Ford To Cops: CV is Out

[Harley Lover]

Mentioned by sullynd and twintornadoes, but why not use the just-retired Taurus sheetmetal (with a different name) for this market, or even the Five Hundred sheetmetal? I know the D chassis was upgraded for MKS/Taurus/Flex duty, but couldn't the older sheetmetal be made to work? If Ford is determined to use this chassis for PI duty, this would be a way to do so, while not compromising the marketplace for the new Taurus.

[jpd80]

In your dreams, maybe.

 

Ford has stated that EcoBoost will be available in most of their passenger vehicles in 6 cylinder and 4 cylinder powertrains.

 

Why failing to sell a CV replacement would leave "Ecoboost is dead in the water" is curious.

 

Please give us details on your remarkable conclusion.

Ah, my fault Ed, I was a bit too general in what I said.

I have a good source that tell me that AWD to police departments has been an extremely awkward sell.

If that is the case then an Ecoboost police interceptor is dead in the water, the SHO price is too high.

I did not mean all of Ford's Ecoboost is dead in the water.

 

Others here saying or thinking that PDs will all just switch to Tahoes is erroneous as spending

the PD budgets on larger more expensive vehicles cannot be justified. If it was, I'm sure Ford

would have upgraded the panther long ago.

 

It's a tricky one indeed as Ford has backed the FWD/AWD product all the way on this one,

could we be about to see a change in stance, maybe something else could be offered as well?

 

Edit,

The vehicle I'm thinking of would be something like the near future CD4 with Ecoboost and AWD,

a larger longer wheelbase version of the Fusion if you will - something with a better price point.

Maybe even a V8 AWD....(sacriledge.)

Edited August 30, 2009 by jpd80

[rmc523]

In your dreams, maybe.

 

Ford has stated that EcoBoost will be available in most of their passenger vehicles in 6 cylinder and 4 cylinder powertrains.

 

Why failing to sell a CV replacement would leave "Ecoboost is dead in the water" is curious.

 

Please give us details on your remarkable conclusion.

 

I could be wrong, but I think he meant dead in the water for LEO use.

 

That's what I was thinking as well.

 

Also, he could've meant in applications thus far, since the only one is the 3.5 which requires AWD. Future applications geared more toward efficiency will have less power, and therefore (I would think) would not require AWD.

[jpd80]

That's what I was thinking as well.

 

Also, he could've meant in applications thus far, since the only one is the 3.5 which requires AWD. Future applications geared more toward efficiency will have less power, and therefore (I would think) would not require AWD.

Exactly, I didn't make the linkage between selling AWD, Ecoboost V6 and police interceptor clear.

 

The big problem is giving PDs a cost effective vehicle with the features they want...

[Edstock]

The big problem is giving PDs a cost effective vehicle with the features they want...

Yes indeed.

 

I wonder why a CV with the 3.5 EcoBoost and a 6-speed is so impossible? The police get to keep something they are happy with, and they get better fuel economy and performance. They could even do the 4 cylinder EcoBoost, for urban use, considering the 2-v 4.6 is around 230hp. With a lighter 4-cylinder and a 6-speed, performance shouldn't suffer compared to the V-8.

 

So, for not a lot of money, Ford keeps a lock on the market, and doesn't threaten the resale value of their new vehicles. The wizards proclaim it's impossible; I must be missing something.

 

My 2¢

[twintornados]

Mentioned by sullynd and twintornadoes, but why not use the just-retired Taurus sheetmetal (with a different name) for this market, or even the Five Hundred sheetmetal? I know the D chassis was upgraded for MKS/Taurus/Flex duty, but couldn't the older sheetmetal be made to work? If Ford is determined to use this chassis for PI duty, this would be a way to do so, while not compromising the marketplace for the new Taurus.

 

The old Five Hundred style would have made a perfect police/taxi unit....But I suggest that it be renamed 500...instead of spelling out "Five Hundred".

[jpd80]

Yes indeed.

 

I wonder why a CV with the 3.5 EcoBoost and a 6-speed is so impossible? The police get to keep something they are happy with, and they get better fuel economy and performance. They could even do the 4 cylinder EcoBoost, for urban use, considering the 2-v 4.6 is around 230hp. With a lighter 4-cylinder and a 6-speed, performance shouldn't suffer compared to the V-8.

 

So, for not a lot of money, Ford keeps a lock on the market, and doesn't threaten the resale value of their new vehicles. The wizards proclaim it's impossible; I must be missing something.

 

My 2¢

Good thoughts,

If FNA used the Falcon Turbo I-6 engine and SLA front suspension, the CV could easily go AWD.

The Territory's front differential is incorporated in I-6's engine's sump in both NA and Turbo versions.

There's an opportunity to play mix and match parts here that GM could only dream about.

At least Ford has plenty of options no matter what they end up chosing.

Edited August 30, 2009 by jpd80

[tzach]

Yes indeed.

 

I wonder why a CV with the 3.5 EcoBoost and a 6-speed is so impossible? The police get to keep something they are happy with, and they get better fuel economy and performance. They could even do the 4 cylinder EcoBoost, for urban use, considering the 2-v 4.6 is around 230hp. With a lighter 4-cylinder and a 6-speed, performance shouldn't suffer compared to the V-8.

 

So, for not a lot of money, Ford keeps a lock on the market, and doesn't threaten the resale value of their new vehicles. The wizards proclaim it's impossible; I must be missing something.

 

My 2¢

I think using the 3.5 Ecoboost and six speed is a good idea but I think some have pointed out that all the systems in the cv are not shared with other Ford cars making them more expensive. The other idea I read here that I think is brilliant is to use the 09 Taurus or 500 sheet metal on the updated platform under a different name. I wonder if any one at Ford thought of this and if there is any reason it could not be done with a minimal investment. Is the tooling for that sheet metal destroyed yet?

[Noah Harbinger]

You guys realize a lot of them are not even guilty of wrongdoing, right? Hence the term 'suspects.' Going further, a lot of witnesses and non-suspects are still taken in for questioning.

 

Every one of us is guilty of something

[sullynd]

The old Five Hundred style would have made a perfect police/taxi unit....But I suggest that it be renamed 500...instead of spelling out "Five Hundred".

 

I've seen a decent number of previous gen units as Taxi's in Chicago. Heck, they could even use the Montego body if they wanted (Sorry 2b2)

 

I always thought the 300 with a Magnum front clip would have made better sense as a cop car than the Charger.

 

Is Chicago still building Taurus X or has production ended for it?

Edited August 31, 2009 by sullynd

[rmc523]

I've seen a decent number of previous gen units as Taxi's in Chicago. Heck, they could even use the Montego body if they wanted (Sorry 2b2)

 

I always thought the 300 with a Magnum front clip would have made better sense as a cop car than the Charger.

 

Is Chicago still building Taurus X or has production ended for it?

 

 

 

http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2008...production.html

[2b2]

I've seen a decent number of previous gen units as Taxi's in Chicago. Heck, they could even use the Montego body if they wanted (Sorry 2b2)

 

I always thought the 300 with a Magnum front clip would have made better sense as a cop car than the Charger.

 

Is Chicago still building Taurus X or has production ended for it?

thanks for thinking of me, Sully

but since Merc ain't using it (or being ALLOWED to) I have no prob with some use being found...

 

...actually

some time ago I pondered the idea of Mercury getting exclusive use of the Panther platform (with hangover-ectomies as well as new drivetrains) so all copcars & limos would have become Mercs

tho I'd've had done retail models too

 

& since I didn't get around to posting in this thread earlier

 

this whole LEO/Taurus question is smoke imho**

cuz the Taurus won't be around (in its present form) that long

&

3 things

- didn't know Carbon called their car the E7

- 2012 is about when the Taurus goes to the CD/Eucd platform

- just in time for the E8 (Falcon/GRwdP) to come out

&

I want to know when the LEO boards get to pretest the Falcon...

...or did they already when those spypix came out last year???

 

 

** maybe the new Explorer (a Taurus sibling) will be a temporary spot-holder?

Edited August 31, 2009 by 2b2

[rmc523]

3 things

- didn't know Carbon called their car the E7

- 2012 is about when the Taurus goes to the CD/Eucd platform

- just in time for the E8 (Falcon/GRwdP) to come out

 

 

** maybe the new Explorer (a Taurus sibling) will be a temporary spot-holder?

 

Those 3 things are interesting....

 

 

And that's what I'm thinking is gonna happen (Explorer > police).

[ausrutherford]

thanks for thinking of me, Sully

but since Merc ain't using it (or being ALLOWED to) I have no prob with some use being found...

 

...actually

some time ago I pondered the idea of Mercury getting exclusive use of the Panther platform (with hangover-ectomies as well as new drivetrains) so all copcars & limos would have become Mercs

tho I'd've had done retail models too

 

& since I didn't get around to posting in this thread earlier

 

this whole LEO/Taurus question is smoke imho**

cuz the Taurus won't be around (in its present form) that long

&

3 things

- didn't know Carbon called their car the E7

- 2012 is about when the Taurus goes to the CD/Eucd platform

- just in time for the E8 (Falcon/GRwdP) to come out

&

I want to know when the LEO boards get to pretest the Falcon...

...or did they already when those spypix came out last year???

 

 

** maybe the new Explorer (a Taurus sibling) will be a temporary spot-holder?

 

I doubt the CD4 Taurus will be for MY12...maybe a facelift though.

[matthewq4b]

I would think that the weak link in FWD/RWD would be the outer CV joint as the inner CV joint front <> rear shouldn't have a major difference in articulation, nor would the front IRS ball joints be disadvantaged due to the presence of a drive shaft.

 

However, I do think (going to your other point) that the transverse engine placement & transaxle compact the space available for the suspension, which, in turn, limits what you can do as far as a severe service setup.

 

I don't think you could put in a severe service double wishbone suspension in the Taurus. I don't think you've got clearance for a decent sized sturdy upper arm. The CD3 has something like a double wishbone setup, but the upper arm looks pretty insubstantial.

 

 

CV joints are not issue strength wise or for durability as long as the boots are durable And increasing the load capacity of CV joints is not a major issue or that complicated.

 

The Taurus as sits would not take a double A arm but would have required a redesign of the chassis.

The CD3's Upper looks insubstantial but it is a forged piece and does the job of locating the spindle just fine.

 

Beefing up A Arms is a pretty minor thing to do it is not to hard to increase the diameter of the arms add bigger ball joints or fish plate the mounting locations for increased impact loading by better load distribution in to the chassis

 

 

The Revo Knuckle would be a good comprise it changes the way the loading forces are imparted on the upper strut mount and the strut it's self. The current parts may very be adequate if the spindle was changed to a revo. That right right now is practically the only way to beef up the Taurus's front suspension with out a major chassis change. It will not be as durable a double wish bone suspension but better than the current set up.

 

Road conditions here are pretty severe. For a number of reasons we do experience winter from late October till late March. Many side streets are not plowed at all for the whole winter leading to some pretty rough rods my the time late DEC rolls around. We get serious frost heaving in the spring and during the winter all roads her are tar patched about every 30 to 40ft so this leads to constant jarring of suspensions and is especially prevalent in the in the winter.

 

Most of the province is sat on a silt based clay that soaks up water and expands drastically when froze. It is not uncommon to get any where from 1 to 4" of heave at tar joints during the winter HWY 43 south of Grand Prairie is notorious for this in the winter with frost heaving up to 6" high at tar joints and can really beat the crap out of vehicles and passengers. Think of it like 6" high speed bumps every 40ft on a hyway that has a 70MPH speed limit Believe me it can be an interesting drive. The truckers by pass this section of HYW in the winter and take secondary back roads to access GP.

 

The running gag here is we have 2 seasons winter and road construction, major thorough fares are resurfaced on average every 3 to 4 years So each summer large portions of the city are perpetually in the midst of road construction.

 

So if suspension weaknesses are going to turn up in a vehicle they will do it here.

This part of the reason the local PD's pretty much use CV or P/U's or now more frequently the Tahoe for policing duties and why basically all the FWD and LX based cruisers have failed miserably as they literally get pounded to pieces.

Throw in to the mix 5 plus months of icy or ice covered roads and the FWD's lose even more points.

 

 

For now I think the interim fix for the D3's being used SS service will be to fit them with the modified MAC strut Revo knuckle suspension. It by no means is the perfect solution but it it should suffice enough to cover 70% of the policing applications that the Taurus will be called upon to full fill.

 

This why the CV has been so successful in the role of a cruiser as it is little more than a light duty truck chassis with a car body dropped on it.

 

The weight of the CV tips the scales at about 4050Lbs fitted as a cruiser in a vehicle that uses 20 year old weight reduction technologies. The New Taurus sits at about 3800LBS for a smaller car dimensionally with the latest in weight reduction tech including an all aluminum V6 compared to the CV's iron blocked V8 that alone pretty much makes up for the weight difference

Once you pass certain vehicle size there are weight penalties using unit construction.

 

Ford really only has a couple options beef the Taurus's front suspension (revo is the cheapest solution) to allow to fulfill the PI duties it can. Or just abandon the segment until a suitable replacement is built. Throwing the Taurus as is in to SS applications is only going to get Ford egg on it's face.

 

 

 

Matthew

[armadamaster]

Your mate P-71 no to happy on Autoblog.

Matt 3:05PM (8/28/2009)

 

And the failure that is Ford continues.

 

The new limp-wristed Taurus will NOT:

 

Be as reliable as the CV

Be as cheap to operate as the CV

Be as inexpensive to buy as the CV

Be as durable as the CV

 

^^Can't argue with the man when he's right.

 

And there is no way that Ford will offer a $38K sport sedan to police agencies. The police Taurus will be (under) powered by the 3.5 V6.

 

Touche'.

 

Matt 3:05PM (8/28/2009)

I think a lot of police agencies will opt for the Tahoe. MUCH better vehicle than the Taurus, it gets similar gas mileage as the other offerings (10-12 MPG) has a V8, has RWD, is just as fast as the CV, handles just as good as the CV, TONS more space, etc.

 

Matt 5:20PM (8/28/2009)

"Agencies ARE in fact snapping up the Tahoe for just that reason. It can haul ass, gear, K-9s, and people everywhere, MPG be damned. Plus it doesn't scream "cop car" so it's easier to nail traffic violators without being noticed. The Tahoe is an excellent option."

 

^^I somewhat disagree here, the Tahoe WILL be one of the options P.D.s will go for, but I believe it will get split with the Charger. Regardless, it won't be the Taurus getting that 80+% of the CV police sales.

 

When driven like a police car...the Impala, Crown Vic, Tahoe, V6/V8 Charger all get the same mileage...around 10-12 MPG.

 

More importantly....when idling.

 

And none of these options is as safe as the Panther including the Taurus. Panther only 75+ MPH high speed rear crash tests FTW, crumble zones be damned, here's some more numbers to hate me over:

 

The NHTSA gives the vic 5 stars in ALL crash categories: http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/saferc...0002fd17898RCRD

 

The 500/Taurus earned only 4-star for rollover: http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/saferc...0002fd17898RCRD

 

The Impala earns worse marks than either of the Fords: http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/saferc...0002fd17898RCRD

 

The Charger is no better than the WImpala:

http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/saferc...0002fd17898RCRD

Edited August 31, 2009 by Armada Master

[jpd80]

And none of these options is as safe as the Panther including the Taurus. Panther only 75+ MPH high speed rear crash tests FTW,

Some modern RWD cars have the gas tank forward of the rear axle so it doesn't incinerate the occupants.

[PREMiERdrum]

I just compared the specs of the E7 to a couple current Fords, and it seems to line up pretty well with the Falcon, bigger by around 100mm in most dimensions, but much closer than the Fusion or Taurus.

[rmc523]

More consipracy points (as discussed between myself and PREMiERdrum):

 

-Carbon is a "let's see what type of response we get" phantom brand created by Ford

-"Carbon," aka Ford will make a new GRWD police vehicle based on next-gen Falcon (E8) platform

-to eliminate cost prohibitions, this new platform/vehicle will be built at St. Thomas, former home of the Panthers

-this vehicle is actually part of Ford's bid for more concessions from the CAW:

---CAW would like to keep St. Thomas open; with Panthers dying, they've got no product - this product would be their new one, but would also bring GRWD back to life, best of all profitably because CAW would then grant Ford further concessions - it's the proverbial "bone" for the CAW "dog"

 

 

Just more thoughts....fuel to the fire LOL

[Ford Jellymoulds]

I doubt the CD4 Taurus will be for MY12...maybe a facelift though.

 

Why has it taken Ford soooooooooooooh looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong

?

[rmc523]

Why has it taken Ford soooooooooooooh looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

o

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong

?

 

So long for what?

[Ford Jellymoulds]

CV joints are not issue strength wise or for durability as long as the boots are durable And increasing the load capacity of CV joints is not a major issue or that complicated.

 

The Taurus as sits would not take a double A arm but would have required a redesign of the chassis.

The CD3's Upper looks insubstantial but it is a forged piece and does the job of locating the spindle just fine.

 

Beefing up A Arms is a pretty minor thing to do it is not to hard to increase the diameter of the arms add bigger ball joints or fish plate the mounting locations for increased impact loading by better load distribution in to the chassis

 

 

The Revo Knuckle would be a good comprise it changes the way the loading forces are imparted on the upper strut mount and the strut it's self. The current parts may very be adequate if the spindle was changed to a revo. That right right now is practically the only way to beef up the Taurus's front suspension with out a major chassis change. It will not be as durable a double wish bone suspension but better than the current set up.

 

Road conditions here are pretty severe. For a number of reasons we do experience winter from late October till late March. Many side streets are not plowed at all for the whole winter leading to some pretty rough rods my the time late DEC rolls around. We get serious frost heaving in the spring and during the winter all roads her are tar patched about every 30 to 40ft so this leads to constant jarring of suspensions and is especially prevalent in the in the winter.

 

Most of the province is sat on a silt based clay that soaks up water and expands drastically when froze. It is not uncommon to get any where from 1 to 4" of heave at tar joints during the winter HWY 43 south of Grand Prairie is notorious for this in the winter with frost heaving up to 6" high at tar joints and can really beat the crap out of vehicles and passengers. Think of it like 6" high speed bumps every 40ft on a hyway that has a 70MPH speed limit Believe me it can be an interesting drive. The truckers by pass this section of HYW in the winter and take secondary back roads to access GP.

 

The running gag here is we have 2 seasons winter and road construction, major thorough fares are resurfaced on average every 3 to 4 years So each summer large portions of the city are perpetually in the midst of road construction.

 

So if suspension weaknesses are going to turn up in a vehicle they will do it here.

This part of the reason the local PD's pretty much use CV or P/U's or now more frequently the Tahoe for policing duties and why basically all the FWD and LX based cruisers have failed miserably as they literally get pounded to pieces.

Throw in to the mix 5 plus months of icy or ice covered roads and the FWD's lose even more points.

 

 

For now I think the interim fix for the D3's being used SS service will be to fit them with the modified MAC strut Revo knuckle suspension. It by no means is the perfect solution but it it should suffice enough to cover 70% of the policing applications that the Taurus will be called upon to full fill.

 

This why the CV has been so successful in the role of a cruiser as it is little more than a light duty truck chassis with a car body dropped on it.

 

The weight of the CV tips the scales at about 4050Lbs fitted as a cruiser in a vehicle that uses 20 year old weight reduction technologies. The New Taurus sits at about 3800LBS for a smaller car dimensionally with the latest in weight reduction tech including an all aluminum V6 compared to the CV's iron blocked V8 that alone pretty much makes up for the weight difference

Once you pass certain vehicle size there are weight penalties using unit construction.

 

Ford really only has a couple options beef the Taurus's front suspension (revo is the cheapest solution) to allow to fulfill the PI duties it can. Or just abandon the segment until a suitable replacement is built. Throwing the Taurus as is in to SS applications is only going to get Ford egg on it's face.

 

 

 

Matthew

 

Thank you Matthew

 

Best post on this thread so far.

 

Mondeo is the biggest car we have in the UK, it's suspension is not durable at all. I know a few folk who have owned them and actually get their hands dirty with DIY on them. All have had to replace nearly all of the suspension components after 80,000 miles front & back. The job of changing them at the front requires dropping the Sub-Frame out which is a pig of a job & a nightmare, the rear suspension is just bad.

 

This job costs small fortune to have done at a Ford dealers & DIY is nightmare something the Police departments would not tolerate at all. My wifes small little FWD light Pug diesel is coming up to 200,000 miles, l have not had touch anything yet on the suspension touchwood, small lightweight FWD cars are quite durable.

 

I to like you don't want to see the new Taurus & Fords name being dragged through the mud when the its suspension is not up to the job like you say. I also don't want a see it all end in tears for Ford like you.

 

Crown Vic has built up a solid reliable reputation for Ford whist being left to rot on the vine for to loooooooooooooong. Only car in Fords line-up that is capable of replacing it and being durable enough is the Aussie Falcon it stands up to the punishment of Bathurst 1,000 which is one hell of test can't say a big FWD car would last to long in it..

 

I am sure if you ask JPD about changing any suspension components on a Falcon you will find its a straight forward simple task. I bet you would not have to support the engine, tilt the gearbox upwards, drop the subframe & remove engine mounts to change suspension components like you have to on a Mondeo every 80,000 miles which should be a simple task.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ford Jellymoulds

[lfeg]

Several things to remember.

 

Police do not buy the cars, city councils, boards of commissioners, etc. do the buying. Police get input, but they do not control the budget.

 

Any future police ot other specialty vehicle will have to share a platform and a substantial quantity of parts with a volume production vehicle or line. Designing a purpose built unit is relatively easy. Working out the economics is the hard part. The only way to keep the transaction price in the budget of the governments that do the buying is to piggy back on a volume model. One reason the CV is as popular as it is is the transaction price. If the CV was priced at $30k instead of the low $20s, it would be a lot less popular. The only way Ford can come out with a CV replacement priced in the mid $20s is to put it on a platform with decent volumes, and produce it in a plant with a high utilization rate. Lets see, what does that eliminate? Current Falcon, "revitalized" CV, Expedition. What is in the realm of probability? Current Taurus, variant of some D3 platform vehicle, what else?

 

Remember - in most state and local governments budgets are tight, with much pressure to cut where possible. This is the market for police vehicles. The market is used to a price in the low to mid $20s. As the price goes up, quantity purchased will go down. I have seen it before. In the mid 80s I saw departments looking at just about anything with 4 wheels, as budgets were very tight. Dodge K car cruisers were one response, as were short bed Rangers. The CV has proven that high power is NOT necessary, so a current Taurus with a base 3.5 V6 is in teh ballpark powerwise.

 

The mistique of "police interceptors" is not a myth, but is not the normal reality. Just as it was back in the days of the Ford 390, 406, and 427 interceptors, the other popular "police specials" were the 223 and 240 sixes; todays realities will be covered by rather mundane vehicles.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Ford's new Fiesta police car.

[FordBuyer]

Does it make sense for Ford to lengthen the chassis of the present Taurus, beef up the suspension, and tweak the motor for police duty? CAP is underutilized as is and building another 50,000 vehicles on the line makes sense to me. Ford lengthens the chassis of the CV now for cab duty, and probably could do same for Taurus. Make it look visually different than regular Taurus so that it doesn't get the onerous "Police" badge. Utilize CAP and get some of the police market. Looks to me like Ford is going to do something and might as well be reworked Taurus for police duty. If they can visually differentiate it from regular Taurus at minimal cost, it may work.