REPORT: Ford Edge Production Continuation Wasn't Possible

[akirby]

11 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

 

Eh not really luxury branded pickups is not really a segment.  It was tried and it failed.  There's a reason why BMW and MB don't make full size pickups because no other luxury brand makes them.  I still see people in Lincoln groups saying Lincoln should bring back the Blackwood or Mark LT and in all honesty they shouldn't it would be a loser right out the gate.  No one wants a luxury branded pickup. 

 

Ford was known for their cars too along side their trucks.  Taurus was a huge seller in the 80s and 90s.  Hell even when sales slipped in the early 2000s if you combined the Taurus and Sable sales I believe it sold more than the Camry. 

 

To add to this Ford really needs something more value oriented and needs to stop propping up the Ford brand as if it's a premium brand.  Maverick is the only vehicle they sell that starts under 25k.

Stop taking the luxury pickup thing so literally.  I was just trying to make the point that different brands do different things.

 

Taurus was a huge seller but made no profit.  It was propped up by rental volume.  The entire Hapeville plant made nothing but rental cars the last few years.  Again you’re confusing sales with profits.

 

You can say Ford can’t sell higher priced vehicles but that’s exactly what they’re doing and doing it well.  If they had warranty costs under control it would be even better.  You can’t blame a company for playing to their strengths and maximizing their returns just because they’re not building what you like.

[Andrew L]

46 minutes ago, akirby said:

Stop taking the luxury pickup thing so literally.  I was just trying to make the point that different brands do different things.

 

Taurus was a huge seller but made no profit.  It was propped up by rental volume.  The entire Hapeville plant made nothing but rental cars the last few years.  Again you’re confusing sales with profits.

 

You can say Ford can’t sell higher priced vehicles but that’s exactly what they’re doing and doing it well.  If they had warranty costs under control it would be even better.  You can’t blame a company for playing to their strengths and maximizing their returns just because they’re not building what you like.

 

1. You asked and I provided and answer... Yes different brands do different things but we are talking about Ford being in a segment they have been in forever and just dropping it all together because they apparently made no profit on it at all. 

 

2. Taurus used basically the same chassis since 1986 to 2007 with it being revised in 1996.  I am not confusing profits with sales I am willing to bet the development for the chassis was already paid off I am sure they were making profit on the Taurus and Sable.  Granted by 2003 it was long in the tooth and in dire need of an update but it would be silly to state they made no profit on it.  Fusion did a far better job when it was introduced because it was spread across 4 brands as opposed to 2 (Yes I know Continental was also on the Taurus chassis but it was a very different vehicle). 

 

3. I never said Ford CANT sell higher priced vehicles but I am stating they need more value oriented products.  They are missing the mission statement of Henry Ford wanting to build a car everyone could afford.  I am in NO WAY suggesting they make no profit but come on they only have 1 product that starts under 25k and that's the Maverick.  I can't tell you how many people I have talked to that said they love the idea of a Maverick but they are not spending that kind of money a small vehicle. 

 

Also to be clear I am not blaming a company because they are "not building what I like" I am criticizing them for giving up on products they sold here in the US but still sell elsewhere in the world.  I read the book American Icon which was about Mulally's time as Ford's CEO and one part of the book that really stuck out in my head was when Mulally sat on the floor and made a huge chart of every Ford product and what platform they were built on and it was a mess.  They had products like the Falcon that had its own dedicated platform in Australia and it was shared with nothing else.  He had them consolidate so much and it really helped turn the company around.  I am sure you know this and don't need a history lesson but my point that I am trying to get across here is if they should be selling products they build elsewhere here as well it would help lower costs and drive up profits while retaining customers and not losing them to foreign brands. 

 

Look Chevy still sells the Malibu they sold 130k of them in 2023 up from 115k in 2022 those numbers aren't huge but it's better than 0.  Are we going to say the Malibu makes 0 profit?  If so why does Chevy keep making it and selling it here?

Mondeo is only sold in China now, they sold 59,868 in 2022.  Is there enough profit there to justify that?  What if they sold it in the US as well and managed to sell 100k of them?  Wouldn't that make it better?

 

I want Ford to succeed but I want them to stop leaving segments just cause "Not enough profit" They have the ability to make it work but I feel like they don't want to do it and just focus on their trucks.  Aside from sedans Edge is another example of them giving up on a segment.

 

And in terms of big profits I really think Ford needs to start taking Lincoln seriously again and put an effort into giving them more product.  To go back to what I was saying before about Ford acting like a premium brand... you can sell Lincolns at a higher price than Fords and get away with it.  When you see Fords with 70 to 80k price tags you get sticker shock and hear people say "that much for a FORD?".

 

Edited April 15 by Andrew L

[DeluxeStang]

32 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

 I never said Ford CANT sell higher priced vehicles but I am stating they need more value oriented products.  They are missing the mission statement of Henry Ford wanting to build a car everyone could afford.  I am in NO WAY suggesting they make no profit but come on they only have 1 product that starts under 25k and that's the Maverick.  I can't tell you how many people I have talked to that said they love the idea of a Maverick but they are not spending that kind of money a small vehicle. 

 

And in terms of big profits I really think Ford needs to start taking Lincoln seriously again and put an effort into giving them more product.  To go back to what I was saying before about Ford acting like a premium brand... you can sell Lincolns at a higher price than Fords and get away with it.  When you see Fords with 70 to 80k price tags you get sticker shock and hear people say "that much for a FORD?".

 

With all due respect, it seems like the people you're talking to are a little disconnected from reality if they think 25 grand for a brand new car is unreasonable. The maverick might be small, by that's the appeal of it. It's like a modern 90s ranger, frugal, reliable,capable enough. It's a product that offers the fuel efficiency and driving dynamics of a sedan, with the utility and longevity of a truck, 25 grand for that combination is the definition of reasonable as far as I'm concerned. 

If someone can't find the value in that, they're not going find the value in a new Ford sedan. 

 

As for the comment of sticker shock, let me be completely transparent, I've never understood why the brand makes all the difference here. I don't understand how people can justify spending 80 grand on a shitbox BMW that's gonna blow it's motor after 3 years. But those same people will scoff at spending 70 grand on a Ford which has just as nice of an interior and tech, and will last 20 years. I could care less about brand prestige, I just want a great product for a decent price. 

[Andrew L]

21 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

With all due respect, it seems like the people you're talking to are a little disconnected from reality if they think 25 grand for a brand new car is unreasonable. The maverick might be small, by that's the appeal of it. It's like a modern 90s ranger, frugal, reliable,capable enough. It's a product that offers the fuel efficiency and driving dynamics of a sedan, with the utility and longevity of a truck, 25 grand for that combination is the definition of reasonable as far as I'm concerned. 

If someone can't find the value in that, they're not going find the value in a new Ford sedan. 

 

As for the comment of sticker shock, let me be completely transparent, I've never understood why the brand makes all the difference here. I don't understand how people can justify spending 80 grand on a shitbox BMW that's gonna blow it's motor after 3 years. But those same people will scoff at spending 70 grand on a Ford which has just as nice of an interior and tech, and will last 20 years. I could care less about brand prestige, I just want a great product for a decent price. 

 

To be fair the Maverick has only been out for 2 years we don't know how reliable they are just yet.  The 2.0 EcoBoost has had issues and granted I hope to God Ford has fixed that issue because otherwise it could cause issues.  The other thing too is it's built on a car chassis so it's not really like a 90s Ranger (aside from size) which was built on a body on frame chassis.  I imagine the hybrid should be just fine since Ford's hybrids have been reliable.

 

I think the Maverick is a solid product don't get me wrong but it does get pricey once you start optioning it out.  I wish Ford had some more lower end offerings though the Maverick is the only sub 25k vehicle which was the point I was trying to make.  An Escape and Bronco Sport is nearly 30k to start and they are built on the same chassis.

[akirby]

All these Ford needs and Ford should build are strictly emotional desires with zero business rationale.  You can’t bring back Focus without killing either an existing product or the new cheaper EVs.  So which one are you killing?

[GearheadGrrrl]

What we're seeing is Ford retreating to a high volume North American product, and a case can be made that Ford could survive at half it's current size on the F series alone. But that leaves the problem of half of Ford and it's employees with nothing to do with only F series around. 

 

It gets worse... What happens when the trend to smaller garages and high prices cuts F series sales in half and Ford hasn't kept the Ranger competitive with Tacoma et al...

[AM222]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Not just executives but also employees and shareholders.  And when you say things like Ford needs to or Ford should do something then that implies a business decision and I’m trying to explain why Ford is making these business decisions.

 

You seem to only care about the consumer view and that’s fine as a consumer.  But don’t try to rationalize the business decision based on that.

As a consumer and Ford fan, it's a bit disappointing to see how a once powerful global carmaker no longer takes the global market as seriously as it used to.  

It's hard to imagine that the Ranger is now the only true global Ford model.
*I don't count the Mustang because it's sold as a niche premium/luxury model in many global markets which explains why over 3/4 of its sales are still coming from the US.

In 2023 Ford sold 4.4 million vehicles worldwide, while Toyota sold 11.2 million vehicles.

A global carmaker like Toyota for example can spread the development cost of a new vehicle or platform over every vehicle it sells around the world. 

Developing a non-global vehicle means it relies heavily on domestic sales, it will also probably take longer for it to be profitable. Then throw in the continuous stream of recalls that cost the company like millions or billions?

I like the Mustang, Ranger, and Bronco but I do wish they expanded their portfolio to include smaller models that Ford of Europe used to handle.

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

What we're seeing is Ford retreating to a high volume North American product, and a case can be made that Ford could survive at half it's current size on the F series alone. But that leaves the problem of half of Ford and it's employees with nothing to do with only F series around. 

Seriously, Ford has been down/right sizing to market need ever since Mulally,

all of that is just code for building less and charging more and banking profit

from not expending as much labor and resources to get it. Like it or hate it,

that’s what Ford has become in its pursuit of %return on revenue.

 

 

4 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

It gets worse... What happens when the trend to smaller garages and high prices cuts F series sales in half and Ford hasn't kept the Ranger competitive with Tacoma et al...

Instead of worrying about what ifs that may be years to come, Ford prioritises 

production of its most profitable models and costs production of other models

to make that happen (saw it with chip shortages and other parts supply issues).

 

Even when Ford fouls up, it makes sure that it’s poor sellers still get sold and they

just move on and try again with something else.

[akirby]

6 hours ago, AM222 said:

As a consumer and Ford fan, it's a bit disappointing to see how a once powerful global carmaker no longer takes the global market as seriously as it used to.  

It's hard to imagine that the Ranger is now the only true global Ford model.
*I don't count the Mustang because it's sold as a niche premium/luxury model in many global markets which explains why over 3/4 of its sales are still coming from the US.

In 2023 Ford sold 4.4 million vehicles worldwide, while Toyota sold 11.2 million vehicles.

A global carmaker like Toyota for example can spread the development cost of a new vehicle or platform over every vehicle it sells around the world. 

Developing a non-global vehicle means it relies heavily on domestic sales, it will also probably take longer for it to be profitable. Then throw in the continuous stream of recalls that cost the company like millions or billions?

I like the Mustang, Ranger, and Bronco but I do wish they expanded their portfolio to include smaller models that Ford of Europe used to handle.

 

Toyota only sold 8M vehicles in 2023.  1/3 of that volume and half their profits came from Japan which is a closed market where Ford isn’t allowed to compete fairly.

 

I understand the disappointment but Europe and South America have been shit shows for Ford financially, even when they had decent products.

 

 

[akirby]

9 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

What we're seeing is Ford retreating to a high volume North American product, and a case can be made that Ford could survive at half it's current size on the F series alone. But that leaves the problem of half of Ford and it's employees with nothing to do with only F series around. 

 

It gets worse... What happens when the trend to smaller garages and high prices cuts F series sales in half and Ford hasn't kept the Ranger competitive with Tacoma et al...

Don’t let facts get in the way of your lies.  I already pointed out all the new vehicles Ford launched to replace the ones they cancelled.  And Ranger is competitive now and will be even better when production is fully ramped up.

[Gurgeh]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

All these Ford needs and Ford should build are strictly emotional desires with zero business rationale.  You can’t bring back Focus without killing either an existing product or the new cheaper EVs.  So which one are you killing?

Well, Ford could shift all new US/Canada-built EVs to the new Blue Oval City since the vehicles are getting delayed and now the new facility should be ready by the time Job 1 for them actually comes. There you go with a nice big unused facility in Canada with a great record and terrific workforce ready and able to bring back the Edge, repatriate Nautilus production, and maybe do something else on the side. I know, I know. The time for that logical decision was a year or two ago. But you are saying Ford's problem is that all of their North American factories have no capacity available for new product. Well, this one apparently does and Ford's current plan seems to be to just let it sit idle for the next two years.

Edited April 16 by Gurgeh

[Oac98]

3 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Well, Ford could shift all new US/Canada-built EVs to the new Blue Oval City since the vehicles are getting delayed and now the new facility should be ready by the time Job 1 for them actually comes. There you go with a nice big unused facility in Canada with a great record and terrific workforce ready and able to bring back the Edge, repatriate Nautilus production, and maybe do something else on the side. I know, I know. The time for that logical decision was a year or two ago. But you are saying Ford's problem is that all of their North American factories have no capacity available for new product. Well, this one apparently does and Ford's current plan seems to be to just let it sit idle for the next two years.

I believe Ford is under capacity, not overcapacity. Mach-E plant can build more vehicles, Flat Rock is on one shift. Blueovalcity and Oakville can build multiple vehicles. Etc etc. The truck plants and MAP are using most of their capacity. Hermosillo all out, Chicago pretty full. Louisville doing pretty good. 

[AM222]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

Toyota only sold 8M vehicles in 2023.  1/3 of that volume and half their profits came from Japan which is a closed market where Ford isn’t allowed to compete fairly.

 

I understand the disappointment but Europe and South America have been shit shows for Ford financially, even when they had decent products.

 

 

Sorry, that figure I posted included Daihatsu and Lexus.  I'm sure Lincoln contributed very little to Ford's global sales. Outside Japan Toyota is strong in Asia-Pacific region.

Japan being a closed market is BS because foreign non-luxury brands like Volkswagen and Mini are doing well in Japan and were doing better than Ford when it was selling Japanese consumers (that favor small vehicles) left hand drive Explorers, left hand drive S197 Mustangs, and some big Lincolns. Before they left Japan, it tried to sell the problematic Fiesta PowerShift, too little too late.

A lot of the markets where Ford failed, it was due to uncompetitive aging models or straight out selling the wrong type of cars. 

Edited April 16 by AM222

[silvrsvt]

3 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Well, this one apparently does and Ford's current plan seems to be to just let it sit idle for the next two years.

 

the issue is that Oakvillie is being retooled to make EVs, which from what i understand is going to make big changes to the way the plant is laid out vs the way it is currently being used. 

 

The other thing is this-with the changes over the next few years-EVs are still coming, like it or not, so does it really make sense to offer a PHEV 2 row CUV that will only be on sale for less then 10 years to recoup the costs? its going to take at least another 24 months or longer to get say a reskinned CN Edge for sale in the NA market and a plant tooled up for it. Given we are almost half way through 2024, I doubt it would be on sale tlll 2027MY in late 2026 or early 2027.

 

Then how would it impact plans for other products that are in the pipeline? I could see maybe Louisville getting the C2 midsize products due to timing, but how would that impact the low cost EVs that are apparently coming to replace the Escape? Will they move someplace else? will they just slot under the Escape/Bronco Sport?

[akirby]

38 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Well, Ford could shift all new US/Canada-built EVs to the new Blue Oval City since the vehicles are getting delayed and now the new facility should be ready by the time Job 1 for them actually comes. There you go with a nice big unused facility in Canada with a great record and terrific workforce ready and able to bring back the Edge, repatriate Nautilus production, and maybe do something else on the side. I know, I know. The time for that logical decision was a year or two ago. But you are saying Ford's problem is that all of their North American factories have no capacity available for new product. Well, this one apparently does and Ford's current plan seems to be to just let it sit idle for the next two years.

I was also referring to other resources needed to build and sell a new vehicle here.  Engineering, design, testing, certification, marketing plus all the normal overhead.  People often think it’s just factory space but every vehicle has dozens if not hundreds of dedicated employees supporting it.

 

I agree that Oakville could and should be used for Nautilus and Edge and other C2 products if needed.  Just cancel the 3 row EVs.

[akirby]

18 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

the issue is that Oakvillie is being retooled to make EVs, which from what i understand is going to make big changes to the way the plant is laid out vs the way it is currently being used. 

 

The other thing is this-with the changes over the next few years-EVs are still coming, like it or not, so does it really make sense to offer a PHEV 2 row CUV that will only be on sale for less then 10 years to recoup the costs? its going to take at least another 24 months or longer to get say a reskinned CN Edge for sale in the NA market and a plant tooled up for it. Given we are almost half way through 2024, I doubt it would be on sale tlll 2027MY in late 2026 or early 2027.

 

Then how would it impact plans for other products that are in the pipeline? I could see maybe Louisville getting the C2 midsize products due to timing, but how would that impact the low cost EVs that are apparently coming to replace the Escape? Will they move someplace else? will they just slot under the Escape/Bronco Sport?

Oakville can easily be redirected to continue with ICE if that’s the direction they want to go.  In addition to Nautilus and Edge you could move Corsair and possibly even Escape there freeing up Louisville for the new EVs.  That makes BOC, Louisville and Cuatitlan to make EVs along with Lightning at the F150 plant if they continue it for Ford Pro.

 

And I don’t see any new PHEVs, just hybrids for everything and Oakville has a battery supplier.

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Oakville can easily be redirected to continue with ICE if that’s the direction they want to go.  In addition to Nautilus and Edge you could move Corsair and possibly even Escape there freeing up Louisville for the new EVs.  That makes BOC, Louisville and Cuatitlan to make EVs along with Lightning at the F150 plant if they continue it for Ford Pro.

 

And I don’t see any new PHEVs, just hybrids for everything and Oakville has a battery supplier.

 

They could do that, but what about the impact of Tax breaks from the Canadian government, etc that was put into place to redo the plant?

 

A C2 HEV/PHEV Edge would be "new" for North America-new subcontractors etc to get parts from. Would take at least 24 months to get things spun up and another 6 months for product to be actually sold here if they did that. 

 

Given how the market is going with EVs, I don't see a future for subline for MAP, the Lightning in its current state, wouldn't make a good pro vehicle for vast majority of uses that the current F-150 covers. Plus its been more or less explicitly spelled out in the UAW contract they would have first shot at jobs at BOC. 

[rmc523]

20 hours ago, akirby said:

Completely missed the point.  Kia would kill to be able to sell 900k vehicles at the kinds of margins that Ford gets with F series.  But they can’t because they don’t have the experience or expertise nor are they willing to make the huge investment required.

 

A company has to play to its strengths and what works for one doesn’t work for another.  Companies that aren’t US based evolved differently.  And companies have to prioritize their resources.  
 

They cancelled Continental, Taurus, Fusion, MKZ, Focus, Fiesta and Ecosport.  But they added Ranger, Bronco, Maverick, Bronco Sport, Aviator, Mach-e, E-transit and Lightning.  And they’re working on at least 4 more new vehicles.**   Escape isn’t going anywhere now and I think Edge will be back.

 

It’s a zero sum game unless you’re willing to build new plants and hire more people.  

 

** Until the current plan changes in 3 months for another new plan lol.

[ExplorerDude]

19 hours ago, joseodiaga4 said:

Agree but in that case why is Ford so behind for example GM in the full size SUV segment? It seems that Ford only can focus in one thing or max two at the same

time.

This right here is the summation of why Ford is the way it is. It’s also why the Premier Automotive Group was disabled. Mulally saw the culture at Ford and knew it couldn’t manage that much. That is still the case today.

[Andrew L]

1 hour ago, ExplorerDude said:

This right here is the summation of why Ford is the way it is. It’s also why the Premier Automotive Group was disabled. Mulally saw the culture at Ford and knew it couldn’t manage that much. That is still the case today.

 

It also explains why they get hot about Lincoln then cold then hot again and back to cold.  I wish they would allow the brand to have some more autonomy so it could grow.  

 

Part of the issue with PAG too was the brands were sucking money bad like Jaguar and Land Rover, they had to go.  Ford lost so much money with little to no return on them.  I always felt like Volvo was fine and worth keeping but who knows.

[akirby]

Ford really screwed the pooch when they allowed Europe and North America to do their own thing pre Mulally.   Had they gone global with C1 everywhere it could have evolved into C2 and had they gone ahead with global RWD unibody back in 2003 the product portfolio might look a lot different.

[joseodiaga4]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

It also explains why they get hot about Lincoln then cold then hot again and back to cold.  I wish they would allow the brand to have some more autonomy so it could grow.  

 

Agree. It is very weird the way they manage the Lincoln brand. They don’t keep the momentum going.

If there aren't any EV is the near future, there needs to be something else for Lincoln aside refreshes

[Andrew L]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Ford really screwed the pooch when they allowed Europe and North America to do their own thing pre Mulally.   Had they gone global with C1 everywhere it could have evolved into C2 and had they gone ahead with global RWD unibody back in 2003 the product portfolio might look a lot different.

 

I never understood why the Focus split after it was introduced in NA.  You'd think they would have stayed joined at the hip.  The 2nd gen that we never got in the US was a really nice car.  Instead we got that weirdly styled one.

 

If only DEW98 was allowed to go on more products like it was originally planned it might not have been a money pit.  Even though my MKZ I have now is probably 10x the car my old LS was I still miss my LS.  Always put a smile on my face when I drove it always makes me wonder what could have been if it got a true 2nd generation.

[ExplorerDude]

2 hours ago, joseodiaga4 said:

Agree. It is very weird the way they manage the Lincoln brand. They don’t keep the momentum going.

If there aren't any EV is the near future, there needs to be something else for Lincoln aside refreshes

Leadership has a major impact on a company like Ford. It really is amazing how one person can literally influence and control direction and strategy so much. 
 

I honestly have reasonable hope for Lincoln moving forward. There are a few different silhouettes that will join (or at least they were supposed to) in the next couple of years that should make the faithful much happier.

[Oac98]

11 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

the issue is that Oakvillie is being retooled to make EVs, which from what i understand is going to make big changes to the way the plant is laid out vs the way it is currently being used. 

 

The other thing is this-with the changes over the next few years-EVs are still coming, like it or not, so does it really make sense to offer a PHEV 2 row CUV that will only be on sale for less then 10 years to recoup the costs? its going to take at least another 24 months or longer to get say a reskinned CN Edge for sale in the NA market and a plant tooled up for it. Given we are almost half way through 2024, I doubt it would be on sale tlll 2027MY in late 2026 or early 2027.

 

Then how would it impact plans for other products that are in the pipeline? I could see maybe Louisville getting the C2 midsize products due to timing, but how would that impact the low cost EVs that are apparently coming to replace the Escape? Will they move someplace else? will they just slot under the Escape/Bronco Sport?

Is it not a possibility that these low cost EVs go to Mexico?? Ford didn’t announce what plant they’re going in. Or am I mistaken here?