo that changed. But did it change enough…that’s still a good question.

 

Now to your point regarding ZSG vs actual supply,, Ford now has plenty of Maverick, Bronco Sport and Escape inventory. Not implying that there are boat loads of hybrids sitting there but given a combined inventory of over 33,000 vehicles, you could imagine that there  would be more than a few thousand hybrid vehicles sitting there….

 

Perhaps there’s still not enough hybrid Mavericks but the supply is probably a lot better now….

Edited February 3 by jpd80

[jpd80]

17 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Well here's the thing, the f-series, maverick, bronco, and explorer, could all be seen as passion products, and those are all doing quite well. A lot of the passion products Ford has that aren't selling well currently, are the kinds of products where Ford is really onto something special, they just have to make some tweaks and improvements. The mach-e is one such example. 

Passion will get you only so far and it’s clear that those buyers have pulled back in the last few months, even F Series was down to 48,000 in January when it’s normally high 50s maybe early 60s. Inventories are building up now too (Rmc posted these at the top of the page) and we can see that a lack of product available is no longer the limiting factor..are buyers now waiting for cash incentives?

 

Quote

 

Passion product doesn't mean it has to be some 100k supercar, and that's all Ford is gonna sell to people. It means Ford is done with being vanilla. That's not to say there's no money to be made with vanilla, generic products. That's not to say Ford isn't going to care about quality or making affordable products moving forward. They're just saying Ford wants to become the affordable aspirational brand, which is what Ford does best as is. I can't think of a single brand who does as good of a job at making dream cars people can realistically afford. It's smart to lean into what makes your company unique, why waste money trying to be like everyone else?

Don’t get sucked into Ford speak, they demonise vehicles as commodities when they’re trying to push the high profit darlings. Ford often comes back to this image of wanting the brand to be some form of entry level premium brand which it’s not, it’s also why they continue discarding customer for no real reason other than to go chase higher profit per vehicle targets. Ford is literally throwing away lots of customers and have been doing so for at least the past decade or so.

 

A vehicle like Edge costs about $25k less to make than a comparable MME but guess what, Ford pushing hard with MME and now they have over 21,000 of them sitting there while they wave bye bye to Edge that still got 7,400 sales with a “tired” product cycle. The math doesn’t add up but you watch Ford spin it somehow..

Call Edge a commodity and its job done removing MME’s biggest internal competitor, the only problem is finding actual buyers.

Edited February 3 by jpd80

[Harley Lover]

33 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

And that’s the thing here, MME is very close to the size of Edge/Nautilus and that C2 variants

of those sized vehicles would do well in North America because that’s what buyers want 

more so than a full electric like MME (kudos to you for buying one btw).

 

That was the common wisdom in 2023 Q3 & Q4, let me just say that Ford has a lot of medium term contracts that can’t be varied in an instant but, the moment that Ford started  increasing production at Hermosillo that changed. But did it change enough…that’s still a good question.

 

Now to your point regarding ZSG vs actual supply,, Ford now has plenty of Maverick, Bronco Sport and Escape inventory. Not implying that there are boat loads of hybrids sitting there but given a combined inventory of over 33,000 vehicles, you could imagine that there  would be more than a few thousand hybrid vehicles sitting there….

 

Perhaps there’s still not enough hybrid Mavericks but the supply is probably a lot better now….

 

My point is simply that Ford does not appear to have enough (engine/tranny HEV/PHEV) supply to add a C2 based Edge/Nautilus with hybrid and PHEV. Adding BS HEV/PHEV might make the most sense if supply were accessible, as that volume might give Ford more bang for the buck in terms of impact on CAFE.

[Dequindre]

18 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Well here's the thing, the f-series, maverick, bronco, and explorer, could all be seen as passion products, and those are all doing quite well. A lot of the passion products Ford has that aren't selling well currently, are the kinds of products where Ford is really onto something special, they just have to make some tweaks and improvements. The mach-e is one such example. 

 

Passion product doesn't mean it has to be some 100k supercar, and that's all Ford is gonna sell to people. It means Ford is done with being vanilla. That's not to say there's no money to be made with vanilla, generic products. That's not to say Ford isn't going to care about quality or making affordable products moving forward. They're just saying Ford wants to become the affordable aspirational brand, which is what Ford does best as is. I can't think of a single brand who does as good of a job at making dream cars people can realistically afford. It's smart to lean into what makes your company unique, why waste money trying to be like everyone else?

 

1. How is "Ford done with being vanilla"? Reducing the lineup down to commercial vans, trucks, and a few crossovers sprinkled in the mix seems kind of vanilla to me. A lineup that small does not generate buzz.

 

2. Ford will never be an "aspirational brand" until they get their quality control under, for the lack of a better word, control. The automotive media has really picked up on Ford's nearly constant recalls over the past couple of years or so. Buyers are not going to pay a premium price for vehicles that have quality issues (perceived or real).

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, Harley Lover said:

 

My point is simply that Ford does not appear to have enough (engine/tranny HEV/PHEV) supply to add a C2 based Edge/Nautilus with hybrid and PHEV. Adding BS HEV/PHEV might make the most sense if supply were accessible, as that volume might give Ford more bang for the buck in terms of impact on CAFE.

Sorry, I misread what you said.

My original post was considering if Ford had gone with C2 Edge/Nautilus at Oakville instead of going so hard with MME, things would be very different. For one, you wouldn’t have 21,000 MME sitting unsold with massive battery packs in them…

 

The reason it looks like Ford doesn’t have much PHEV/HEV supply is because they didn’t set contracts to do that. The actual supply isn’t an issue, it’s just a case of telling suppliers that they need more. Ford is actually in the process of renegotiating a lot of stuff at the moment and it will be interesting to see the result……Im not expecting C2 Edge/Aviator production in North America anytime soon, that boat has sailed.

 

If indeed Escape has become a commodity product, it would seem wise to start switching hybrid and PHEV to Bronco Sport, the problem is the customer reaction to that is not known, it may add precious little which is why Ford didn’t try in the first place.

Edited February 3 by jpd80

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Dequindre said:

 

1. How is "Ford done with being vanilla"? Reducing the lineup down to commercial vans, trucks, and a few crossovers sprinkled in the mix seems kind of vanilla to me. A lineup that small does not generate buzz.

You're joking, right?  Maverick, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Ranger Raptor, F150 Raptor, Bronco Raptor and Mustang Dark Horse generate 1000 times more buzz than fusion, focus, fiesta and Ecosport.  
 

10 years ago they had 15 vehicles.  Today it’s 14.  Sales and market share are similar but profits are way up.  

[CKNSLS]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:12 PM, jpd80 said:

Wow, F Series sales down to 48,000 last month is a concern but the upside is that

total F Series inventory seems under control with 168,000 In pre-COVID times that

number would often be well over 200,000 and big end of MY invectives were common.

 

Thanks to rmc532 for providing all the data, sales, production and inventory 

 

Mach E sales crashed last month to 1,295 while total inventory stands at 21,500,

no wonder Ford wants to cut production, they can’t give them away at the moment….

Ask yourself how long until Ford starts waving the white flag and quick sales them.

 

While Ford doesn’t break out Lightning production from Dearborn plants totals for F150,

it’s a pretty safe assumption that if Kansas city is producing 10,000, then it an easy guess

that the Dearborn plant’s 16,000 figure represents about 10,000  F150s and about 6,000 Lightnings..

Its pretty easy to see if US sales stay about 2,200 then production must be cut in half (begins April).

 

Ford now has a new “Super Segment” of compact vehicles comprising of Maverick, Escape and Bronco Sport.

Looking across the combined sales figure of +33,000 it’s easy how the three vehicles work together but again

mounting inventory for Maverick (18,700), Escape (28,300) and Bronco Sport (29,600) should dispel an ideas

that Ford production supplies are still restricted…….

 

What shocked me even more was Explorer sales 18,885 and total inventory swelling to 46,600 units.

Additionally, Aviator inventory is around 7,900 so maybe some good deals are on the way….

 

And I’ll say this about Ford’s heavy trucks, when Ford only sells 737  and has over 5,100 in inventory,

then something has to change..fast.

I believe we have an affordability crisis coming in regards to trucks especially. Of course this not exclusive to Ford. I bought a slightly used F150 (2020) Lariat over a year ago with 26,000 miles on it at the new factory sticker was $47,000.00.  That same truck is substantially more in 2024. I would like to upgrade-can even afford to do so-but outright refuse to do so at current prices.

 

This current pricing situation-IMHO is not substainable.

Edited February 4 by CKNSLS

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, Dequindre said:

 

1. How is "Ford done with being vanilla"? Reducing the lineup down to commercial vans, trucks, and a few crossovers sprinkled in the mix seems kind of vanilla to me. A lineup that small does not generate buzz.

 

2. Ford will never be an "aspirational brand" until they get their quality control under, for the lack of a better word, control. The automotive media has really picked up on Ford's nearly constant recalls over the past couple of years or so. Buyers are not going to pay a premium price for vehicles that have quality issues (perceived or real).

1. As I've discussed at several points in the past, passion and excitement in a vehicle looks different depending who you're talking to. I'm a massive car enthusiast, to me, Ford's best passion products are things like the mustang, the gt, the raptor R. 

 

But if you're a business owner, and Ford comes out with a new electric transit that focuses on having lower ownership costs than the gas transit, and comes with pro power on-board so you can use it to run pieces of equipment your business needs. Well then that transit becomes more of a passion product than what came before, because it's a better tool to help you better your business. 

 

Passion isn't the same for everyone. The issue is A to B appliances aren't products of passion, they're products of tolerance. Someone who loves their mustang, or ranger, will keep it, and enjoy it, even if they have to fix a few small things here and there. People who just want a transportation appliance will drop it at the first sign of trouble. They aren't particularly loyal, and they often aren't profitable to appeal to. Ford is smart to get away from that crowd. You can make a reliable, and affordable passion product, the maverick is all three, so is the bronco sport. 

 

2. Are you for real? Most aspirational brands are European, and essentially each of those brands has far worse quality and reliability than Ford's products do. 

 

I've literally never met a single person who knows about the reputation of brands, and says "Wow, I wish Ford had the same level of reliability as BMW and range Rover". Ford's cars are a lot like Toyotas cars as far as I'm concerned. Lots of plastic in the interiors, not super high end feeling. But the greasy bits basically last forever. Ford gives you a luxury that virtually no European brand can match, peace of mind. These are a lot of buyers willing to pay a premium for that. 

[jpd80]

30 minutes ago, CKNSLS said:

I believe we have an affordability crisis coming in regards to trucks especially. Of course this not exclusive to Ford. I bought a slightly used F150 (2020) Lariat over a year ago with 26,000 miles on it at the new factory sticker was $47,000.00.  That same truck is substantially more in 2024. I would like to upgrade-can even afford to do so-but outright refuse to do so at current prices.

 

This current pricing situation-IMHO is not substainable.

With regards to your post, the affordability crisis you speak of has been in play for the last decade

but we used to call it sticker shock. Absolutely, Ford and other carmakers are testing the market 

with higher and higher prices either by cutting the base entry trim level or adding compulsory equipment.

 

In the past, buyers would just hold firm until automakers relented and started offering cash incentives

but these days inventory of F Series is about a 100k less than in the twenty teens so I think they have

discount buyer trapped with mirage discounts on already inflated MSRPs. Let alone dealer markups.

However, a quieter few months May chasten the chiefs into offering some incentives just to keep

things moving, Ford in particular needs F Series sales to stay strong and not start sputtering.

[Dequindre]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

You're joking, right?  Maverick, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Ranger Raptor, F150 Raptor, Bronco Raptor and Mustang Dark Horse generate 1000 times more buzz than fusion, focus, fiesta and Ecosport.  
 

10 years ago they had 15 vehicles.  Today it’s 14.  Sales and market share are similar but profits are way up.  

 

Ford's declining sales seem to disagree. If the intent of the performance vehicles that you listed was to generate buzz, and sales, it's not working.

[Dequindre]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

1. As I've discussed at several points in the past, passion and excitement in a vehicle looks different depending who you're talking to. I'm a massive car enthusiast, to me, Ford's best passion products are things like the mustang, the gt, the raptor R. 

 

But if you're a business owner, and Ford comes out with a new electric transit that focuses on having lower ownership costs than the gas transit, and comes with pro power on-board so you can use it to run pieces of equipment your business needs. Well then that transit becomes more of a passion product than what came before, because it's a better tool to help you better your business. 

 

Passion isn't the same for everyone. The issue is A to B appliances aren't products of passion, they're products of tolerance. Someone who loves their mustang, or ranger, will keep it, and enjoy it, even if they have to fix a few small things here and there. People who just want a transportation appliance will drop it at the first sign of trouble. They aren't particularly loyal, and they often aren't profitable to appeal to. Ford is smart to get away from that crowd. You can make a reliable, and affordable passion product, the maverick is all three, so is the bronco sport. 

 

2. Are you for real? Most aspirational brands are European, and essentially each of those brands has far worse quality and reliability than Ford's products do. 

 

I've literally never met a single person who knows about the reputation of brands, and says "Wow, I wish Ford had the same level of reliability as BMW and range Rover". Ford's cars are a lot like Toyotas cars as far as I'm concerned. Lots of plastic in the interiors, not super high end feeling. But the greasy bits basically last forever. Ford gives you a luxury that virtually no European brand can match, peace of mind. These are a lot of buyers willing to pay a premium for that. 

 

Toyota can rest on the laurels of their reliability; Ford cannot. Recently reliability reports from JD Power and other such organizations seem to verify that. Ford's well-publicized reliability issues are probably like a death by a thousand cuts that deter potential buyers. 

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, Dequindre said:

Ford's declining sales seem to disagree. If the intent of the performance vehicles that you listed was to generate buzz, and sales, it's not working.

 

Declining sales?  2023 sales in the U.S. were up over 7% from 2022.  

[akirby]

24 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

Declining sales?  2023 sales in the U.S. were up over 7% from 2022.  

Don’t confuse him with facts.

Edited February 4 by akirby

[mustang84isu]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

You're joking, right?  Maverick, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Ranger Raptor, F150 Raptor, Bronco Raptor and Mustang Dark Horse generate 1000 times more buzz than fusion, focus, fiesta and Ecosport.  
 

10 years ago they had 15 vehicles.  Today it’s 14.  Sales and market share are similar but profits are way up.  

The Fusion and Focus generated a lot of buzz when they came out, especially the 2013 Fusion.  But in typical Ford fashion, they let things rot on the vine and then claim it was lack of demand that killed it instead of Ford's own lack of investment into that product or nameplate.  The 2017 Fusion refresh was weak and barely on anyone's radar, and it is not much of a surprise that sales went from 300K only a couple years earlier to 200K in 2017, then 173K in 2018, and then off the cliff when rumors about the Fusion's demise started to leak.

 

Ford's market share is actually down from where it was in 2015, 2016, and 2017.  It was almost 15% in 2017, dropped to 12.9% in 2022, and we don't have full figures yet for 2023 but in Q3 in was 12.8%.  How much of that lost market share was ceded to other manufacturers by axing sedans and not having a more diverse lineup?

Ford's profits are up quite a bit since covid, but they are still down from where they were in 2015, 16, and 17.  Gross profit in 2022 was $23 million, but in 2015-16-17 it was over $25 million and go back to 2013 and it was approaching $27 million.  I think offerings like Ford Pro are bringing a new revenue stream that will help Ford with more consistent profitability, but I worry Ford has backed itself into a corner on products by focusing only on what is popular at the moment and won't be able to react to changing trends when the tide inevitably shifts again.  Look at how popular SUV's were in 2000, and then how popular sedans were only 10 years later, and then back to SUV's in 2020.  The difference in 2000 and 2010 was that Ford had a diverse lineup that could quickly react to changes, and not having a single sedan to sell seems foolish in this high interest rate environment.  Sedan sales for the Japanese three have stabilized, and Honda's new Accord was actually up almost 30% in 2023.  The Chevy Malibu was up 13% despite being pretty outdated.  Q1 2023 was the first time sedans had seen market share gain in the US since 2002 apparently, per Automotive News.  Seems like a mistake for Ford not to being participating at all.
 

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, Dequindre said:

 

Toyota can rest on the laurels of their reliability; Ford cannot. Recently reliability reports from JD Power and other such organizations seem to verify that. Ford's well-publicized reliability issues are probably like a death by a thousand cuts that deter potential buyers. 

Are we talking about perception of reliability, or real world objectivity? Because if it's the later, Ford and Toyota see a lot closer in terms of reliability than most people think. Just look at their trucks, all of Ford's trucks rank higher than Toyotas. The f-150 is more reliable than the newer Tundras, the ranger and maverick rank higher in terms of reliability than the Tacoma. 

 

The bronco sport and escape seem to be about on par with the rav 4. The fusion when it was being made was an exceptionally reliable sedan. I'd wager the mustang is probably more reliable than Toyotas BMW based supra. 

 

People love Toyota because of what they were 40 years ago, people hate Ford because of what they were 40 years ago. 

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, mustang84isu said:

Ford's market share is actually down from where it was in 2015, 2016, and 2017.  It was almost 15% in 2017, dropped to 12.9% in 2022, and we don't have full figures yet for 2023 but in Q3 in was 12.8%.  How much of that lost market share was ceded to other manufacturers by axing sedans and not having a more diverse lineup?

You’re correct.  Data I can find shows 2023 improved 7% over 2022, but since 2015 Ford volume has decreased in US, and World Wide sales since 2016 I believe.

 

[Rick73]

11 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I've literally never met a single person who knows about the reputation of brands, and says "Wow, I wish Ford had the same level of reliability as BMW and range Rover". Ford's cars are a lot like Toyotas cars as far as I'm concerned. Lots of plastic in the interiors, not super high end feeling. But the greasy bits basically last forever. Ford gives you a luxury that virtually no European brand can match, peace of mind. These are a lot of buyers willing to pay a premium for that. 

For years I heard Toyota and Honda were best built cars — for the money of course.  I’ve never owned a Toyota, but have owned a few Honda.  Being a sample of one owner I can only say I was pleased with Honda ownership.  Ford vehicles were OK too.  However, the biggest difference in my opinion is not supported with data showing defects or recalls per 1,000, but rather how issues were handled by dealers.  Maybe I was just unlucky, but dealing with Ford was a horrible experience I would never want to repeat, while Honda professionalism was great.

[Dequindre]

9 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

Declining sales?  2023 sales in the U.S. were up over 7% from 2022.  

 

Ford is still WAY off from their pre-Pandemic era sales figures. 

[silvrsvt]

40 minutes ago, Dequindre said:

 

Ford is still WAY off from their pre-Pandemic era sales figures. 

 

Sales numbers doesn't equal profit, just ask GM in 2009 how that worked out for them. 

 

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/F/ford-motor/gross-profit#:~:text=Ford Motor gross profit for the twelve months ending September,a 50.71% increase from 2020.

 

[tbone]

17 hours ago, jpd80 said:

And that’s the thing here, MME is very close to the size of Edge/Nautilus and that C2 variants

of those sized vehicles would do well in North America because that’s what buyers want 

more so than a full electric like MME (kudos to you for buying one btw).

 

That was the common wisdom in 2023 Q3 & Q4, let me just say that Ford has a lot of medium term contracts that can’t be varied in an instant but, the moment that Ford started  increasing production at Hermosillo that changed. But did it change enough…that’s still a good question.

 

Now to your point regarding ZSG vs actual supply,, Ford now has plenty of Maverick, Bronco Sport and Escape inventory. Not implying that there are boat loads of hybrids sitting there but given a combined inventory of over 33,000 vehicles, you could imagine that there  would be more than a few thousand hybrid vehicles sitting there….

 

Perhaps there’s still not enough hybrid Mavericks but the supply is probably a lot better now….

I don’t personally own the MME.  I have two work vehicles, which are the MME and an edge. The MME is a test vehicle for my employer. At some point, I will turn it back in, but I haven’t heard when that will be.  I really won’t be disappointed when that happens.  It’s not worth the hassle to me based on a number of factors.

Edited February 4 by tbone