edselford Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 Bob Your Point on cost of the 3.5 ecoboost is a very good one on f150. Then if you want to add the hybrid system to that, the costs are much greater than a gm hybrid system utilizing a 5.3 V8. Maybe the 6.8 is designed for future hybrid f150 where they run in an Atkinson cycle and utilize the electric motor to fill in the loss in torque of the V8 due to the more efficient Atkinson cycle. utilizing the 5.0 V8 with its 32 valve doc would not be as cost efficient! edselford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 16 hours ago, edselford said: Bob Your Point on cost of the 3.5 ecoboost is a very good one on f150. Then if you want to add the hybrid system to that, the costs are much greater than a gm hybrid system utilizing a 5.3 V8. Maybe the 6.8 is designed for future hybrid f150 where they run in an Atkinson cycle and utilize the electric motor to fill in the loss in torque of the V8 due to the more efficient Atkinson cycle. utilizing the 5.0 V8 with its 32 valve doc would not be as cost efficient! edselford But will customers be willing to give Ford additional profit on the 6.8L or will they expect it to be a more cost effective solution? It may be available as a top end towing option on the F150, but I doubt it will replace the 3.5l EB or powerboost. The 3.5 simply gets better mpg for CAFE and works just fine for those who drive the truck to work everyday and tow a small boat or travel trailer on weekends. That being said, I’d like to see a short deck 4.0-4.5l coyote EB or powerboost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) On 5/22/2022 at 12:25 AM, Bob Rosadini said: Question...isn't the 6.8 supposed to be a clone of the 7.3? And it is my understanding the 7.3 gets great reviews as a towing choice. Read one guys view that it was a better choice for him than PS he previously had..no regrets. Could it be a replacement for 3.5 EB in 150? Less costly to produce, might be more attractive to a lot of people who are still doubtful about longevity of the EB in extended towing operations-and a reason why the GM V-8's are a better choice for these people??? All the attributes of the 7.3 that made it a good design for commercial applications in a smaller package??? If the 6.8 is a clone of the 7.3 V8, why is Ford building a dedicated assembly plant? Sounds like it’s different enough to need its own production line…… A big capacity engine with hybrid may still be a problem to do under CAFE as the highway mileage improvement is way less than the city cycle. The old 6.2 F150 in 2WD could barely get above 18 mpg, even with today’s alloy body and 10-speed hybrid, I wonder if a 6.8 hybrid could get above HWY 20 mpg. For CAFE, that’s not good but for entry level Class 2B, it may serve as a great F200 hybrid for people that do more than the occasional towing job but want better diesel like economy (+10mpg) when towing… 17 hours ago, edselford said: Bob Your Point on cost of the 3.5 ecoboost is a very good one on f150. Then if you want to add the hybrid system to that, the costs are much greater than a gm hybrid system utilizing a 5.3 V8. Maybe the 6.8 is designed for future hybrid f150 where they run in an Atkinson cycle and utilize the electric motor to fill in the loss in torque of the V8 due to the more efficient Atkinson cycle. utilizing the 5.0 V8 with its 32 valve doc would not be as cost efficient! edselford The problem with F150 and towing is CAFE doesn’t consider the efficiency gains of a larger engine when towing. GM is hardly likely to revisit a gas hybrid truck after the failure of the 6.0 hybrid Silverado in the early 2010s, the thing was embarrassed by the EB 3.5 V6 in F150. I’ve expressed similar thoughts on hybrid 6.8 but what makes me wonder is dedicated manufacturing facility, the 6.8 must be different enough to justify its own production line….wondering if it’s a bigger bore 6.2 (7.3’s 4.22”?) with SOHC heads or better…3V/4V? The use of VCT and 4V heads would allow the use in two applications, 1) Atkinson cycle for hybrid application and 2)normal cycle for HP applications. Whatever Ford is planning, the 6.8 must be for more than just a special hand built engine line….they’re up to something all right….. Edited May 23, 2022 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 Guys, My point on 6.8.... -I thought it was being built in Canada along side the 7.3. Wasn't there a big announcement by the CAW??? I guess JP I missed the news it was being built in a new facility??? -I think there are still a lot of people turned off by the complexity of the EB concept-be it turbos, OH cams etc. In particular the GM diehards. And by the way, didn't we just read news that GM's now are the most popular when it comes to people doing research? Don't remember exact words but if more people are "prospecting" GM than Ford, can't be good-and there has to be a reason. Back to EB, don't get me wrong, my two sons and I have had/have 8 EB's. Knock on wood no issues-hope I didn't jinx us. But if I were buying a new truck would I buy an EB/OHC whatever or a 7.3? It would be a 7.3...KISS formula applies in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 29 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said: Guys, My point on 6.8.... -I thought it was being built in Canada along side the 7.3. Wasn't there a big announcement by the CAW??? I guess JP I missed the news it was being built in a new facility??? -I think there are still a lot of people turned off by the complexity of the EB concept-be it turbos, OH cams etc. In particular the GM diehards. And by the way, didn't we just read news that GM's now are the most popular when it comes to people doing research? Don't remember exact words but if more people are "prospecting" GM than Ford, can't be good-and there has to be a reason. Back to EB, don't get me wrong, my two sons and I have had/have 8 EB's. Knock on wood no issues-hope I didn't jinx us. But if I were buying a new truck would I buy an EB/OHC whatever or a 7.3? It would be a 7.3...KISS formula applies in my mind. oops...Make that 9 EB's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 Ford is not going to replace 3.5 EB in F150 with a V8. The CAFE and CO2 math will never work. 6.8 is highly unlike to ever see action in light duty vehicles (under 8,500 lbs GVWR) because Ford could get better CAFE numbers with a turbo V6. So no F-150 or Mustang, unless some sort of super limited edition build. The original thinking was 6.8 is the new base engine for things like Superduty and E-series but as we quickly observed, it doesn't make any sense because Ford can just put a less powerful version of 7.3 in since we don't have displacement based annual tax. So the only logical answer is that 6.8 has some specific application requirements that different from 7.3 enough to warrant a new (or partially new) top end. This is where I first guessed that it is a hybrid only engine for medium duty. Ford hasn't given any details on the engine so it's hard to really figure out where they are going with it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 9 hours ago, bzcat said: Ford is not going to replace 3.5 EB in F150 with a V8. The CAFE and CO2 math will never work. 6.8 is highly unlike to ever see action in light duty vehicles (under 8,500 lbs GVWR) because Ford could get better CAFE numbers with a turbo V6. So no F-150 or Mustang, unless some sort of super limited edition build. The original thinking was 6.8 is the new base engine for things like Superduty and E-series but as we quickly observed, it doesn't make any sense because Ford can just put a less powerful version of 7.3 in since we don't have displacement based annual tax. So the only logical answer is that 6.8 has some specific application requirements that different from 7.3 enough to warrant a new (or partially new) top end. This is where I first guessed that it is a hybrid only engine for medium duty. Ford hasn't given any details on the engine so it's hard to really figure out where they are going with it. At this point any new engine should support electrification as standard like the Mercedes I6. Even if it is 48V. I’m guessing it will be a Coyote like dohc 32v beast with 48volt or full hybrid. Hybrid and cylinder deactivation should keep fuel economy reasonable while providing close to the power output of a supercharged 5.2l predator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 The other thing to keep in mind is that we don't know what Ford's plan to compete in medium duty looks like beyond flogging the E-series and stripped chassis going until no one wants to buy ICE. That day is coming sooner than most people here wants to believe. Ford is the only medium duty player in the US that haven't articulated its product plan after 2030 - it's clear that everyone except Ford will be doing EV and a handful will dabble in hydrogen fuel cell. 6.8 hybrid may have been Ford's plan but the market forecast has shifted towards EV so suddenly that I would not be surprised if Ford has scrapped any further drivetrain update for E-series and F650. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 1 hour ago, bzcat said: The other thing to keep in mind is that we don't know what Ford's plan to compete in medium duty looks like beyond flogging the E-series and stripped chassis going until no one wants to buy ICE. That day is coming sooner than most people here wants to believe. Ford is the only medium duty player in the US that haven't articulated its product plan after 2030 - it's clear that everyone except Ford will be doing EV and a handful will dabble in hydrogen fuel cell. 6.8 hybrid may have been Ford's plan but the market forecast has shifted towards EV so suddenly that I would not be surprised if Ford has scrapped any further drivetrain update for E-series and F650. With the uncertainty of charging infrastructure and range in those larger products, to me it’d made sense to have a parallel product plan of ice/hybrid and EV for the time being. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 3 hours ago, bzcat said: The other thing to keep in mind is that we don't know what Ford's plan to compete in medium duty looks like beyond flogging the E-series and stripped chassis going until no one wants to buy ICE. That day is coming sooner than most people here wants to believe. Ford is the only medium duty player in the US that haven't articulated its product plan after 2030 - it's clear that everyone except Ford will be doing EV and a handful will dabble in hydrogen fuel cell. 6.8 hybrid may have been Ford's plan but the market forecast has shifted towards EV so suddenly that I would not be surprised if Ford has scrapped any further drivetrain update for E-series and F650. Very true and you brought up a good point that I had not thought of. Even GM has BrightDrop (saw one in FedEx service last week for the first time) and has announced they have a medium duty under development that will be available as a fuel cell or BEV. I wonder if Ford's strategy of running separate BEV and ICE divisions has something to do with this apparent lack of a zero-carbon plan for larger commercial vehicles. Is it possible that large commercial vehicle responsibility will eventually migrate to the EV side? I don't think a 6.8L hybrid was ever in the plans. I am still leaning to the idea it will be a more efficient and cleaner replacement for the 7.3L.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, rmc523 said: With the uncertainty of charging infrastructure and range in those larger products, to me it’d made sense to have a parallel product plan of ice/hybrid and EV for the time being. Fleets operating medium duties won't have a problem with charging and they are primarily interested in total ownership cost and ESG reporting requirements, not a political agenda. Look at what happened to the municipal bus market - EV bus went from a fringe to the majority of new RFP is just a span of 3 or 4 years because operating costs are so much lower. Basically, the last of diesel or CNG transit buses are being delivered in the next couple of year in North America based on orders placed a few years ago. All the new orders are primarily EV so by 2025 or so, most new buses being delivered will be EV. Transit buses have a fixed replacement schedule because FTA grants says buses purchased with Federal funds has to be replaced in 12 years. FTA rules doesn't say it has to be replaced by EV - just the economics is too compelling, especially if charging infrastructure can be paid for by other funding sources. Private medium duty fleets do not have forced retirement time so the EV takeover will take a bit longer but we are still talking about 1 maybe 2 replacement cycles for ICE to be phased out of most large fleet operators. Most public companies have to adopt ESG reporting requirements by 2025 so they are all concerned about their carbon footprint and most are planning to stop ICE fleet procurements after the current orders are filled. You are not going to see the likes of Pepsi or FedEx still procuring ICE tenders and stripped chassis after 2025 or so. Just watch. Edited May 25, 2022 by bzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 Not so long ago, Fords Super Duty buyers told it that they really wanted a big low tech gasoline V8, so Ford finally gave them one and the money flowed in. I can’t see Ford giving up those cash cows until people start telling them they want to switch. And seriously, the sales numbers of Medium Duty trucks (class 4-7) is comparatively low to sales of class 2A 2B and 3, those combined with E Series is around 10,000 sales a month, easy money the way they are now but probably hard to justify BEVs at the moment (other higher priorities). Ford charges $10,000 premium for diesel, surely there’s room to develop a gasoline hybrid that keeps down costs in stop/start running where regen would save gasoline and wear on friction brakes. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edselford Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 There was a recent article in the Windsor Star newspaper that said ford would be making IC engines at least to 2040. The article mentioned the 5.0 V8, the 7.3 V8 and the upcoming 6.8! It seemed to indicate that the ongoing chip shortage has delayed the 6.8. Maybe, the 6.8 will be built on a refurbished 6.2 line when the equipment is moved to the Windsor facility? Also, if the7.3 V8 cylinder head fits on the existing 6.2 block with the cylinder head bolts in the same place, it is likely the 6.8 will be a reworked 6.2 block but with a single cam in block design. I expect a 106.75 mm bore and a 95 mm stroke like the existing 6.2. If it is a cast iron block, expect it to slide into the Super Duty. If it is used anywhere else, expect an aluminum or CGI block material. edselford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/26/2022 at 1:44 AM, edselford said: There was a recent article in the Windsor Star newspaper that said ford would be making IC engines at least to 2040. The article mentioned the 5.0 V8, the 7.3 V8 and the upcoming 6.8! It seemed to indicate that the ongoing chip shortage has delayed the 6.8. Maybe, the 6.8 will be built on a refurbished 6.2 line when the equipment is moved to the Windsor facility? Also, if the7.3 V8 cylinder head fits on the existing 6.2 block with the cylinder head bolts in the same place, it is likely the 6.8 will be a reworked 6.2 block but with a single cam in block design. I expect a 106.75 mm bore and a 95 mm stroke like the existing 6.2. If it is a cast iron block, expect it to slide into the Super Duty. If it is used anywhere else, expect an aluminum or CGI block material. edselford The 7.3 V8 is about 100 lbs heavier than the 5.0 V8 Coyote, perhaps that makes the 6.8 less likely to have weight saving tech. In saying that, part of me wonders if it’s time to try a well designed alloy block V8 in Super Duty and see if the better cooling properties of aluminium help with temperature control in sustained load, heck, Ford has used alloy heads for decades now…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 We're not at the "tipping point" for electrification, but with Daimler getting an order for 800 electric Class 8 Cascadias we're at the point where every truck maker needs electric versions of their trucks. While Cummins is making their future IC engines fuel agnostic, their new Meritor acquisition is buying Seimen's truck electric propulsion unit. VW Group's Traton Navistar operation seems about to introduce a new drivetrain, my bet it's the U.S. introduction of the Scania Super IC powertrain but the trucking media is speculating it's an electric powertrain... Maybe both? Electrification creates a market opening for whoever has a working high power electric powertrain and with no need for a high hood to cover a big IC engine, a maker like Ford could re-enter Class 8 with a competitive truck re-using an existing cab and adapting the F150 Lightning powertrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 (edited) Speaking of modern Ford engines in cars, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyeOd8cGDDE Edited May 28, 2022 by jpd80 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 I follow REVan Evan and Brian Wolfe, they had an interesting live stream discussion the other day. Wolfe was in charge if engine development at Ford and gives some good insight why the 6.2L never went anywhere and the real reason for the pushrod 7.3L. Also note someone asked about the 6.8L Godzilla, but the question was not answered. And that was not the fiirst time it wasn't answered.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted September 4, 2022 Author Share Posted September 4, 2022 What’s new on this subject? Has anyone heard any news at all? September is S650 Mustang reveal month I know but will Ford “sweeten the pot” with a 6.8 V8 engine announcement? I heard some disturbing news the other day on another forum that three top Ford ICE engine dyno engineers were handed their walking papers. That’s very sad news indeed and I hope those guys get an opportunity to continue their careers in some other capacity. I’m really starting to think the 6.8 is not going to happen. The F150 Lightning is exceeding most expectations and I’m starting to see that EV may even be practical for 3/4 ton trucks sooner rather than later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 5 hours ago, Stray Kat said: What’s new on this subject? Has anyone heard any news at all? September is S650 Mustang reveal month I know but will Ford “sweeten the pot” with a 6.8 V8 engine announcement? I heard some disturbing news the other day on another forum that three top Ford ICE engine dyno engineers were handed their walking papers. That’s very sad news indeed and I hope those guys get an opportunity to continue their careers in some other capacity. I’m really starting to think the 6.8 is not going to happen. The F150 Lightning is exceeding most expectations and I’m starting to see that EV may even be practical for 3/4 ton trucks sooner rather than later. To be fair, if the 6.8 was canned, it's probably not a great loss to the world. The 5.0 is a better choice for the mustang than the 6.8 ever could be, and I assume the take rate for a 6.8 f-150 wouldn't be massive either. Considering that it would likely cost thousands more than a 5.0 f-150, at that point, most buyers would just buy a super duty instead. The 6.8 just never made that much sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 I did see shots of a Mustang prototype running around with a 7.3L 'Godzilla' in it, but from what I understand it was cobbled together for 'crate engine' testing and was not destined for production. The car had a modified hood to accommodate the 7.3's intake, but there is a low profile intake under development for Mustang and other passenger car swaps. I didn't hear about the dyno engineers being laid off, but I have heard rumors that ICE development at 'Ford Blue' has essentially come to an end. Have not heard anything about the 6.8L in a long time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfan Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Stray Kat said: What’s new on this subject? Has anyone heard any news at all? September is S650 Mustang reveal month I know but will Ford “sweeten the pot” with a 6.8 V8 engine announcement? I heard some disturbing news the other day on another forum that three top Ford ICE engine dyno engineers were handed their walking papers. That’s very sad news indeed and I hope those guys get an opportunity to continue their careers in some other capacity. I’m really starting to think the 6.8 is not going to happen. The F150 Lightning is exceeding most expectations and I’m starting to see that EV may even be practical for 3/4 ton trucks sooner rather than later. 2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: I did see shots of a Mustang prototype running around with a 7.3L 'Godzilla' in it, but from what I understand it was cobbled together for 'crate engine' testing and was not destined for production. The car had a modified hood to accommodate the 7.3's intake, but there is a low profile intake under development for Mustang and other passenger car swaps. I didn't hear about the dyno engineers being laid off, but I have heard rumors that ICE development at 'Ford Blue' has essentially come to an end. Have not heard anything about the 6.8L in a long time now. Reminds me of the early 1980s when everyone thought the V-8 was dead. Then the market suddenly demanded them again, and it was a crash program to get new V-8s on the market with the 4.6. Keep in mind also, that if in-house engineering work stops, it does not mean a program is dead. A lot of times the design/development work is outsourced to third-party job shops. Nevertheless, it looks like the old habit of short-term thinking is again visiting Ford. Hope it does not bite them in the behind. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan7 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 I believe when this engine was last discussed, the said it was supposed to be put in production when the supply chain was more regular and able to support a third shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 On 9/5/2022 at 12:54 AM, Footballfan said: Reminds me of the early 1980s when everyone thought the V-8 was dead. Then the market suddenly demanded them again, and it was a crash program to get new V-8s on the market with the 4.6. Keep in mind also, that if in-house engineering work stops, it does not mean a program is dead. A lot of times the design/development work is outsourced to third-party job shops. Nevertheless, it looks like the old habit of short-term thinking is again visiting Ford. Hope it does not bite them in the behind. Demand for V8 never went away in the 1980s. There was a temporary dip in demand the late 1970s when Ford and other OEMs just couldn't get it to work good enough with catalytic converter and other emission equipment and output became anemic. The buying public responded with thanks but no thanks. But the appetite for performance was always there. What's different now is V8 is not the only game in town as far as performance is concerned and in fact, it is often the inferior option. So demand is going to tapper off. And I haven't even mentioned regulatory limitations. I type this as an owner of a V8... I love the noise it makes and the power but I also know that its replacement when the time comes will probably be electric. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 6.8 silently killed off while SC 5.2 retained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 On 9/5/2022 at 3:54 AM, Footballfan said: Reminds me of the early 1980s when everyone thought the V-8 was dead. Then the market suddenly demanded them again, and it was a crash program to get new V-8s on the market with the 4.6. The 4.6L and 5.4L Triton motors were not a "crash program" to get new V8's to market, they were designed as a replacement for the 5.0L, 5.8L with the 6.8L Triton V10 as a replacement for the 7.4L "big block" V8 so that one design could replace all three engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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