kyle Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 27 minutes ago, rmc523 said: 160% of profits, now THAT'S impressive. Or scary as hell!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, bzcat said: It's almost as if Ford originally designed it to slot in below Escape... ? Bronco Sport is dimensional similar to other short C utilities e.g. Jeep Compass, Nissan Qashqai, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Chevy Trailblazer, VW Tharu, Skoda Karoq, Toyota CH-R etc. Originally that was the plan... to replace C-Max and compete head on with those guys but Farley didn't like the idea so this thing got the Bronco branding and premium price to match. It is priced higher and positioned as a premium vehicle due to it having standard AWD and lacking the poverty spec base model (the Escape S equivalent trim level). In theory, Ford could chase volume with a base FWD poverty spec model that matches the starting price of other short C utilities but Ford doesn't seem too eager to ramp up volume, and Hermosilo still need to factor in volume for Maverick, Transit Connect and Fusion Active. But I wouldn't rule out a FWD version for export markets - e.g. for South America where Ford is desperate for something in this size but cheaper (the original plan was to import the Territory from China but that plan was scrapped). Bronco Sport is exactly what it looks like to a lot of people, a two inch wider reincarnation of Gen 1 Escape. It wouldn't surprise home in the slightest to learn that this vehicle was renamed and rebranded away from another bad idea begun under Fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrigo Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, bzcat said: It's almost as if Ford originally designed it to slot in below Escape... ? Bronco Sport is dimensional similar to other short C utilities e.g. Jeep Compass, Nissan Qashqai, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Chevy Trailblazer, VW Tharu, Skoda Karoq, Toyota CH-R etc. Originally that was the plan... to replace C-Max and compete head on with those guys but Farley didn't like the idea so this thing got the Bronco branding and premium price to match. It is priced higher and positioned as a premium vehicle due to it having standard AWD and lacking the poverty spec base model (the Escape S equivalent trim level). In theory, Ford could chase volume with a base FWD poverty spec model that matches the starting price of other short C utilities but Ford doesn't seem too eager to ramp up volume, and Hermosilo still need to factor in volume for Maverick, Transit Connect and Fusion Active. But I wouldn't rule out a FWD version for export markets - e.g. for South America where Ford is desperate for something in this size but cheaper (the original plan was to import the Territory from China but that plan was scrapped). It´s not suspended, it´s delayed by the covid,It´s planned for August. https://www.ford.com.ar/futuros-autos/territory/ https://autoblog.com.ar/2020/07/22/lanzamiento-de-ford-argentina-en-agosto-se-viene-la-territory/ Edited July 22, 2020 by Rodrigo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Rodrigo said: It´s not suspended, it´s delayed by the covid,It´s planned for August. https://www.ford.com.ar/futuros-autos/territory/ https://autoblog.com.ar/2020/07/22/lanzamiento-de-ford-argentina-en-agosto-se-viene-la-territory/ gracias por la actualizaciones ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 7 hours ago, bzcat said: It's almost as if Ford originally designed it to slot in below Escape... ? Bronco Sport is dimensional similar to other short C utilities e.g. Jeep Compass, Nissan Qashqai, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Chevy Trailblazer, VW Tharu, Skoda Karoq, Toyota CH-R etc. Originally that was the plan... to replace C-Max and compete head on with those guys but Farley didn't like the idea so this thing got the Bronco branding and premium price to match. It is priced higher and positioned as a premium vehicle due to it having standard AWD and lacking the poverty spec base model (the Escape S equivalent trim level). In theory, Ford could chase volume with a base FWD poverty spec model that matches the starting price of other short C utilities but Ford doesn't seem too eager to ramp up volume, and Hermosilo still need to factor in volume for Maverick, Transit Connect and Fusion Active. But I wouldn't rule out a FWD version for export markets - e.g. for South America where Ford is desperate for something in this size but cheaper (the original plan was to import the Territory from China but that plan was scrapped). I thought that Fusion Active was going to come from Oakville, pending the outcome of Unifor negotiations of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 13 hours ago, rperez817 said: This article by Jerry Hirsch highlights how lopsided the profitability of Ford's various products and services are. https://www.trucks.com/2020/06/03/gm-ford-should-shed-models/ And this helps retain customers who used to buy Ford "cars" how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, MKII said: And this helps retain customers who used to buy Ford "cars" how? Those customers don't need to be retained unless they move up the "value curve" as Ford sees it. Edited July 23, 2020 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 9 hours ago, AGR said: I thought that Fusion Active was going to come from Oakville, pending the outcome of Unifor negotiations of course. That is the million dollar question Given the price range it’s expected to be in, well it would make more sense to build it in Mexico then Canada. The other interesting thing is that the Mach E plant in Mexico is only making Mach Es and that is only about 50–100k units. I wonder if the upcoming BEV mid sizers are gonna be built there also. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 7 hours ago, MKII said: And this helps retain customers who used to buy Ford "cars" how? You don’t have to keep car buyers. You replace them with more truck, utility and BEV buyers. C2 and cd6 are perfectly capable of supporting cars and any C2 or CD6 factory can build them if the market shifts. It’s not like they killed the unibody platforms and have nothing but BOF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 I had never owned a SUV/CUV or truck (unless you count an E150 Club Wagon as a truck) until I bought a 2016 Edge. Still not a big fan of the body style, but I love the interior and the functionality of the hatch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passis Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, bzcat said: ?The original plan was to import the Territory from China but that plan was scrapped Apparently they are lauching the Territory here next month after a long wait. Tv commercials were being shot in Uruguay a few weeks ago. But this vehicle is running the risk of being bombarded with critics if the company cannot make a point that it has any sort of Ford DNA. People claim it is not a Ford. Powertrain seems to consist of an old and underperforming Mitsubishi engine and does not look good on paper. I wonder if this model will take company image to an all time low here. Fords marketshare shrunk to half of what it used to be. And I guess this is happening in all "international markets" group... Edit: Just saw Rodrigo's reply so there is a bit of overlap in my comments. Thanks for links, Rodrigo. Edited July 23, 2020 by passis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 The decision to use cheap Mitsubishi 4G engine that is used in a lot of Chinese cars was made when Territory was still Yusheng S330 and only intended for the Chinese market. That made sense because that engine is like small block Chevy in China... every mechanic in rural Chinese town knows how to work on it. Now that Territory is being sold outside China, it seems like a bad decision. I hope Ford already has the new Territory on fast track development (perhaps that is what CX758 companion to the Maverick pickup will become). I think the success of Territory in South America will depend on pricing. I don't think your average SUV buyer cares the engine is Mitsubishi as long as Ford can beat Trailblazer, Compass, and Nivus in price, it will sell. But really, Ford needs the next gen to be localized and assembled in Brazil and/or Mexico. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 30 minutes ago, bzcat said: Now that Territory is being sold outside China, it seems like a bad decision. I hope Ford already has the new Territory on fast track development (perhaps that is what CX758 companion to the Maverick pickup will become). Im still wondering how Ford is going to be able to thread the needle with its lower cost products. I still don’t see anything that could be a Ecosport replacement and the Maverick is still going to be around 25-30k decently loaded. Any CUV based of it is going to have to slot under the Escape price wise, but if it’s on the LWB C platform like the Maverick, it’s most likely going to be a three row product. Unless they are also doing a SWB model that might be able to replace the Ecosport. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrigo Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 1 hour ago, passis said: Apparently they are lauching the Territory here next month after a long wait. Tv commercials were being shot in Uruguay a few weeks ago. But this vehicle is running the risk of being bombarded with critics if the company cannot make a point that it has any sort of Ford DNA. People claim it is not a Ford. Powertrain seems to consist of an old and underperforming Mitsubishi engine and does not look good on paper. I wonder if this model will take company image to an all time low here. Fords marketshare shrunk to half of what it used to be. And I guess this is happening in all "international markets" group... Edit: Just saw Rodrigo's reply so there is a bit of overlap in my comments. Thanks for links, Rodrigo. in the forums and some specialized media, they told this is not a ford and there are many doubts about its quality. Success will be in the price. too bad, but there seems to be no serious plan plan for south america. all perfect for toyota to keep winning month by month. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehaase Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 59 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Im still wondering how Ford is going to be able to thread the needle with its lower cost products. I still don’t see anything that could be a Ecosport replacement and the Maverick is still going to be around 25-30k decently loaded. Any CUV based of it is going to have to slot under the Escape price wise, but if it’s on the LWB C platform like the Maverick, it’s most likely going to be a three row product. Unless they are also doing a SWB model that might be able to replace the Ecosport. For what it's worth, Borg said on GMI that plans for the Maverick based crossover have been dropped. He also said that 2.5 Hybrid will be the base engine in the Maverick, while the 2.0L EB will be optional. The 1.5L EB will not be used on the Maverick. That's what Borg said - I don't know how reliable he is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, ehaase said: For what it's worth, Borg said on GMI that plans for the Maverick based crossover have been dropped. He also said that 2.5 Hybrid will be the base engine in the Maverick, while the 2.0L EB will be optional. The 1.5L EB will not be used on the Maverick. That's what Borg said - I don't know how reliable he is. He's very hit or miss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) As we've seen, Ford is prone to either scrapping vehicles or changing plans depending on opportunities / head winds. I can imagine more changes will happen due to global post-covid economic situation, vehicles like Chinese Territory and Mahindra alliances with NG Ecosport should find traction. Products for Hermosillo has or is changing with Transit Connect now to be sourced from VW, TC based Maverick utility is now cancelled and I wonder if Maverick pickup was saved because it was more appropriate than VW Caddy based compact pickup. Had the alliance timing beene earlier, I suspect that the pickup may have been outsourced too..... And only Mach E from Cuautitlan is perplexing but maybe a future plan could involve a BEV Mustang coupe that Ford is not ready to discuss until battery range improves. Edited July 23, 2020 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 20 minutes ago, jpd80 said: As we've seen, Ford is prone to either scrapping vehicles or changing plans depending on opportunities / head winds. I can imagine more changes will happen due to global post-covid economic situation, vehicles like Chinese Territory and Mahindra alliances with NG Ecosport should find traction. Products for Hermosillo has or is changing with Transit Connect now to be sourced from VW, TC based Maverick now cancelled and I wonder if Maverick pickup was saved because it was more appropriate than VW Caddy based compact pickup. Had the alliance timing been a little earlier, I suspect that the pickup may have been outsourced too..... Eh, I have a feeling Ford wants to keep pickups close to the vest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Eh, I have a feeling Ford wants to keep pickups close to the vest. That would be a reason to keep it but I think the big one in a that development money is already spent and it probably has an even better chance of doing well compared tongue cancelled utility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 41 minutes ago, jpd80 said: That would be a reason to keep it but I think the big one in a that development money is already spent and it probably has an even better chance of doing well compared tongue cancelled utility. A friend and I were talking about it a few days ago and my thoughts on Maverick were this: Ford kept the Ranger on the sidelines for a few reasons - production, afraid it'd be too close to F-150, etc. Then Colorado/Canyon did well, which spurred Ford to bring Ranger back. They got burned (at least initially) with leaving Ranger out, and they don't want that to happen again. So they're now viewing that lower/smaller segment as something untapped and want to be the first to lead the charge into the segment and grab a foothold there before the competition. I do think that they need a small utility to replace EcoSport, though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passis Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 4 hours ago, bzcat said: I don't think your average SUV buyer cares the engine is Mitsubishi as long as Ford can beat Trailblazer, Compass, and Nivus in price, it will sell. Consumers here don't like owning a vehicle which shares no components with the rest of the lineup as it makes it harder to find replacment parts. Being an imported model which will hardly beat Jeep's local production capacity (and therefore tends to sell much less), I am sure the competition will make a lot of noise about running costs and insurence prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 3 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Im still wondering how Ford is going to be able to thread the needle with its lower cost products. I still don’t see anything that could be a Ecosport replacement and the Maverick is still going to be around 25-30k decently loaded. Any CUV based of it is going to have to slot under the Escape price wise, but if it’s on the LWB C platform like the Maverick, it’s most likely going to be a three row product. Unless they are also doing a SWB model that might be able to replace the Ecosport. It's not rocket science but Ford just can't execute properly. Ford's strategy is not inherently different than VW, Toyota, GM or Hyundai. But they are just too slow. Ford's emerging market models are: Ka/Ikon, EcoSport, Escort, and you can add Territory to the list. The other 4 have double or triple the models and they are being updates more often. EcoSport is at least 3 years overdue for replacement and Escort has marched on 7 years in China without and update. That is a totally crazy stat... the average age of the low end of Chinese cars have about 24 months shelve life. TWO YEARS! That's the how often GM updates its entry level Baojun sedans and CUVs. And the alliances with Manhindra and Zoyte have both yielded nothing. They were supposed to supply Ford with a staple of cheap cars but now looking back, they appears more like theatrical stunts to impress Wall St analysts and had no substance. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 42 minutes ago, bzcat said: It's not rocket science but Ford just can't execute properly. Ford's strategy is not inherently different than VW, Toyota, GM or Hyundai. But they are just too slow. Ford's emerging market models are: Ka/Ikon, EcoSport, Escort, and you can add Territory to the list. The other 4 have double or triple the models and they are being updates more often. EcoSport is at least 3 years overdue for replacement and Escort has marched on 7 years in China without and update. That is a totally crazy stat... the average age of the low end of Chinese cars have about 24 months shelve life. TWO YEARS! That's the how often GM updates its entry level Baojun sedans and CUVs. And the alliances with Manhindra and Zoyte have both yielded nothing. They were supposed to supply Ford with a staple of cheap cars but now looking back, they appears more like theatrical stunts to impress Wall St analysts and had no substance. Didn't they just sign those deals recently? They're supposed to come out with a product day 1 of the agreement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, rmc523 said: Didn't they just sign those deals recently? They're supposed to come out with a product day 1 of the agreement? The original agreement with Mahindra was in 2017. That agreement called for Mahindra to supply Ford with a range of small cars and CUVs for sale in India and export to other low income countries. One would assume Ford entered into the agreement 3 years ago after seeing what Mahindra had in the pipeline... And those cars should be out on the street by now - and indeed, Mahindra had been introducing new CUVs over the last couple of years, just nothing for Ford. If Ford didn't really understand what they were getting, that's pretty egregious lapse in corporate governance. In October 2019 Ford basically pulled the plug in India and sold 51% of Ford India to Mahindra. The resulting JV which Ford now only own 49% is responsible for marketing and sales of Ford branded vehicle in India but one imagines Mahindra would rather build up its own brand then sell its latest cars under the Ford brand. Zoyte-Ford JV was also signed in 2017 around the same time as the original Mahindra supply deal. The plan was to begin production by 2020 with Zoyte based designs with initial volume of 100k units annually. It has not resulted in anything of substance: no factories have been built, no prototypes in development, no spy photos of mules. Zoyte is one of the hardest hit Chinese car company by Covid and it is in near collapse. Ford hasn't said anything about the JV for nearly 2 years so we can only guess. Edited July 24, 2020 by bzcat 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passis Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 (edited) On 7/23/2020 at 3:08 PM, bzcat said: The decision to use cheap Mitsubishi 4G engine that is used in a lot of Chinese cars was made when Territory was still Yusheng S330 and only intended for the Chinese market. That made sense because that engine is like small block Chevy in China... every mechanic in rural Chinese town knows how to work on it. Now that Territory is being sold outside China, it seems like a bad decision. I hope Ford already has the new Territory on fast track development (perhaps that is what CX758 companion to the Maverick pickup will become). I think the success of Territory in South America will depend on pricing. I don't think your average SUV buyer cares the engine is Mitsubishi as long as Ford can beat Trailblazer, Compass, and Nivus in price, it will sell. But really, Ford needs the next gen to be localized and assembled in Brazil and/or Mexico. Tomorrow is the lauch day of the Territory in Brazil. Journalists have already been in contact with the car and the relevant information but they are still under embargo. However, some leaks indicate prices ranging from US$31k to US$35k (whereas in China those trims seem be 18k and 22k). These are the price tags of Tiguans and Equinoxes. I don't know how much money Ford has invested in bringing the Territory but if these prices are correct, the car stands no chance. Today, one of our most traditional car magazines brings an article entitled "New Ford Territory has a 'fake' Toyota base, JAC transmission and 1977 engine". Isn't that the PR one can only wish for? Especially considering this is the first new launch in years (and years)... Anyway, the author claims to have traced back the origins of the Territory to the 2006 RAV4 Mk3. https://translate.google.com.br/translate?hl=pt-BR&sl=pt&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fquatrorodas.abril.com.br%2Fnoticias%2Fnovo-ford-territory-tem-base-toyota-fake-cambio-de-jac-e-motor-de-1977%2F PS: Lyle Watters seems proud, though Edited August 7, 2020 by passis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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