The Ford Mustang Mach-E Handily Outsold The Gas Mustang In 2024

[ESP08]

44 minutes ago, akirby said:

The styling changes are subtle and most buyers wouldn’t care.  Price and a general decline in that market (and the fact it’s middle of winter) are much more likely root causes.

 

The styling changes aren't subtle.   

Price went up by ~$2K and we have full year data showing a loss of 10,000 units on a refresh year.   

Economic and inflationary conditions are largely similar to 2023

 

The 4 year old C8 sold in comparable volume to the S650 and they sell for $20K+ more on average

 

From the market's perspective something changed significantly from the 2023 to the 2024 Mustang and it wasn't:

- the economy

- inflation 

- price

- locked ECU (Corvette also has locked ECU) 

 

That leaves styling as the likely root cause for the loss of curb appeal and thus interest. 

 

 

Edited January 17 by ESP08

[akirby]

So you think someone who loves the s550 looks at the s650 and says ugh I don’t like the styling I won’t buy one?  Really?  Other than the headlights the differences are minor to most buyers.  I’m sure there are some enthusiasts who obsess over the tiniest details but that’s not most buyers.

[DeluxeStang]

8 minutes ago, akirby said:

So you think someone who loves the s550 looks at the s650 and says ugh I don’t like the styling I won’t buy one?  Really?  Other than the headlights the differences are minor to most buyers.  I’m sure there are some enthusiasts who obsess over the tiniest details but that’s not most buyers.

I see where you're coming from. I will say this, I hope s650 as much as I like certain things about it, is gonna be a relatively short generation 5-7 years, not close to 10 like the s550 was. Purely due to the fact that the changes made to the design were relatively mild. 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, ESP08 said:

 

The styling changes aren't subtle.   

Price went up by ~$2K and we have full year data showing a loss of 10,000 units on a refresh year.   

Economic and inflationary conditions are largely similar to 2023

 

The 4 year old C8 sold in comparable volume to the S650 and they sell for $20K+ more on average

 

From the market's perspective something changed significantly from the 2023 to the 2024 Mustang and it wasn't:

- the economy

- inflation 

- price

- locked ECU (Corvette also has locked ECU) 

 

That leaves styling as the likely root cause for the loss of curb appeal and thus interest. 

 

 

The way I see it, the s650 is just a more striking, exotic looking, and muscular s550. Really one of the only parts of the s650 that could have been better executed was the rear diffuser, it could have been integrated a bit sleeker. But I find it highly likely that Ford will tweak that with the refresh. The lower bumper cutout on the GTD looks better, I can see them applying that to the rest of the lineup. Tweak the rear bumper, and maybe the rear decklid/taillights, and it'll look better than a s550 from every angle. 

[akirby]

3 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

The way I see it, the s650 is just a more striking, exotic looking, and muscular s550. Really one of the only parts of the s650 that could have been better executed was the rear diffuser, it could have been integrated a bit sleeker. But I find it highly likely that Ford will tweak that with the refresh. The lower bumper cutout on the GTD looks better, I can see them applying that to the rest of the lineup. Tweak the rear bumper, and maybe the rear decklid/taillights, and it'll look better than a s550 from every angle. 

Obviously some will have a preference for one or the other.  I just don’t see anything in the s650 that would cause a drop off in sales.  

[Havelock]

13 minutes ago, akirby said:

So you think someone who loves the s550 looks at the s650 and says ugh I don’t like the styling I won’t buy one?  Really?  Other than the headlights the differences are minor to most buyers.  I’m sure there are some enthusiasts who obsess over the tiniest details but that’s not most buyers.

Yes.  Sales were down in 2024 even though the Camaro and Challenger stopped production in 2023.  Looks are an issue.  It looks like they raised the hood and erased all of the fine details along the sides from the s550 so it looks like a cheap knock off...hence the Camaro comparisons.

[DeluxeStang]

9 minutes ago, akirby said:

Obviously some will have a preference for one or the other.  I just don’t see anything in the s650 that would cause a drop off in sales.  

It kinda seems like the same thing that happened with the 6th Gen Camaro. The styling simply hasn't changed enough to draw more people in. The designers said they wanted to lower the roof and the beltline a lot, but it would have been too expensive. My guess is that's something we'll see with the next generation.

[akirby]

2 minutes ago, Havelock said:

Yes.  Sales were down in 2024 even though the Camaro and Challenger stopped production in 2023.  Looks are an issue.  It looks like they raised the hood and erased all of the fine details along the sides from the s550 so it looks like a cheap knock off...hence the Camaro comparisons.

You do understand there are lots of other factors?

 

s550 debuted in 2015.  What caused the drop I. Sales every year from 2015 through 2022?  In comparison the drop in 2024 was negligible.
 

[DeluxeStang]

9 minutes ago, Havelock said:

Yes.  Sales were down in 2024 even though the Camaro and Challenger stopped production in 2023.  Looks are an issue.  It looks like they raised the hood and erased all of the fine details along the sides from the s550 so it looks like a cheap knock off...hence the Camaro comparisons.

The side surfacing of the s650 is actually more striking and exotic looking than the side of the s550. But you only see that in person. It doesn't really translate as well to a 2D format. 

[02MustangGT]

13 minutes ago, akirby said:

Obviously some will have a preference for one or the other.  I just don’t see anything in the s650 that would cause a drop off in sales.  

Perhaps the minor exterior changes were not enough to move the needle for those in the market.  I, for one, would like to see a proper full redesign at some point…but I do understand the budget will not allow for that due to the current volume/market.  

[akirby]

Just now, 02MustangGT said:

Perhaps the minor exterior changes were not enough to move the needle for those in the market.  I, for one, would like to see a proper full redesign at some point…but I do understand the budget will not allow for that due to the current volume/market.  

Look at the sales chart above and explain the drop in sales from 2015 through 2022.  It certainly wasn’t styling changes.

[02MustangGT]

31 minutes ago, akirby said:

Look at the sales chart above and explain the drop in sales from 2015 through 2022.  It certainly wasn’t styling changes.

I didn’t mention “drop in sales from 2015 through 2022” in my comment.  I couldn’t care less if the drop in sales is due to the market, pricing or whatever.  One would think that an “all new” redesigned Mustang would result in increased sales over the outgoing model.  It didn’t.  That tells me that the mild styling changes did not result in renewed interest (even with the primary competition exiting the market).  

Edited January 17 by 02MustangGT

[jpd80]

I have no proof but something tells me that no amount of change would pump prime Mustang sales. If Ford wants to keep it around, they really need a second vehicle at Flat Rock to keep enough volume for at least one shift.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, 02MustangGT said:

I didn’t mention “drop in sales from 2015 through 2022” in my comment.  I couldn’t care less if the drop in sales is due to the market, pricing or whatever.  One would think that an “all new” redesigned Mustang would result in increased sales over the outgoing model.  It didn’t.  That tells me that the mild styling changes did not result in renewed interest (even with the primary competition exiting the market).  

Styling changes wouldn’t make much difference.  And they already have the best powertrains so nothing to change there that would help.  It is what it is until Ford drops pricing.  But as was stated previously by morgan20 - they probably don’t want more sales due to CAFE.

[jpd80]

27 minutes ago, akirby said:

Styling changes wouldn’t make much difference.  And they already have the best powertrains so nothing to change there that would help.  It is what it is until Ford drops pricing.  But as was stated previously by morgan20 - they probably don’t want more sales due to CAFE.

Those Mustang buyers pretty much know what they want and apart for the new Ecoboost models, I don’t think Thers much that could be done with Mustang.

 

Now if Ford was to consider building another car at Flat Rock, maybe the C2 Zephyr?

Just a thought that links back with a recent discussion - you may/may not agree with above as it may not add enough volume to justify inclusion which is another issue…

[Deanh]

34 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Those Mustang buyers pretty much know what they want and apart for the new Ecoboost models, I don’t think Thers much that could be done with Mustang.

 

Now if Ford was to consider building another car at Flat Rock, maybe the C2 Zephyr?

Just a thought that links back with a recent discussion - you may/may not agree with above as it may not add enough volume to justify inclusion which is another issue…

FYI...they just trade marked "BOSS"...........

[02MustangGT]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

Styling changes wouldn’t make much difference.  And they already have the best powertrains so nothing to change there that would help.  It is what it is until Ford drops pricing.  But as was stated previously by morgan20 - they probably don’t want more sales due to CAFE.

It’s not due to CAFE either according to Said Deep (it’s due to supply constraints if you recall).  Folks can speculate all they want, but Ford would gladly sell every Mustang (Mach-E included) they can build.  There are many factors for the decline in sales for an “all new model”.  

Edited January 18 by 02MustangGT

[Rick73]

On 1/15/2025 at 8:52 PM, akirby said:

Cheap cars outsell expensive versions.  Who knew?

Henry? 😀

 

On 1/15/2025 at 8:52 PM, akirby said:

Ford doesn’t want to sell more mustangs - they want to sell less but at higher and more profitable price points due to CAFE.  Selling more at lower profit margins makes no sense.

In that case better find a way around CAFE limitations so selling higher volume makes sense.

[Rick73]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Look at the sales chart above and explain the drop in sales from 2015 through 2022.  It certainly wasn’t styling changes.

New design usually attracts buyers, but after initial excitement, cost/value plays a major role as we all know.  IMO data in link below addresses your question for the most part.  Comparing the Mustang GT Premium Fastback over recent years it appears higher prices correlate with lower sales.  I’m not questioning whether Ford should or should not lower prices, or even if they can.  My personal preference is that Mustang not be allowed to become irrelevant or worse extinct.

 

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/mustang-prices-through-the-years

Edited January 17 by Rick73

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, 02MustangGT said:

Perhaps the minor exterior changes were not enough to move the needle for those in the market.  I, for one, would like to see a proper full redesign at some point…but I do understand the budget will not allow for that due to the current volume/market.  

To be fair, it's been this way with mustang for decades. A big design change, followed by another generation with similar styling, so two similar back to back generations, then another big leap in terms of design. It was that way with the mid 90s and the new edge mustangs, the '05-'09, and 2010-14 cars, and now s550 and s650. 

 

My guess is whatever follows s650 will take another huge leap in design. 

[T-dubz]

2 hours ago, Deanh said:

FYI...they just trade marked "BOSS"...........

Can’t wait for the suv EV version. BOSS-E sounds like a good name 😆

[02MustangGT]

15 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

To be fair, it's been this way with mustang for decades. A big design change, followed by another generation with similar styling, so two similar back to back generations, then another big leap in terms of design. It was that way with the mid 90s and the new edge mustangs, the '05-'09, and 2010-14 cars, and now s550 and s650. 

 

My guess is whatever follows s650 will take another huge leap in design. 

I don’t understand the logic.  The s650 is considered a 7th generation Mustang.  It’s the only generation in the history of the Mustang that has carried over the greenhouse.  So yeah, like it or not, it’s a refresh (even the interior outside of the IP/dash is mostly carryover).  Look, I love the s650 and think it’s better than the “previous gen”, but I am hoping for something more revolutionary in the next gen design.  

[akirby]

3 hours ago, 02MustangGT said:

It’s not due to CAFE either according to Said Deep (it’s due to supply constraints if you recall).  Folks can speculate all they want, but Ford would gladly sell every Mustang (Mach-E included) they can build.  There are many factors for the decline in sales for an “all new model”.  

Morgan20 showed the calculations that prove every Mustang is CAFE negative meaning it has to be offset by other vehicles.  Ford would never admit that publicly.  Publicly they said they thought sales and pricing were in a sweet spot.  Read between the lines.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

In that case better find a way around CAFE limitations so selling higher volume makes sense.

So what’s your solution if it’s that simple?

[02MustangGT]

48 minutes ago, akirby said:

Morgan20 showed the calculations that prove every Mustang is CAFE negative meaning it has to be offset by other vehicles.  Ford would never admit that publicly.  Publicly they said they thought sales and pricing were in a sweet spot.  Read between the lines.

Why wouldn’t Ford admit to CAFE regulations being the only factor in not building/selling more Mustangs.  I will trust a factual source and Ford execs over a random post on an Internet forum to draw my own conclusions (instead of “reading between the lines”).  

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-us-truck-suv-fuel-economy-rules-much-less-stringent-than-original-proposal-2024-06-07/
 

“Last year, NHTSA said its proposal to hike fuel economy standards through 2032 would cost the industry $14 billion in projected fines over a five-year-period. This includes $10.5 billion for the Detroit Three: $6.5 billion for General Motors, $3 billion for Chrysler parent Stellantis and $1 billion for Ford Motor.

Under the final rule, the auto industry is collectively expected to face a total of $1.83 billion in fines from 2027 through 2031 -- and it could be as little as nothing -- based on various models, NHTSA said.  NHTSA said GM could face $906 million in penalties through 2031, while Stellantis faces $368 million and Ford nothing.”