sullynd Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 On 12/8/2024 at 6:00 AM, twintornados said: I just thought it was odd that the Lincoln doesn't have it while other PHEV's do. I’m not aware of a single PHEV that supports DCFC. (CCS/NACS) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 2 hours ago, sullynd said: I’m not aware of a single PHEV that supports DCFC. (CCS/NACS) Mazda CX70/90 do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 13 hours ago, rmc523 said: I finally got around to the sales chart....some very healthy increases on there, but I think production/inventory issues were still present last year. Lincoln should be able to break 100k this year, which is good news....and I don't think it's happened since they dropped the sedans from the lineup (I'd have to go back and look to verify that). With Edge going away, that's another 65k units being pulled from the lineup. I know volume isn't everything, but still.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 1 hour ago, twintornados said: Mazda CX70/90 do. There are others as well, particularly in Europe. Mercedes shows 60 kW charge speed in specs. As I mentioned before, when PHEVs are designed with larger batteries for much longer EV-only driving range (up to 93 miles), it starts to make more sense that they will not be charged only at home. Additionally, newer battery technologies claim charging speed capabilities up to 4C (IIRC), so larger-battery PHEV with over 30 kWh in some cases can certainly benefit from fast charging. Below covers PHEVs with extraordinarily long electric range. I don’t question the technology at all, just the financial benefit. If PHEVs are to help transition from ICE to BEV, it makes sense their battery size and EV range will gradually increase. For now their price is what I would consider unaffordable for mass adoption. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/list/these-are-top-12-hybrids-order-electric-range 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 2 hours ago, Rick73 said: There are others as well, particularly in Europe. Mercedes shows 60 kW charge speed in specs. As I mentioned before, when PHEVs are designed with larger batteries for much longer EV-only driving range (up to 93 miles), it starts to make more sense that they will not be charged only at home. Additionally, newer battery technologies claim charging speed capabilities up to 4C (IIRC), so larger-battery PHEV with over 30 kWh in some cases can certainly benefit from fast charging. Below covers PHEVs with extraordinarily long electric range. I don’t question the technology at all, just the financial benefit. If PHEVs are to help transition from ICE to BEV, it makes sense their battery size and EV range will gradually increase. For now their price is what I would consider unaffordable for mass adoption. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/list/these-are-top-12-hybrids-order-electric-range But at what point does all that extra weight offset any savings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 7 hours ago, twintornados said: Mazda CX70/90 do. This is Weird This is from Mazda's Website. Yet it looks to have a connector for CCS. but it can't use DC fast charging. What is the point with only 26 miles of all electric range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 Mitsubishi states their PHEV Outlander can charge to 80% in 38 minutes using CHAdeMO fast charging. That’s not enough range for an all-electric road trip, and not needed for home charging. Those who could benefit are likely a very small segment of buyers. https://www.mitsubishicars.com/cars-and-suvs/outlander-phev 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 Lincoln year-to-date sales are trailing Buick 93,159 to 137,235. I think that is significant because it seems Lincoln competes with Buick/Infinity/Volvo more than it does with Mercedes/BMW/Audi/Cadillac/Lexus currently. Heavy truck (F-650 and 750) and stripped chassis sales are at 'why bother' levels, but the E series is still showing amazing resilience. Maybe it's possible Ford could update the E series with a Transit style cab on the existing chassis? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 Talking of new PHEVs and charging rates, Ford Equator reportedly charges 18.4 kWh CATL battery pack from 30-80% in 14 minutes. https://fordauthority.com/2024/12/ford-equator-phev-officially-launches-in-china/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted December 10, 2024 Share Posted December 10, 2024 15 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: Maybe it's possible Ford could update the E series with a Transit style cab on the existing chassis? I’m not sure how much of an improvement or upgrade would result. No doubt E-Series cab is ancient, but IMO the worst features are in large part due to chassis and having engine pushed back so far. Upgrading to Transit-style cab would not accomplish much for me if the engine doghouse is still so wide and back. And if Ford can move engine forward and make doghouse narrower, they should do it anyway even with existing E-Series cab. One of the reasons I don’t like Transit is that seats are closer together than on my E-350, so if engine remained as at present relative to front axle, there would be no room to squeeze between seats and doghouse. I was hoping the 2026 E-Series would be revised similar to Chevy Express for improved cab space and access, but it is starting to look like it’s not happening this year; if ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 3 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Lincoln year-to-date sales are trailing Buick 93,159 to 137,235. I think that is significant because it seems Lincoln competes with Buick/Infinity/Volvo more than it does with Mercedes/BMW/Audi/Cadillac/Lexus currently. Heavy truck (F-650 and 750) and stripped chassis sales are at 'why bother' levels, but the E series is still showing amazing resilience. Maybe it's possible Ford could update the E series with a Transit style cab on the existing chassis? The cheapest Buick starts at $23,700 (Envista). That is a lower price than the cheapest Ford badged product at $23,920 (Maverick). How does Buick compete with Lincoln? Heavy Trucks, though not in great volume, allow Ford to monetize F-Series, Transit, and E-Series as buyers of the Heavy Trucks will also stay in the Ford globe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Lincoln year-to-date sales are trailing Buick 93,159 to 137,235. I think that is significant because it seems Lincoln competes with Buick/Infinity/Volvo more than it does with Mercedes/BMW/Audi/Cadillac/Lexus currently. Not even close. Buick is no better than Ford and sells more because of price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 10 minutes ago, ausrutherford said: The cheapest Buick starts at $23,700 (Envista). That is a lower price than the cheapest Ford badged product at $23,920 (Maverick). How does Buick compete with Lincoln? Heavy Trucks, though not in great volume, allow Ford to monetize F-Series, Transit, and E-Series as buyers of the Heavy Trucks will also stay in the Ford globe. The Buick Enclave is priced slightly below the Lincoln Nautilus, but the Lincoln has more standard features. Similar price relationship between the Envision and Corsair. That's most of the volume between the two makes. Of course Lincoln still has the Navigator, but most Buick dealers sell GMC's too so they have the Yukon Denali. Buick does indeed have the price leader Envista which Lincoln does not have. Lincoln has no answer to the Cadillac CT4, CT5, Lyriq, and Celestiq. The theory that sales of the larger Ford commercial truck have a positive impact on light duty commercial trucks sales has been discussed at length in the 'Light And Medium Duty News' forum. Though it was true in the past I think it has little bearing in this day and age, I can say from extensive personal experience that fleets are far more inclined to buy medium and heavy duty trucks from specialized commercial truck dealers as their support for large vehicles is generally so much better rather than 'full line' car/truck dealers. Remember most of the 'real' Ford commercial truck dealers drifted away from Ford when Ford left the heavy truck market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 (edited) 27 minutes ago, akirby said: Not even close. Buick is no better than Ford and sells more because of price. Lincoln is no better than Ford and doesn't sell because of price! But seriously Buick does have some very nice upper-mid crossovers and is doing well in quality. I am hopeful Ford will once again make Lincoln a contender in the high-end market, but for now they are what Mercury was- some nicely trimmed Fords. Lincoln also needs their own dealers, these days they are typically pushed off to the corner of some Ford showroom. Edited December 11, 2024 by 7Mary3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 3 hours ago, Rick73 said: I’m not sure how much of an improvement or upgrade would result. No doubt E-Series cab is ancient, but IMO the worst features are in large part due to chassis and having engine pushed back so far. Upgrading to Transit-style cab would not accomplish much for me if the engine doghouse is still so wide and back. And if Ford can move engine forward and make doghouse narrower, they should do it anyway even with existing E-Series cab. One of the reasons I don’t like Transit is that seats are closer together than on my E-350, so if engine remained as at present relative to front axle, there would be no room to squeeze between seats and doghouse. I was hoping the 2026 E-Series would be revised similar to Chevy Express for improved cab space and access, but it is starting to look like it’s not happening this year; if ever. Agreed, maybe Ford could use Transit doors, dash, seats, etc., on a wider cab for the E series. Address the ergomonic issues and update the styling. Maybe get the Powerstroke back into them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan20 Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 (edited) 11 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Lincoln is no better than Ford and doesn't sell because of price! Yea, Lincoln's future in the U.S. seems uncertain despite the sales growth in 2024 from a low point the year before. The big shot at Lincoln, some lady named Dianne, is clueless Edited December 11, 2024 by morgan20 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 15 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Lincoln year-to-date sales are trailing Buick 93,159 to 137,235. I think that is significant because it seems Lincoln competes with Buick/Infinity/Volvo more than it does with Mercedes/BMW/Audi/Cadillac/Lexus currently. Heavy truck (F-650 and 750) and stripped chassis sales are at 'why bother' levels, but the E series is still showing amazing resilience. Maybe it's possible Ford could update the E series with a Transit style cab on the existing chassis? 11 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Lincoln is no better than Ford and doesn't sell because of price! But seriously Buick does have some very nice upper-mid crossovers and is doing well in quality. I am hopeful Ford will once again make Lincoln a contender in the high-end market, but for now they are what Mercury was- some nicely trimmed Fords. Lincoln also needs their own dealers, these days they are typically pushed off to the corner of some Ford showroom. As has been pointed out, much of Buick's sales come from lower priced models, so Lincoln's ATPs are much higher. To say Lincoln is still at the Mercury level of distinction from Ford products is laughable. They've also been working on separating Lincoln from Ford showrooms. That said, while the brand has been doing better, they need additional products/investment now that the redesign cycle is complete for a lot of the lineup for the next couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 12 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Lincoln is no better than Ford and doesn't sell because of price! Say what? Lincoln’s are on par or better than other luxury brands for the last decade. You must not have been in one recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 2 hours ago, rmc523 said: As has been pointed out, much of Buick's sales come from lower priced models, so Lincoln's ATPs are much higher. Buick Is GM’s Budget Brand Now, Not Chevy Average Buick Sells for Less Than the Average Chevrolet Quote This year, General Motors’ mainstream brand sold cars for higher prices than one of its luxury brands. In the third quarter, the average Chevrolet buyer spent $48,074 on their new car. The average Buick buyer spent $36,590. The numbers come from Kelley Blue Book parent company Cox Automotive’s third quarter sales reports, pointing to some strategy confusion at America’s largest automaker. I'm guessing this partly due to how much the Silverado sells for and Buick not selling a truck. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 55 minutes ago, Sherminator98 said: Buick Is GM’s Budget Brand Now, Not Chevy Average Buick Sells for Less Than the Average Chevrolet I'm guessing this partly due to how much the Silverado sells for and Buick not selling a truck. Lies, damn lies and statistics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 3 hours ago, akirby said: Say what? Lincoln’s are on par or better than other luxury brands for the last decade. You must not have been in one recently. That was a joke. Good point about high priced truck sales influencing a make's ATP. Keep in mind GMC's average transaction price is just about even with Lincoln's, and I expect GMC to pass Lincoln as the Hummer sales increase. And that includes 1000's of 4500 series cutaway chassis GMC unloads on Penske every year for next to nothing (no idea why they are not Chevy's). Does Lincoln offer any product on a platform not shared with Ford? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 2 hours ago, Sherminator98 said: Buick Is GM’s Budget Brand Now, Not Chevy Average Buick Sells for Less Than the Average Chevrolet I'm guessing this partly due to how much the Silverado sells for and Buick not selling a truck. For reference, (while acknowledging this is a report from last year), that ATP for the entire brand of $36,590.00 is below the starting price of Lincoln's smallest/base model - Corsair, which currently starts at $39,485.00. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said: Keep in mind GMC's average transaction price is just about even with Lincoln's, and I expect GMC to pass Lincoln as the Hummer sales increase. And what do you think F series ATP is compared to Lincoln? Apples and oranges. 1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said: Does Lincoln offer any product on a platform not shared with Ford? And why does that matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 2 hours ago, akirby said: Lies, damn lies and statistics. OK, humor me. Exactly what statement(s) in the articles that were linked are "lies"? HRG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted December 11, 2024 Share Posted December 11, 2024 19 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: The Buick Enclave is priced slightly below the Lincoln Nautilus, but the Lincoln has more standard features. Similar price relationship between the Envision and Corsair. That's most of the volume between the two makes. Of course Lincoln still has the Navigator, but most Buick dealers sell GMC's too so they have the Yukon Denali. Buick does indeed have the price leader Envista which Lincoln does not have. Lincoln has no answer to the Cadillac CT4, CT5, Lyriq, and Celestiq. The theory that sales of the larger Ford commercial truck have a positive impact on light duty commercial trucks sales has been discussed at length in the 'Light And Medium Duty News' forum. Though it was true in the past I think it has little bearing in this day and age, I can say from extensive personal experience that fleets are far more inclined to buy medium and heavy duty trucks from specialized commercial truck dealers as their support for large vehicles is generally so much better rather than 'full line' car/truck dealers. Remember most of the 'real' Ford commercial truck dealers drifted away from Ford when Ford left the heavy truck market. Buick Enclave is a three-row crossover and is more in line in size to the Aviator. Enclave's starting price is $45,000. The starting price for the Aviator is $53,340. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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