morgan20 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 8 hours ago, T-dubz said: According to this article, Ford doesn’t think pricing is an issue. https://www.motor1.com/news/747170/ford-mustang-priced-right-despite-low-sales/ Yea, while current Mustangs may have issues, pricing isn't one of them. The article confirmed what Sherminator mentioned in the previous post: In Ford's defense, the current Mustang's price is in line with those from 30 years ago, accounting for inflation. A 1995 Mustang GT coupe with standard equipment started around $21,500. That equals approximately $46,000 today, a bit less than the 2025 Mustang GT's starting price of $47,055. Also, the Ford big shot quoted in the article, Mustang brand manager Joe Bellino, is right: "With the EcoBoost starting in the low $30s and going up to the GTD, I can't think of another company that offers that kind of choice on a single model for buyers," Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pictor Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I don't think it's pricing, it is not enough people want a two door a daily driver to sit in urban traffic going nowhere fast. Baby boomers are not able get into a mustang like they used to . Corvette went up market even further and rear engine. The two major Japanese brands have hot hatches available specifically marketed to the go fast crowd. There will always be a market around the world for the Mustang, it just a smaller niche market. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 23 minutes ago, pictor said: I don't think it's pricing, it is not enough people want a two door a daily driver to sit in urban traffic going nowhere fast. Baby boomers are not able get into a mustang like they used to . Corvette went up market even further and rear engine. The two major Japanese brands have hot hatches available specifically marketed to the go fast crowd. There will always be a market around the world for the Mustang, it just a smaller niche market. The mustang being impractical has been a constant since it was first made, that’s not the reason. Adjusted for inflation, the mustangs price is roughly the same as 20 years ago. This does not mean that price can’t still be a deterring factor. Not everyone’s wages have increased at the same rate as inflation, so it could be more expensive to those consumers. It also doesn’t help that the price has increased so rapidly. In 2021 the mustang GT had an msrp of 36k. It’s now almost 50k. That’s a huge jump in a relatively short timeframe. For comparison, the rav4 had a starting price of 26k in 2021 and is now 28k. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 8 minutes ago, T-dubz said: The mustang being impractical has been a constant since it was first made, that’s not the reason. Adjusted for inflation, the mustangs price is roughly the same as 20 years ago. This does not mean that price can’t still be a deterring factor. Not everyone’s wages have increased at the same rate as inflation, so it could be more expensive to those consumers. It also doesn’t help that the price has increased so rapidly. In 2021 the mustang GT had an msrp of 36k. It’s now almost 50k. That’s a huge jump in a relatively short timeframe. For comparison, the rav4 had a starting price of 26k in 2021 and is now 28k. Depending on how far back we want to go, of course price is a factor. The original first generation Mustang that sold up to 10 times the annual rate cost far less adjusted for inflation. My dad paid just over $21k for a base first generation Mach 1. Not comparable to today’s Mustang in just about any way, but the point remains that from price alone it was closer to what a Civic or Corolla costs today. It was more affordable to the masses. pictor above touched on another Mustang headwind; that it’s become associated with the “go fast crowd”. Not that it’s necessarily a bad thing, but represents a small percentage of population, and becoming smaller. When Ford markets Mustang to young males who we all know intend to drive aggressively, it turns off a lot of other potential buyers. It’s no different than if you market a car to women, a lot of men will pass on it. Marketing creates an image that works both ways. Can’t think of a better example than a minivan. Arguably one of the best vehicle designs ever created but most people today wouldn’t get caught dead in one. Similarly, while I love Mustang history, I would not want to be seen driving a new one today. The image it represents is nothing like the original Mustangs. I don’t necessarily blame Ford, because a reboot to original Mustang roots may sell even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 53 minutes ago, T-dubz said: The mustang being impractical has been a constant since it was first made, that’s not the reason. Adjusted for inflation, the mustangs price is roughly the same as 20 years ago. This does not mean that price can’t still be a deterring factor. Not everyone’s wages have increased at the same rate as inflation, so it could be more expensive to those consumers. It also doesn’t help that the price has increased so rapidly. In 2021 the mustang GT had an msrp of 36k. It’s now almost 50k. That’s a huge jump in a relatively short timeframe. For comparison, the rav4 had a starting price of 26k in 2021 and is now 28k. But why aren't you even considering the Ecoboost Mustang in pricing at all? The GT is a "premier" trim level, so of course its going to cost more. Not to mention the impact to CAFE and whatnot, so Ford is going to charge a premium to cut back on sales on it. The RAV4 is a massed produced vehicle that sells I think almost a million units a year world wide with a shared platform-pricing wouldn't impact it as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Supply (price) is not the issue. In fact, Ford is restricting supply in a big way. Flat Rock can pump out a lot more Mustang. The problem facing Mustang is demand. End of story. It's the same issue facing all other OEMs that used to sell coupes and convertible. The only one immune to this trend is Porsche because they've built up a really big halo on the 911 and Boxster/Cayman line. And that's what Farley is trying to do with Mustang... more upper end performance variants that actually generates demand for the entire model range. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 15 minutes ago, Sherminator98 said: But why aren't you even considering the Ecoboost Mustang in pricing at all? The GT is a "premier" trim level, so of course its going to cost more. Not to mention the impact to CAFE and whatnot, so Ford is going to charge a premium to cut back on sales on it. The RAV4 is a massed produced vehicle that sells I think almost a million units a year world wide with a shared platform-pricing wouldn't impact it as much. The ecoboost is irrelevant since I was comparing prices of the GT. But an ecoboost mustang started at 27k in 2021 and is now 32k. The rav4 was used to show that not all vehicles had a massive price increase. But you can do the same with the corvette. It had an msrp of 61k in 2021 and a msrp 70k now. The mustang GT price increased 38% while the corvette increased 15%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 8 minutes ago, bzcat said: Supply (price) is not the issue. In fact, Ford is restricting supply in a big way. Flat Rock can pump out a lot more Mustang. The problem facing Mustang is demand. End of story. It's the same issue facing all other OEMs that used to sell coupes and convertible. The only one immune to this trend is Porsche because they've built up a really big halo on the 911 and Boxster/Cayman line. And that's what Farley is trying to do with Mustang... more upper end performance variants that actually generates demand for the entire model range. If ford wants to compete with Porsche, it needs a new model. The mustang is a pony car and should stay that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: Depending on how far back we want to go, of course price is a factor. The original first generation Mustang that sold up to 10 times the annual rate cost far less adjusted for inflation. My dad paid just over $21k for a base first generation Mach 1. Not comparable to today’s Mustang in just about any way, but the point remains that from price alone it was closer to what a Civic or Corolla costs today. It was more affordable to the masses. pictor above touched on another Mustang headwind; that it’s become associated with the “go fast crowd”. Not that it’s necessarily a bad thing, but represents a small percentage of population, and becoming smaller. When Ford markets Mustang to young males who we all know intend to drive aggressively, it turns off a lot of other potential buyers. It’s no different than if you market a car to women, a lot of men will pass on it. Marketing creates an image that works both ways. Can’t think of a better example than a minivan. Arguably one of the best vehicle designs ever created but most people today wouldn’t get caught dead in one. Similarly, while I love Mustang history, I would not want to be seen driving a new one today. The image it represents is nothing like the original Mustangs. I don’t necessarily blame Ford, because a reboot to original Mustang roots may sell even worse. Ridiculous. It’s not 1964 when cars had am radios and nothing else. And I see just as many females driving mustangs as males. Your views on why people want or don’t want certain vehicles are just wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 14 minutes ago, T-dubz said: If ford wants to compete with Porsche, it needs a new model. The mustang is a pony car and should stay that. They are not competing with Porsche. They are replicating that business model at a lower price point. If you are not selling as many units as before but you have to keep the model for other reasons (it's part of Ford's icon line up), you have to generate more profit per unit and you have to try to keep as many diehards as possible. In the Mustang context, that means more V8 and more niche performance models that people are willing to pay. And less rental car spec convertibles. Mustang has to become a coveted car not just an affordable sports car. That's where GTD and Darkhorse come in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 4 hours ago, Sherminator98 said: The Price increases on the Mustang aren't out of line for the rest of the industry either. There are lots of people looking with rose colored glasses on pricing with every/anything today...it boils down to sticker shock but everything goes up in price. I bought a couch over the weekend-the sales guy was telling me a story that people bought a hand made mattress that was say 5K 30 years ago and go oh shit when the same thing costs 20K+ now, without realizing they haven't had to buy a mattress for that long-your typical mattress only lasts about 7-10 years if your lucky I remember looking at Mustang GTs in 1992 or so and them only being 14K and 32 years later, a base 2024 GT starts at $42K, with more then double the HP and far better standard equipment on it. The CPI calculator says that 14K in 1992 is worth about 31.5K in todays dollars. Even if the Mustang pricing dropped, I wouldn't expect a huge increase in sales numbers. I'm guessing that the Mustang is profitable at the point it is at-the platform has been more or less paid for since it is a modified platform from 20 years ago when the S197 came out. The IRS update was done 10 years ago, so everything now is just about improving/tweaking it. I mostly want to see proportional changes, longer wheelbase, shorter overhangs, it just looks better and more upmarket. I don't know if Ford can do that without changing the platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 11 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: I mostly want to see proportional changes, longer wheelbase, shorter overhangs, it just looks better and more upmarket. I don't know if Ford can do that without changing the platform. If they keep the current platform (which I imagine they will), the hard points will dictate what they can, and cannot, do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan20 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 1 hour ago, bzcat said: And that's what Farley is trying to do with Mustang... more upper end performance variants that actually generates demand for the entire model range. Hopefully the head honcho also plans to add electric versions of Mustang coupe and vert at the upper end performance variant side of things. Yea, I know it's not nearly as important as gettin' next gen F-150 Lightning or Mach-E ready, but if Jimbo is as serious about keepin' Mustang coupe/vert alive as an iconic product, Ford can't dilly dally for years and years on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 35 minutes ago, akirby said: Ridiculous. It’s not 1964 when cars had am radios and nothing else. And I see just as many females driving mustangs as males. Your views on why people want or don’t want certain vehicles are just wrong. What’s ridiculous is that you don’t take the time to read a post before reacting. I stated clearly that original Mustang was not comparable at all, and THAT is part of why today’s Mustang is not as affordable. I stand by that because the numbers are what they are. I still have the goddamn window sticker to prove it, so disagree all you want. Good luck getting Mustang back to 600,000 a year with cars only the 1 percenters can buy. And also to be clear, I did not imply Ford markets Mustang to males more than women, though they may. What I stated, and believe, is that marketing to drifting crowd may appeal to some, but also turns off others who see drifting in a very poor light. I’m sure you disagree with that also. I DONT HAVE TO AGREE WITH ANY POINT OF VIEW TO KNOW IT EXISTS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Another issue that may or may not be a problem is you no longer need a sports car to go fast. EVs can accelerate faster while still providing all the space, functionality, and creature comforts of a SUV, truck, or sedan. And today’s ICE trucks and SUVs are not too far off from sports cars from a few years ago. F150, escape and explorer can all go 0 to 60 in mid to upper 5 second range. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasota Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 8 hours ago, akirby said: Ridiculous. It’s not 1964 when cars had am radios and nothing else. And I see just as many females driving mustangs as males. Your views on why people want or don’t want certain vehicles are just wrong. Not entirely. When VW added the flower vase with a rose to the retro beetle’s dashboard it became dead to men but women went gaga over it. It was a brilliant marketing move if the goal was to sell only to women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 14 hours ago, T-dubz said: The mustang being impractical has been a constant since it was first made, that’s not the reason. Adjusted for inflation, the mustangs price is roughly the same as 20 years ago. This does not mean that price can’t still be a deterring factor. Not everyone’s wages have increased at the same rate as inflation, so it could be more expensive to those consumers. It also doesn’t help that the price has increased so rapidly. In 2021 the mustang GT had an msrp of 36k. It’s now almost 50k. That’s a huge jump in a relatively short timeframe. For comparison, the rav4 had a starting price of 26k in 2021 and is now 28k. I agree with you that the price is still a contributing factor. Even in 2023, the base price was still $39740. Now the price is $45,460, which I’m not even sure includes destination. That was only a little over a year ago. Very few people’s income is keeping up with that type of inflation and that amount will be noticeable on a payment. IMO, either Ford is intentionally trying to keep the sales numbers low for CAFE reasons, or they’ve just gotten carried away with the pricing. 12 hours ago, T-dubz said: If ford wants to compete with Porsche, it needs a new model. The mustang is a pony car and should stay that. I don’t mind if they make a new Mustang variant that falls under the namesake, but they need to keep the current model and add a more affordable high-performance model along the lines of the C8. The GTD isn’t even in the realm of affordable and therefore not particularly interesting to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 13 hours ago, T-dubz said: If ford wants to compete with Porsche, it needs a new model. The mustang is a pony car and should stay that. When they say they want to compete with Porsche, I believe they mean in terms of how Porsche has structured their lineup, Ford wants to mirror that. You got the s650, that's the 911, things like the GTD are Ford's GT3 RS, if they do a mustang raptor, it'll be like the off-road safari 911. The mach-e is the cayenne, you got the sedan, maybe they do something under the s650 and that's like Fords cayman. I personally believe the Corvette is more of a mustang rival than the 911, but I get why Ford makes the Porsche comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 8 hours ago, tbone said: I agree with you that the price is still a contributing factor. Even in 2023, the base price was still $39740. Now the price is $45,460, which I’m not even sure includes destination. That was only a little over a year ago. Very few people’s income is keeping up with that type of inflation and that amount will be noticeable on a payment. IMO, either Ford is intentionally trying to keep the sales numbers low for CAFE reasons, or they’ve just gotten carried away with the pricing. Why did you skip 2024? The price went up to $42,860 that year. Using the CPI calculator from November 22 to November 24, the 2023 price works out to $42,166.62. Once again EVERYTHING has gotten more expensive over the past couple years and the past 4 years or so have been the worst for inflation that I can remember in my lifetime. The base price for a Mustang GT is still under the Average cost of a new car, so IMO that makes it "affordable" though for the vast majority of people it is not very practical and they'd rather spend that same $45K on a say an Explorer or something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 On 1/12/2025 at 7:18 PM, morgan20 said: When did the head honcho say Ford would never make an all electric Mustang coupe? You are right that if he did say something like that, it's head scratching. Ol' Billy Boy said in the Detroit News video that Ford is working hard to keep Mustang coupe fresh and relevant. That suggests Ford should be bringin' an all electric Mustang coupe out sooner rather than later. I wouldn't expect anything anytime soon-it all depends on how the EV market grows and how the CE1 is accepted in the market. The CE1 might be a great product, but at the same time I have my doubts that it is actually as flexible as people are assuming it is. If I was wagering a bet on an EV Mustang Coupe, I'd say we are at least 5 years out. But at the same time it all depends on what Ford is going to do with the Mach E going forward-does it get moved to the CE1 platform anytime soon? There are rumors of other variants of the Mach E but Ford has basically gone radio silent on pretty much any future plans outside of the CE1 and T3 EV projects, which going by some rumors I've seen (like the CE1 being a pickup and not a CUV or sedan) makes me wonder if people are conflating rumors together, but IMO it would make just about zero sense to have two EV Pickups similar in size to one another to compete with more or less the same buyer, if the CE1 is going to be a tweener between the Ranger and Maverick and the T3 being F-150 sized. The only thing that might make sense is labeling the smaller pickup as part of the Bronco lineup, which would help with the separation of the market. I'm hoping Ford still puts out guidance like they said they where after cancelling the 3 row EVs, which is supposed to happen early this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Radio silence and no concepts or any sort of future vision outside of "trust us!" is annoying. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 12 hours ago, Texasota said: Not entirely. When VW added the flower vase with a rose to the retro beetle’s dashboard it became dead to men but women went gaga over it. It was a brilliant marketing move if the goal was to sell only to women. New Beetle was always more attractive to women even without the vase. But saying that having a GTD or Dark Horse Mustang would prevent people who otherwise like it from buying an ecoboost is ridiculous. If anything it makes it more desirable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan20 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 45 minutes ago, Sherminator98 said: Ford has basically gone radio silent on pretty much any future plans outside of the CE1 and T3 EV projects 20 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Radio silence and no concepts or any sort of future vision outside of "trust us!" is annoying. Yea, as a former Ford & Visteon employee, I learned that whenever the company does the radio silence thing one should hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Ford current head honcho doesn't provide much confidence to hope for the best though 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 When the stock prices start dropping, then watch them share more info... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 1 hour ago, ANTAUS said: When the stock prices start dropping, then watch them share more info... But the stock price has been dropping, its around $10 a share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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