Camaro Outpaces Mustang In Pony War

[sullynd]

And the MkX MCE was different from the Fusion MCE how?

[FordBuyer]

And the MkX MCE was different from the Fusion MCE how?

 

Yep, Ford did exactly the same MCE with the MKX as they did with the Fusion. Same greenhouse was carried over, but improved the drivetrains, revised the front and back nose clips, and revised the interiors. Essentially the same vehicles, but improved in very comprehensive way, and both praised by auto reviewers and customers. Ford has really done some nice MCE's last few years and best you can hope for until vehicle is completely redesigned or goes to new platform. All manufacturers do the same thing for competitive and profit reasons.

[akirby]

Maybe I'm overstating my case and ragging on the Fusion, but the real issue I have with Ford is their obvious cust cutting measures to do the minimum it takes to maintain their product portfolio. Many of their designs reveal the compromise they took to invest their money elsewhere (or just to save it). The Fusion is an example of what I really dislike about their strategy. They did a good job with the chassis improvements, engines, transmissions, cabin technology, etc...but they didn't polish it up enough and give us modern 'quality' design from head to toe (again, I see this as compromised). Instead we get a facelift that doesn't quite fit the rest of the car which continues to look outpaced by the all-new competition. I want to see a Ford driven to produce high quality and finalized products each and everytime. They just never quiet get there, it's always so incremental and they don't act like a company interested in delivering a high quality, high-priced comeptitive product (quality not equaling dependability in this case mind you). Maybe I'm not really a Ford type of customer, maybe these details are too important to me and I'm just too arrogant and picky about details that don't matter.

 

 

Right, because every other auto mfr does a complete redesign of a vehicle that's only 3.5 years old. Come on - Ford did more with the Fusion MCE than most companies do with full redesigns. The greenhouse was about the only thing they didn't change.

 

Also try to remember that during this time Ford was investing heavily in a new Fiesta, new Focus, new Taurus, new Mustang and F150 engines, MyTouch, Hybrid technology, electric vehicles, etc. etc.

 

I think you're expectations are WAY too high given the circumstances.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Well, that and a typical BL car couldn't make it through a roundabout without breaking down twice.

 

.

 

LOL you give them to much credit Richard, they were not that good.

 

FWD Austin 1100's came with new fangled hydroelastic suspension that made you feel sea sick after just a one miles driving.

[RichardJensen]

Many of their designs reveal the compromise they took to invest their money elsewhere (or just to save it).

Because it is more important to invest in something that matters to borg than a real customer. And it is more important to spend money that won't be recouped, then to save it.

[OHV 16V]

While I don't agree with BORG's opinion about ALL Ford vehicle styling being affected, I will say that the 2010-Present Mustang is a good example of the cost-cutting in design he's talking about. I can't even begin to tell you how many people I hear comment about the cheap black plastic that was used in the grille surround and on the lower sections of the car, especially out back. Where as on the 05-09s, it was body-colored.

 

And , while not an example of cost-cutting, that pales in comparison to the number of people I've heard mention the rear's styling in general. The only positive thing I've heard said about current car's rear styling is that everybody seems to love the sequential tail lamps. (Functionality, not looks)

 

And this is coming from current owners that I've talked to. I assure you no small number either, as these discussions have all taken place with a lot of people from three different local Mustang Clubs.

[NickF1011]

While I don't agree with BORG's opinion about ALL Ford vehicle styling being affected, I will say that the 2010-Present Mustang is a good example of the cost-cutting in design he's talking about. I can't even begin to tell you how many people I hear comment about the cheap black plastic that was used in the grille surround and on the lower sections of the car, especially out back. Where as on the 05-09s, it was body-colored.

 

 

They were intentionally going for a different look with the matte black diffuser on the back of the 2010 compared to to 2005-2009. The last gen GT-500's had matte black diffusers as well -- was Ford skimping on those? The side skirts are matte finish all of them since 2005. The grille? Certainly doesn't appear to be any difference in the quality of the plastic used from model to model. I would argue that the 2005-2009 grille looks better, but that doesn't mean it's any better in terms of quality or materials.

 

And let's just forget about the fact that ALL 2011 Mustangs, V8 or not, come with polished dual exhaust. Was that a cost-saving measure as well?

Edited November 22, 2010 by NickF1011

[TomServo92]

And let's just forget about the fact that ALL 2011 Mustangs, V8 or not, come with polished dual exhaust. Was that a cost-saving measure as well?

 

Actually, 2010 V6s had a single, polished exhaust tip. The V6 got the duals in 2011.

[NickF1011]

Actually, 2010 V6s had a single, polished exhaust tip. The V6 got the duals in 2011.

 

I corrected it before you could quote me. :P

[TomServo92]

I corrected it before you could quote me. :P

 

Even your corrected post says "V8 or not, come with polished dual exhaust." so I'm still right! :happy feet:

[OHV 16V]

 

They were intentionally going for a different look with the matte black diffuser on the back of the 2010 compared to to 2005-2009. The last gen GT-500's had matte black diffusers as well -- was Ford skimping on those? The side skirts are matte finish all of them since 2005. The grille? Certainly doesn't appear to be any difference in the quality of the plastic used from model to model. I would argue that the 2005-2009 grille looks better, but that doesn't mean it's any better in terms of quality or materials.

 

And let's just forget about the fact that ALL 2011 Mustangs, V8 or not, come with polished dual exhaust. Was that a cost-saving measure as well?

 

1. Whether they were purposely going for the look or not, it's come off as cheap-looking, going by what I'm gathering from folks. (Obviously not 100%, but easily landslide)

 

2. Side skirts? My 08 GT was body-color everywhere on the side except the sill plate inside the door. (Had the lighted ones put in) That flat black plastic between the wheels on the new one? Wasn't like that on the 05-09 GTs at all. Body-colored.

 

3. The 05-09 grille looks better to some folks, yes. Thereby the 2010-Current looks cheaper to them because instead of body-colored to match the vehicle, every one of them is the same cheap-looking plastic. i.e.= Cheaper for Ford to produce. I wasn't insinuating that the physical quality of said plastic was cheaper, and neither is BORG if I'm understanding him correctly.

 

Again, not just me throwing out opinions, (I will fully admit to sharing a couple), but this is coming from talking to many folks from various cruises, club gatherings, etc.

[NickF1011]

Even your corrected post says "V8 or not, come with polished dual exhaust." so I'm still right! :happy feet:

 

I didn't say you were wrong, just that my edited post was correct. :P

 

1. Whether they were purposely going for the look or not, it's come off as cheap-looking, going by what I'm gathering from folks. (Obviously not 100%, but easily landslide)

 

Entirely your opinion. I think it looks much more sophisticated than the 2005-2009 rear.

 

2. Side skirts? My 08 GT was body-color everywhere on the side except the sill plate inside the door. (Had the lighted ones put in) That flat black plastic between the wheels on the new one? Wasn't like that on the 05-09 GTs at all. Body-colored.

 

Hmm. They are black on all GT-500's and several V6's and GT's I see photos of doing a Google image search. I guess Ford was just being cheap on most of them.

 

3. The 05-09 grille looks better to some folks, yes. Thereby the 2010-Current looks cheaper to them because instead of body-colored to match the vehicle, every one of them is the same cheap-looking plastic. i.e.= Cheaper for Ford to produce. I wasn't insinuating that the physical quality of said plastic was cheaper, and neither is BORG if I'm understanding him correctly.

 

Which 2005-2009 Mustangs had body-colored grilles? The only model I can think of at all that did this were some Roushes. If you are referring to the side supports next to the headlights, then yeah, I see where you are coming from. Still doesn't look any cheaper though...just different.

 

Again, not just me throwing out opinions, (I will fully admit to sharing a couple), but this is coming from talking to many folks from various cruises, club gatherings, etc.

 

Of course you are throwing out opinions...just other people's opinions. The fact that I disagree with you says it is entirely opinion.

[TomServo92]

I didn't say you were wrong, just that my edited post was correct. :P

 

Have you ever considered a career in politics? :lol:

Edited November 22, 2010 by TomServo92

[akirby]

I think the rear clipped corners are a huge improvement and make the car leaner and sleeker. I much prefer the 2011 to any of the previous ones and I'm in the market for a V6 convertible next Spring.

[OHV 16V]

... If you are referring to the side supports next to the headlights, then yeah, I see where you are coming from...

 

 

Your description is better than mine, that's what I was trying to describe.

Edited November 22, 2010 by OHV 16V

[Deanh]

Maybe I'm overstating my case and ragging on the Fusion, but the real issue I have with Ford is their obvious cust cutting measures to do the minimum it takes to maintain their product portfolio. Many of their designs reveal the compromise they took to invest their money elsewhere (or just to save it). The Fusion is an example of what I really dislike about their strategy. They did a good job with the chassis improvements, engines, transmissions, cabin technology, etc...but they didn't polish it up enough and give us modern 'quality' design from head to toe (again, I see this as compromised). Instead we get a facelift that doesn't quite fit the rest of the car which continues to look outpaced by the all-new competition. I want to see a Ford driven to produce high quality and finalized products each and everytime. They just never quiet get there, it's always so incremental and they don't act like a company interested in delivering a high quality, high-priced comeptitive product (quality not equaling dependability in this case mind you). Maybe I'm not really a Ford type of customer, maybe these details are too important to me and I'm just too arrogant and picky about details that don't matter.

you do realize ( for better or worse ) that the current Fusion is nothing more than a stop-gap until the new Global chassis becomes avail with the new Mondeo no?....and in that light I believe Ford did a STERLING job, whilst I am not a fan of the Grill-zilla look, it would nhave been WAY easier to just let the car wilt on the vine to save money, instead they were more PRO active than was probably necessary...I say Cudos!

[TomServo92]

Your description is better than mine, that's what I was trying to describe.

 

Since they're painted on the V6, I suspect it was more about creating a certain look for the GT rather than cheaping out.

[NickF1011]

Since they're painted on the V6, I suspect it was more about creating a certain look for the GT rather than cheaping out.

 

Hmm. Good point! :yup:

[jpd80]

Maybe I'm not really a Ford type of customer, maybe these details are too important to me and I'm just too arrogant and picky about details that don't matter.

Incremental improvement is so important to that target audience.

As interested parties, our opinions and biases will always shine through, what is harder to do is step

outside our own personal opinions of vehicles and see what the buyers see. Where you and I may see

the Fusion as a deficient midsized car, those people who actually cross shop and buy the Fusion see it

as a car that keeps improving.

 

Also consider what Fusion's competitors are doing and how Ford is narrowing the gap whilst meeting the

dual needs of profitability and increased features.....

Edited November 22, 2010 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

1. Whether they were purposely going for the look or not, it's come off as cheap-looking, going by what I'm gathering from folks. (Obviously not 100%, but easily landslide)

 

2. Side skirts? My 08 GT was body-color everywhere on the side except the sill plate inside the door. (Had the lighted ones put in) That flat black plastic between the wheels on the new one? Wasn't like that on the 05-09 GTs at all. Body-colored.

 

3. The 05-09 grille looks better to some folks, yes. Thereby the 2010-Current looks cheaper to them because instead of body-colored to match the vehicle, every one of them is the same cheap-looking plastic. i.e.= Cheaper for Ford to produce. I wasn't insinuating that the physical quality of said plastic was cheaper, and neither is BORG if I'm understanding him correctly.

 

 

I think the point that everyone you know is missing is that the reason Ford used a dark color plastic on the10+ Mustang is to cut down the visual bulkiness of the 2005-09 Mustangs while not actually making the car "smaller". While I like the 2005 body style, and I didn't care for the 10+ at first, but its really grown on me and looks really good in Grabber Blue.

 

Personally I don't think the 10 would look good with body colored lowers and wouldn't have a big enough visual change from the previous generation

 

 

[rmc523]

Actually, 2010 V6s had a single, polished exhaust tip. The V6 got the duals in 2011.

 

Actually, I believe V6 Mustangs only have dual exhaust for 2011 on sport package equipped models.

 

NOTE: I'm going to double check here real quick on Ford's website.

 

 

EDIT: nevermind, I'm incorrect - I thought I read somewhere that you had to get a sport package or something to get the dual exhaust on the V6 Mustang.

Edited November 23, 2010 by rmc523

[blazerdude20]

anyone who thinks ford went cheap on the new mustang needs to look at the sunvisors... the mirror cover door is a smaller scale replica of the hood. thats got to cost a little more then flat piece of plastic.

 

the only thing that bugs me is that the door panels aren't soft touch on the mustang or edge. though the new explorer has soft touch doors.

[OHV 16V]

I think the point that everyone you know is missing is that the reason Ford used a dark color plastic on the10+ Mustang is to cut down the visual bulkiness of the 2005-09 Mustangs while not actually making the car "smaller". While I like the 2005 body style, and I didn't care for the 10+ at first, but its really grown on me and looks really good in Grabber Blue.

 

Personally I don't think the 10 would look good with body colored lowers and wouldn't have a big enough visual change from the previous generation

 

This is what I always understood to be the reasoning behind the use of said plastic. But whatever Ford's intent, that's not the message that came across to these folks. And again, to be clear: it wasn't 100% everyone I talked to, but definitely the large majority.

 

And as far as the '10-up goes, I think I would vote for the bars in the grille (See Nick's description above please...) and the rear to be body-color before I'd worry about the sides.

 

Can someone do a chop? We've got enough people on here that are good enough with this stuff!

[Cocheese]

Mustang is still the koolest new car on the planet money can buy,

 

Really!?!??! You think if you could go out and buy any car you wanted, you'd buy a Mustang?

 

Listen, I'll be the first to admit I'm not the biggest Mustang supporter (I would take a '67 or a '89 in a heartbeat), but if you can't be serious that it is the coolest car on the planet. Have you failed to notice the DBS, Veyron, SLR MacLaren, Reventon, etc? Hell, a current gen Charger R/T or SRT-8 will get you far more looks than a Mustang will.

 

The Craparo never made our UK top 100 most popular cars ever of all time list.

 

The Camaro was/is an American Muscle car, it doesn't surprise me the UK didn't like it.

 

How are F-150 sales in the UK? Does that mean it's a shitty truck because the British don't like it?

[BORG]

Because it is more important to invest in something that matters to borg than a real customer. And it is more important to spend money that won't be recouped, then to save it.

 

For consumers like me, or anybody young(ish) and willing to spend big bucks on a car, design is EXTREMELY important. Every detail is scrutinized and compared to the competition. Now the Fusion may appeal to the appliance sector and therefore Ford doesn't need to apply a universal theme to the execution of every product. I want to see Ford producing ambitious and high quality designs uniformly across the board, not selectively budgeting the execution of each product for every penny. I keep saying that Ford design is inconsistent and unpredictable. Look at the Taurus vs the Fusion, I think it's great they look destinctive, but the Fusion (IMO) trails the Taurus in modern design quality. Fusion is less than one year newer than the Taurus and it got a full body re-work a year ago, not to mention the speed at wich Sonata and Malibu have gone through their generational overhauls. Unless Ford can pay exacting attention to these details and deliver the best everytime, they won't be a trully world class consumer company. If they want to attract more than minimum money, they have to do more than minimum.

 

What I'm trying to say is that I am concerned by companies like Hyundai who are moving more aggresively than Ford and are quickly outflanking them. When I see Ford with the eldest chasis and bodies sitting in the segment, I can't help but be concerned that there is no way for them to catch up.

 

As for the Mustang, I think it's an improvement, but it's not good enough. Lots of 'not good enough' going around at Ford IMO.

 

And I know my MKX is an MCE and I have said that I don't think it's a great design, but I'm very pleased with the interior and features and it's still an attractive and standout product.

 

In the end, I'm still not leaving Ford, in terms of engineering and features, nobody has them beat right now and I have no reason to leave (especially with the Edge and MKX leading the way for me). But I want my cake and eat it to, so c'mon Ford, deliver some exemplary design with everything else, no more cheating!

Edited November 23, 2010 by BORG