Jump to content





Sign in to follow this  
jgonza5

EVs and Their Drawbacks

Recommended Posts

While EV performance, reduced maintenance, and (perceived) environmental benefits get glowing press and media coverage, here are a couple of stories detailing experiences with the current public charging infrastructure from a third generation dealer:

 

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2020/12/29/electric_vehicles_and_their_drawbacks_654808.html

 

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2021/02/02/electric_vehicles_and_their_drawbacks_chapter_ii_658924.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for sharing these articles jgonza5 sir. The incumbent automakers need to work with governments, charging network companies, utility companies, and dealerships to address BEV public charging issues, and maybe make their own investments in fast charging infrastructure to provide their customers with a better experience. There's definitely room for improvement.

 

Public charging is one area where Tesla is far ahead of everyone else. In the recent 2021 J.D. Power EV Experience Study, it said "Satisfaction with the availability of public charging is 305 points higher among Tesla owners than among owners of other brands." 2021005 U.S. EVX Ownership_0.pdf (jdpower.com)

 

I bought my 2018 Tesla Model S as a used car from a Pohanka dealership in Maryland, and had it shipped to my home in Fort Worth. Entire transaction except for Texas inspection was done online and using Fedex. Pohanka was pretty good to work with.

 

Edited by rperez817

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Public charging is one area where Tesla is far ahead of everyone else. 

 

 

Far ahead of not much more than zero isn’t saying much. Tesla’s charging network is still woefully inadequate. The closest Tesla charger to where I live is 45 miles, and that is the case across a lot of the U.S. Unless you can charge at home, that’s not going to work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

 

Far ahead of not much more than zero isn’t saying much. Tesla’s charging network is still woefully inadequate. The closest Tesla charger to where I live is 45 miles, and that is the case across a lot of the U.S. Unless you can charge at home, that’s not going to work.

 

Improving public BEV charging infrastructure in the U.S. must be a collaborative effort as mentioned earlier. Businesses such as automakers, charging networks, real estate investment trusts, utilities, etc. will need to work with governments at the federal, state, and local levels. In particular there should be incentives to encourage putting charging stations in areas most useful to drivers, not necessarily where it is cheapest and easiest to install them.

 

The current presidential administration's plan to deploy 500,000 new public charging stations across the US by 2030 is step in the right direction. This plan is expected to adopt best practices from other countries and from BEV experts in the business world.

Edited by rperez817

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Improving public BEV charging infrastructure in the U.S. must be a collaborative effort as mentioned earlier. Businesses such as automakers, charging networks, real estate investment trusts, utilities, etc. will need to work with governments at the federal, state, and local levels. In particular there should be incentives to encourage putting charging stations in areas most useful to drivers, not necessarily where it is cheapest and easiest to install them.

 

The current presidential administration's plan to deploy 500,000 new public charging stations across the US by 2030 is step in the right direction. This plan is expected to adopt best practices from other countries and from BEV experts in the business world.

We’ll see whether the current administration plan is a step in the right direction or a giant boondoggle to spend public money to enriched a chosen few.  Your last sentence of the first paragraph summed up my sentiments.  Only I think that private industry and profit motive will get more charging stations where they are needed and not government incentives.

 

The steps I think the Federal government should take is to allow bids to put charging stations at all interstate rest stops and work on updating any regulations that would be restrictive in providing this new service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are trying to "force" there agenda...i have no problem with flipping the "bird" to any gas station...the problem is what do you do with those workers?...toss them on the socialist payroll the fools want to do for votes (aka uncle sugar)??...the positives of MME do entice me to purchase eventually but what are the negatives as it is never discussed (one is initial cost)...electrification has merits but what becomes of the middle east when they realize they are going back to the sand lot with no bucket or scoop??.....one way to destroy china is "weaponize food" and destroy them and that may be our only option to deal with them..

 

Electrification is a "move fast and break things" proposition as established by silicon valley and there cheap as hell products...

Edited by snooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Thank you for sharing these articles jgonza5 sir. The incumbent automakers need to work with governments, charging network companies, utility companies, and dealerships to address BEV public charging issues, and maybe make their own investments in fast charging infrastructure to provide their customers with a better experience. There's definitely room for improvement.

 

Public charging is one area where Tesla is far ahead of everyone else. In the recent 2021 J.D. Power EV Experience Study, it said "Satisfaction with the availability of public charging is 305 points higher among Tesla owners than among owners of other brands." 2021005 U.S. EVX Ownership_0.pdf (jdpower.com)

 

I bought my 2018 Tesla Model S as a used car from a Pohanka dealership in Maryland, and had it shipped to my home in Fort Worth. Entire transaction except for Texas inspection was done online and using Fedex. Pohanka was pretty good to work with.

 

The moral of this story seems to be that if you want a BEV, stick with Tesla and its superior charging network, range, and over the air updates.

 

Downsides are skimpy dealer  network, no instrument panel on Model Y or 3, terrible looking front end, simple controls have to be done through a huge tablet, poor fit and finish, and don't know about resale value.

 

 Know it's next to impossible to sell a used electric golf cart here without brand new batteries. I imagine the same will happen with my Escape hybrid if I try to sell it in 6 years without putting in new battery. 

 

There was a used 2019 loaded Tesla Model S selling around here with low miles for $50,900. I think it sold rather quickly. I imagined it sold new for over $80,000.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, slemke said:

We’ll see whether the current administration plan is a step in the right direction or a giant boondoggle to spend public money to enriched a chosen few.  Your last sentence of the first paragraph summed up my sentiments.  Only I think that private industry and profit motive will get more charging stations where they are needed and not government incentives.

 

The steps I think the Federal government should take is to allow bids to put charging stations at all interstate rest stops and work on updating any regulations that would be restrictive in providing this new service.

I would hope the Gov. would work with gas station owners and provide incentives to build charging stations since it costs as much for electric charge as gas and they buy things in their mini markets. Win win for everyone. Gas stations are everywhere and convenient and infrastructure is already there. Besides, ICE will be around for decades, long after most of us are gone or can't drive anymore. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, EVs aren't ready for prime time (and that's more due to society/infrastructure than the actual EV products) but it appears that's the direction we're headed like it or not come 2025 and the Obama CAFE changes.  This is pretty much exactly what it looks like when the govt tries to "fix problems".

 

The main problems/unanswered questions with EVs in terms of mass adoption:

1) Where is all the electricity going to come from? Oil currently provides about as much energy as all of our current electricity generation does...

2) How are we going to charge them?  Retrofit every home with one or more 240v chargers?  What about non-residential charging?

3) Are people just going to be expected to accept that it takes a half hour to charge vs 3 minutes to fill an ICE car with gasoline?

4) What about the terrible heavy metal pollution involved in making EV batteries?

5) So far EVs have downright abysmal resale/residual value.  Are consumers just supposed to eat that cost?

 

I know I'll be stocking up on ICEs before we hit the 2025 cliff.....

Edited by Sevensecondsuv

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Sevensecondsuv said:

Yep, EVs aren't ready for prime time (and that's more due to society/infrastructure than the actual EV products) but it appears that's the direction we're headed like it or not come 2025 and the Obama CAFE changes.  This is pretty much exactly what it looks like when the govt tries to "fix problems".

 

The main problems/unanswered questions with EVs in terms of mass adoption:

1) Where is all the electricity going to come from? Oil currently provides about as much energy as all of our current electricity generation does...

2) How are we going to charge them?  Retrofit every home with one or more 240v chargers?  What about non-residential charging?

3) Are people just going to be expected to accept that it takes a half hour to charge vs 3 minutes to fill an ICE car with gasoline?

4) What about the terrible heavy metal pollution involved in making EV batteries?

5) So far EVs have downright abysmal resale/residual value.  Are consumers just supposed to eat that cost?

 

I know I'll be stocking up on ICEs before we hit the 2025 cliff.....

 

1) "Solar and wind" Rainbows and Unicorn Farts

2) Magic

3) Charging times will fall as tech becomes better, and theoretically, people would charge overnight and have a full tank daily, negating a need for a fill up while out - but that's a mentality/habit thing that people will need to overcome........but on a trip, yeah, you'll have to wait that long right now

4) Just ignore the man behind the EV Rainbows and Unicorns curtain

5) yup

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crazy part is that Ford and GM basically wasted the last ten years or so by not heavily promoting 

hybrids, be that economy or as Power adders. There was an opportunity to deliver hybrid tech to 

truck and utility users much earlier than now  and basically have a whole generation of buyers ready 

and accepting of electrification. All that work convincing ICE buyers to give up their gas engines is 

still there needing to be done by Ford and GM yet they're racing head on into BEVs without getting 

their buyers ready, it's a dangerous assumption that buyers will just follow you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The crazy part is that Ford and GM basically wasted the last ten years or so by not heavily promoting 

hybrids, be that economy or as Power adders. There was an opportunity to deliver hybrid tech to 

truck and utility users much earlier than now  and basically have a whole generation of buyers ready 

and accepting of electrification. All that work convincing ICE buyers to give up their gas engines is 

still there needing to be done by Ford and GM yet they're racing head on into BEVs without getting 

their buyers ready, it's a dangerous assumption that buyers will just follow you.

 

I think younger buyers aren't concerned about BEV adoption and will go for them.  The question is older ones.  And I also think it depends on the product; for something like F-series - with buyers that are more entrenched in the ICE camp, they're introducing a hybrid AND BEV model alongside the ICE model, so you can pick your flavor short term until there's a full transition there.

 

Vs. something like Edge - buyers in that segment are more open to a BEV model, especially as time goes on.

 

Then there's also the "if everyone switches to BEVs, there won't be an ICE choice anyway" argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The author in the original linked article makes interesting points. First, his bonifides:

Quote

Many politicians are even considering banning gasoline-powered cars within a few years in favor of electric vehicles (EVs), all in the name of saving the planet. 

This has significant meaning to me. As a third-generation automobile dealer, I need to get ahead of the curve and prepare for what is next. I want to sell what people want to buy. I have driven the Volkswagen Golf EV, the Honda Clarity plug-in (PEV), and now the Hyundai Kona EV. All have good road characteristics and operate similarly to gasoline-powered cars, with the exception of how they are powered. I installed a Level II charger at my home. The cost: about $850. I am fortunate that my fuse box is located in the garage, so I did not need much additional wiring. The garage is where I charge these EVs overnight.

 

 

Next, his practical experience when he has to venture beyond his home charger (what he expects many consumers will have to do):

Quote

What is it like to have to depend upon a public charging stations? Tesla has a robust, nationwide rapid-charging infrastructure, but Tesla uses a proprietary charging plug that does not work with other makes of vehicles. Volkswagen, as part of its diesel settlement, has constructed a large charging network under the name of Electrify America. Electrify America has the closest rapid chargers to both my home and my office.

Driving from my home and with about 25 miles of battery range (10% of capacity), I headed off to the Reston Virginia fast charger, located in an office park. It is a few miles farther than the local gasoline station that I normally use. It had three charging towers, each with two cords. One of the cords fits only the Nissan Leaf. There were four 350 kW chargers and one 50 kW charger to select from. I chose the 50 kW charger, plugged in the cord, inserted my credit card, and experienced my first public fast charge.

How long it takes a battery depends upon four things: the capacity of the charger, the capacity of the battery, the battery discharge condition, and the rate of charge that the battery will accept. The Kona will accept up to a 75 kW rate of charge.

 

Fast chargers will bring the battery only to an 80% total charge due to the limitations of lithium batteries. Charging above 80% will damage the battery. Since I arrived at the charging station with ten percent capacity remaining, I received an additional 70% charge, which gave me about 190 miles total range. It required one hour and ten minutes.

I later charged with a 150 kW and 350 kW charger, but the time expended was no less. 

 

And then, some time/cost analysis:
Quote

What struck me first was how this could possibly work for me if I had to rely entirely on fast chargers and instead of my home charger. I drive at least 80 miles each day, which means I would have to recharge my Kona every other day assuming that I did not do more driving than just between my home and the office. Since it required over one hour to charge the battery, I would have to spend over 200 hours annually charging my vehicle – the equivalent of 25 eight-hour working days. And this assumes that I never had to wait in line for another vehicle to finish charging and that the charging station was nearby when I needed one. If I lived in a town home, or an apartment, without access to a Level II home charger, I would have to rely entirely on the public fast-charging network. And instead of a 250-mile range, I would have only about a 190-mile range to work with.

Next, I used the nearest fast-charging station from my office. It is 12 miles distant, a 20-minute drive each way. If I had to rely entirely on this charger, it would require one hour and 40 minutes every other day, or 300 hours every year. This would be equal to 37 eight-hour work days annually.

 

For me, that's the money part of his article. I have a difficult time believing the average consumer will put up with that much time loss. Not the early adopters, the average consumers who ultimately will determine the market success or failure of EVs. 

Edited by Harley Lover

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The crazy part is that Ford and GM basically wasted the last ten years or so by not heavily promoting 

hybrids, be that economy or as Power adders. There was an opportunity to deliver hybrid tech to 

truck and utility users much earlier than now  and basically have a whole generation of buyers ready 

and accepting of electrification. All that work convincing ICE buyers to give up their gas engines is 

still there needing to be done by Ford and GM yet they're racing head on into BEVs without getting 

their buyers ready, it's a dangerous assumption that buyers will just follow you.

Good points Jpd80. Ford nor GM never made a full commitment to hybrids like Toyota did. All they did was put their toe in the water. They never built a robust battery supply chain. And even now Mach E and F-150 BEVs look like low volume production models dependent upon offshore battery suplliers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

Good points Jpd80. Ford nor GM never made a full commitment to hybrids like Toyota did. All they did was put their toe in the water. They never built a robust battery supply chain. And even now Mach E and F-150 BEVs look like low volume production models dependent upon offshore battery suplliers.

Right when Ford needed to double down with a second generation Escape Hybrid, they pulled out because their market research told them things they wanted to hear.....imagine if Escape was now selling 30k-40k a month like RAV4 with half of them hybrids........what’s wrong with this picture?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our neighbors decided to go full in on Tesla EVs and puchased a Model X and Model 3.  They loved them at first, except for trying to keep both charged with one home charging station.  But that love affair ended quickly after their first long road trip in the X.  They carefully planned the trip and charging points through Tesla, but the extra non-productive time added in both directions was a deal breaker.  Within a couple months after that trip they traded the Model X for a Jeep Wrangler and the Model 3 for a Camry Hybrid.  They say they'll never consider a pure EV again until they can fill up anywhere in 5 minutes.  Likewise, we love everything about our Aviator GT except for keeping it charged.... but it's a keeper because the full performance Ecoboost eliminates the need for charging it on a long trip.  But if they can solve the charging times/locations problem... ICEs will be headed toward the history books.

Edited by CoolScoop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Right when Ford needed to double down with a second generation Escape Hybrid, they pulled out because their market research told them things they wanted to hear.....imagine if Escape was now selling 30k-40k a month like RAV4 with half of them hybrids........what’s wrong with this picture?

 

I'm not sure that's entirely true.   At the time Prius and Leaf were kicking ass and I know my theory at the time was that hybrid drivers wanted everyone to know they were driving a hybrid so it made sense to go the C-Max route.   In hindsight Escape would have probably done better but given the Prius success it wasn't a terrible strategy.

 

Those resources also went to Fusion and MKZ HEVs and Energis and they did pretty well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^

https://evadoption.com/ev-sales/federal-ev-tax-credit-phase-out-tracker-by-automaker/

 

As of last June, Ford was in fifth place (out of 19 manufacturers) just behind Toyota in total EV/PHEV sales.  With the Aviator, Corsair and Escape PHEVs and Mach-E ramping up, Ford's remaining tax credit elegibility will be shrinking fast.

Edited by CoolScoop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, CoolScoop said:

^^^

https://evadoption.com/ev-sales/federal-ev-tax-credit-phase-out-tracker-by-automaker/

 

As of last June, Ford was in fifth place (out of 19 manufacturers) just behind Toyota in total EV/PHEV sales.  With the Aviator, Corsair and Escape PHEVs and Mach-E ramping up, Ford's remaining tax credit elegibility will be shrinking fast.

 

Thank you CoolScoop sir. Electrek posted a good article last week summarizing what EV/PHEV customers in the U.S. can expect for federal and state tax credits. Which electric vehicles still qualify for US federal tax credit? - Electrek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several thoughts on electric vehicle charging. With the shift to solar and wind power, where is the overnight charge energy coming from? California wants to eliminate gas as a cooking, HW and heating source. Convert all to electric heat pumps, stoves, HW heater etc. Now add an electric car or two to charge. Can your main breaker panel handle the load? What about service line to your house, neighborhood? Not an electrician myself, but had to check this out when I added AC to an "all electric home". Fortunately I was OK. Adding 240 V level 2 charger to that house would be a major electrical upgrade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Several thoughts on electric vehicle charging. With the shift to solar and wind power, where is the overnight charge energy coming from?

.

.

.Adding 240 V level 2 charger to that house would be a major electrical upgrade.

 

Overnight charging would come from the storage batteries that the solar panels charged all day and wind also blows at night...upgrades will happen as the grid is updated. I have said this many times before, I believe we are at the precipice of change here and our energy consumption will look a lot different as little as 10 years from now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, twintornados said:

Overnight charging would come from the storage batteries that the solar panels charged all day and wind also blows at night...upgrades will happen as the grid is updated. I have said this many times before, I believe we are at the precipice of change here and our energy consumption will look a lot different as little as 10 years from now.

 

Also electrical need drops in the evening, even during the summer-the temps drop and the demand for AC lowers.

 

There are other things like going to LED lighting that will help with consumption rates-years back I knew a guy who had a small shop who had the local electric company came out and replaced all his bulbs in his store with more efficient ones to cut down on usage for free....just think of the savings if you can cut back usage in each house even 5-10% and multiply that by hundreds of houses and you'll see a decent amount of savings. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Several thoughts on electric vehicle charging. With the shift to solar and wind power, where is the overnight charge energy coming from? California wants to eliminate gas as a cooking, HW and heating source. Convert all to electric heat pumps, stoves, HW heater etc. Now add an electric car or two to charge. Can your main breaker panel handle the load? What about service line to your house, neighborhood? Not an electrician myself, but had to check this out when I added AC to an "all electric home". Fortunately I was OK. Adding 240 V level 2 charger to that house would be a major electrical upgrade.

 

I think older houses would be grandfather in?

 

Not to mention Cali isn't the rest of the country and not using NG for heating in the midwest or Northeast would be a complete non-starter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×