Ford pushes back EV target, warns of wider losses due to slower-than-expected adoption

[zipnzap]

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/27/ford-pushes-back-ev-target-warns-of-wider-losses.html

 

"While Ford overall was solidly profitable during the second quarter, the Model e unit posted an operating loss of $1.8 billion."

 

Yikes...

[Rick73]

As Ford loses billions on EVs, the company embraces hybrids
 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/28/ford-embraces-hybrids-as-it-loses-billions-on-evs.html

 

 

Farley states customers want hybrids and Ford will give them more and better options.  Interesting point on buyers wanting to use batteries in other ways, like Pro Power Onboard.  I’ve said before a Transit van with battery power for hotel loads directly from Ford would be extremely successful for RV use.  It would revolutionize camper vans, though a small segment.  There is no competition presently.

[paintguy]

Interesting. Ford has promised hybrid offerings several times and then backed off. Had a 2009 Escape Hybrid (wife's vehice). When we went to replace, Ford offered CMAX,  higher mileage, but less capable vehicle. No AWD option. My wife ended up buying a non Ford product. Now Escape hybrid is back, and a plug in. But still no AWD. If we want that, need to upgrade to Lincoln Corsair. Or move up to Explorer hybrid. Edge and MKX hybrids were promised and canceled. Now Nautilus will have a hybrid. Made in China. Might have some buyer resistance with that.

[rperez817]

The "pushed back" target for Ford's 600k unit run rate for BEV may not be as prolonged as some people including me initially thought. In the 2Q 2023 Financials thread topic, I thought that when Jim Farley mentioned 2024 as the revised timeframe, it would be a year later at the end of 2024 (originally the target was for the end of 2023). But akirby correctly pointed out Ford's target could in fact be achieved earlier in 2024, perhaps as early as 1Q.

 

On 7/28/2023 at 7:39 AM, akirby said:

They did not move it a year later at this point.  They said sometime in 2024.  Could be 1Q, 2Q or 3Q.

 

[rperez817]

39 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

I’ve said before a Transit van with battery power for hotel loads directly from Ford would be extremely successful for RV use.  It would revolutionize camper vans, though a small segment.  There is no competition presently.

 

I agree Rick73. Winnebago is currently testing its eRV2 all-electric RV prototypes, which are based on Ford Transit. It would be nice to have something like this directly from Ford.

 

[Rick73]

10 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

I agree Rick73. Winnebago is currently testing its eRV2 all-electric RV prototypes, which are based on Ford Transit. It would be nice to have something like this directly from Ford.

 

 

The limited driving range of the E-Transit (less than 100 miles useable) would be a deal breaker for over 99% of buyers who like camping in remote locations.  That’s why Winnebago made it clear this was a design for testing purposes.  I saw that unit and spoke with Winnebago technical guys at RV show and design is not integrated as it should be.  It’s basically a cargo E-Transit van built out much like ICE campers.  It’s a real waste of capabilities in my opinion.

 

A hybrid Transit with roughly 10 kWh or more of battery capacity (maybe PHEV ???) could have a “camp” mode similar to Tesla Y, where air conditioning or heat are powered by vehicle battery.  In case of Transit, it would allow elimination of add-on air conditioners and electrical systems that are expensive and unreliable due to poor design and installation by RV industry.  Besides, why duplicate items that are already there?  Ford already has Pro Power Onboard that could handle all other hotel loads in a compact van camper, and the auto engine start to recharge battery, etc.  from F-150 Hybrid.  Technology just has to be packaged into what customers want and need.

 

From article:

 

“What the customer really likes is when we take a hybrid system that’s more efficient for certain duty cycles and then we add new capabilities because of the batteries,” Farley said.

 

Among those new capabilities: Ford’s “Pro Power Onboard” system, which gives customers the ability to tap the truck’s electricity via outlets in the pickup bed to power tools at a job site — or a refrigerator at a tailgate party — eliminating the need to carry a separate generator.

 

 

[Texasota]

I think Ford’s renewed emphasis on hybrids makes a lot of sense. Given the current restraints on battery resources it seems shortsighted to pour those limited resources into full BEVs when Ford can build 4-6 PHEV battery packs compared to one BEV battery pack (depending on models).
 

Getting 4-6 PHEVs on urban roads as compared to one BEV is better all around. I’ve been waiting since October of 2022 for my 2023 Escape PHEV because of the battery resources being prioritized to BEVs. There is strong demand for hybrids. 

[Harley Lover]

46 minutes ago, Texasota said:

I think Ford’s renewed emphasis on hybrids makes a lot of sense. Given the current restraints on battery resources it seems shortsighted to pour those limited resources into full BEVs when Ford can build 4-6 PHEV battery packs compared to one BEV battery pack (depending on models).
 

Getting 4-6 PHEVs on urban roads as compared to one BEV is better all around. I’ve been waiting since October of 2022 for my 2023 Escape PHEV because of the battery resources being prioritized to BEVs. There is strong demand for hybrids. 

 

I'm not certain that Ford are doing what you think; from the linked article: 

Quote

“What the customer really likes is when we take a hybrid system that’s more efficient for certain duty cycles and then we add new capabilities because of the batteries,” Farley said. We’re seeing a lot of customers like that combination of using the batteries for something beyond just moving the vehicle,” Farley said. “And so we’re just listening to the market.” “But don’t think of them in the traditional sense of an Escape hybrid or a [Toyota] Prius,” Farley said. “They’re probably going to come to light differently than most people think.”

 

That doesn't sound like adding 'traditional' hybrids or PHEVs, does it? 

[.I.]

Ford of Europe will be in big trouble. No ICE vehicles by 2030?  No way.  Now, with the Fiesta, the Focus, the Mondeo, the C-Max , all dead, what will Ford sell?? 

[Texasota]

2 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

That doesn't sound like adding 'traditional' hybrids or PHEVs, does it? 

No, I didn't mean to suggest that Ford is stating that, but I think it would make sense if they did. It don't think it would be surprising if Ford allocates additional resources to hybrids which are selling well if BEV sales continue slowing. Ford has been talking up the hybrids (not sure if they are new) that they will have at the September Detroit auto show. We know that a Ranger PHEV and Bronco PHEV are coming and it would be interesting if one of them is revealed at the Detroit auto show.

[Texasota]

45 minutes ago, .I. said:

Ford of Europe will be in big trouble. No ICE vehicles by 2030?  No way.  Now, with the Fiesta, the Focus, the Mondeo, the C-Max , all dead, what will Ford sell?? 

The Ford Kuga PHEV (i.e. Escape) is consistently a top (or best) PHEV seller in Europe.

[Rick73]

3 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

I'm not certain that Ford are doing what you think; from the linked article: 

 

That doesn't sound like adding 'traditional' hybrids or PHEVs, does it? 

Perhaps “enhanced” hybrids in lieu of “traditional?  From what Farley stated, it sounds to me that the “moving of vehicle” part of hybrid (powertrain) won’t necessarily be all that different than present hybrids, but that they may have additional functional features that would not be possible without the larger battery of a hybrid.  He used Pro Power Onboard as an example, as well as powering a refrigerator during tailgating, and not having to haul a generator.  Those are the kinds of things I expect will be coming, though different in that most of us haven’t anticipated.  I personally would like PPO if it could power my home’s fridge during extended power outages, or allow me to brew coffee, etc. after a hurricane.

[jpd80]

As 2030 deadline approaches, Europe will have to soften its ICE ban once it realises that the hard cut isn’t going to work.

[7Mary3]

Starting to get nervous.  This is a punt.

[.I.]

13 hours ago, Texasota said:

The Ford Kuga PHEV (i.e. Escape) is consistently a top (or best) PHEV seller in Europe.

Is not in the 20 best seller list of Europe… Ford hasn’t any vehicle in that list.  Ford is turning in a marginal brand in the continent. 

[Texasota]

4 hours ago, .I. said:

Is not in the 20 best seller list of Europe… Ford hasn’t any vehicle in that list.  Ford is turning in a marginal brand in the continent. 

I said it was a top PHEV seller which it is:

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/04/ford-kuga-was-europes-most-popular-phev-in-q1-2023/amp/

[mackinaw]

5 hours ago, .I. said:

Is not in the 20 best seller list of Europe… Ford hasn’t any vehicle in that list.  Ford is turning in a marginal brand in the continent. 

 

For cars, probably yes, but like in the U.S., they dominate the (highly profitable) commercial vehicle market.

 

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2023/01/13/business-customers-help-ford-pro-set-record-eighth-straight-year.html

[jniffen]

If the Maverick Pickup had a hybrid AWD, I would have been leaning toward pulling the trigger on that one.

But purchased a Nautilus instead, getting 24-25 MPG weekly.  Not terrible for the V6 model with just 2,300 miles on it.

 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, jniffen said:

If the Maverick Pickup had a hybrid AWD, I would have been leaning toward pulling the trigger on that one.

But purchased a Nautilus instead, getting 24-25 MPG weekly.  Not terrible for the V6 model with just 2,300 miles on it.

 

To be fair, I live in Utah, we have some of the worst winters in the states. We've gotten along perfectly fine with our FWD cars. This last winter was one of our worst on record and our maverick hybrid handled it beautifully. AWD is nice, but it's not a mandatory feature for many imo. 

[GearheadGrrrl]

Same here in Minnesota- My lone 4WD vehicle, a '98 Ranger, is sitting all apart and I'm not too motivated to put it back together. Seems a lot of people buy 4WD/AWD to make up for lack of driving skills...

[Flying68]

Ford needs to bring the hybrid F-250 with the full 7.2kW pro-power to market. Pair that electric motor with the 6.8 or better yet the 7.3 and you have a nice alternative to diesel for the weekend camping trip. Would make boondocking simpler.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Agreed, Pro Power would be a "killer ap" with a long bed and a topper or slide in camper! 

 

Drove to a threshing show in northern Minnesota yesterday, campgrounds full in that lakes area, $10 for a "meal" at the event, but they allowed free primitive camping- Would be great to keep the food cool in a little electric cooler all day, then fire up the microwave and have supper before calling it a night, followed by a hot breakfast in the mornin"!

[Rick73]

Pro Power Onboard seems a great feature for emergencies, but unless it was coupled with larger battery of a PHEV in size, it would have limited use for me while camping or boon-docking.  With a very-low-capacity battery like the one used in F-150 Hybrid, any real sustained electrical load would end up idling the truck’s engine constantly, or starting and stopping too often.

 

PPO with low-capacity battery may be OK to power a TV through the evening, but if trying to power an air conditioner or similar load, the vehicle’s engine would run too much.  If that was going to happen, I’d just run an inverter generator instead.  For me, having at least 10 kWh of battery capacity is key since I need and rely on air conditioning most of the year.

[Texasota]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Pro Power Onboard seems a great feature for emergencies, but unless it was coupled with larger battery of a PHEV in size, it would have limited use for me while camping or boon-docking.  With a very-low-capacity battery like the one used in F-150 Hybrid, any real sustained electrical load would end up idling the truck’s engine constantly, or starting and stopping too often.

 

PPO with low-capacity battery may be OK to power a TV through the evening, but if trying to power an air conditioner or similar load, the vehicle’s engine would run too much.  If that was going to happen, I’d just run an inverter generator instead.  For me, having at least 10 kWh of battery capacity is key since I need and rely on air conditioning most of the year.

The Ranger PHEV may be a great solution for you. I am planning on trading my 2020 Ranger in for a PHEV version in a few years.

[Rick73]

41 minutes ago, Texasota said:

The Ranger PHEV may be a great solution for you. I am planning on trading my 2020 Ranger in for a PHEV version in a few years.

I sometimes miss my old Ranger, but after owning a van for quite some time, would not go back to a truck for camping or long-distance road trips. My preference would be a PHEV van with built-in OEM camp mode.  The following describes what was expected/reported from Ford in Europe.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2023/new-ford-transit-custom/

 

What about the new Transit Custom Plug-in Hybrid?

Ford has confirmed that there will be some major changes to the plug-in hybrid Transit Custom, with the new model getting a much bigger petrol engine and battery combo.

The system is comparable to the one in the Ford Kuga PHEV, wand uses a 2.5-litre petrol engine and an 11.8kWh battery. This should bring an electric only range of 35 miles, which would be an improvement of 4.5 miles over the old model. It hasn’t confirmed a combined fuel economy just yet though.