Ford November 2023 Sales

[HotRunrGuy]

1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

I enjoyed his contributions on the EV end,

 

I agree, especially since, IIRC, he owned both a Tesla Model S AND a Mach-E, so he was speaking from real-life experience.

 

HRG

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

I enjoyed his contributions on the EV end, even if he got a bit of tunnel vision sometimes and was (I think) indirectly condescending with his over politeness. I always assumed he was on the spectrum (1000% not intended as an insult, really did like him)

I enjoyed his contributions also, not only on BEVs but policy regarding electrification, even if I didn’t agree with it all.  rperez817 is definitely intelligent and knowledgeable.  I like being informed on what others are thinking, regardless of whether I agree.

 

He doesn’t seem on spectrum at all to me.

[Rick73]

47 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

I agree, especially since, IIRC, he owned both a Tesla Model S AND a Mach-E, so he was speaking from real-life experience.

 

HRG

IIRC, he gave his older S to a family member and recently purchased a RWD Model.3.  I respect that he walks the walk. ? 

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, Captainp4 said:

I enjoyed his contributions on the EV end, even if he got a bit of tunnel vision sometimes and was (I think) indirectly condescending with his over politeness. I always assumed he was on the spectrum (1000% not intended as an insult, really did like him)

 

That outburst was rather strange IMO and reminded me of some trolls we've had here. 

[jpd80]

9 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

That outburst was rather strange IMO and reminded me of some trolls we've had here. 

Things really started going south when confirmation of slowing BEV sales across the industry came out,

I don’t think he could handle the truth that BEV rollout was going to take a lot longer than the early projections.

 

Many here  have been through several Ford and GM leadership cycles and know that thinks can and do change radically, so we tend to be less enthusiastic until we see just how engaged buyers actually are (sales depth).

 

The big question is if they can’t sell more than 50k/yr Lightnings now,  do they really need BOC in two years time?

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The big question is if they can’t sell more than 50k/yr Lightnings now,  do they really need BOC in two years time?

 

I'm thinking in the worst case they will centralize EV production for truck like products at the plant. There was documentation going around that the EV Ranger and Bronco would be built there at the end of the decade (2029). I'm sure other products outside of the T3 would be built there also and the production at MTP of the Lightning is just an additional line with the actual bodies/frames coming from the ICE line production line. 

[Rick73]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Many here  have been through several Ford and GM leadership cycles and know that thinks can and do change radically, so we tend to be less enthusiastic until we see just how engaged buyers actually are (sales depth).

Yes, and even after buyers are confirmed to be engaged, conditions can still change abruptly.  Germany suddenly ended subsidies for EVs due to budget limitations, and going by what happened in other countries, similar actions had significant adverse effect on demand.
 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/germany-end-e-vehicle-subsidy-programme-2023-12-16/

[Rick73]

Expected to hit Tesla hard being 100% BEV.

 

https://www.investors.com/news/electric-vehicle-subsidies-germany-ends-ev-bonus-abruptly-in-latest-blow-to-tesla/

[Captainp4]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Expected to hit Tesla hard being 100% BEV.

 

https://www.investors.com/news/electric-vehicle-subsidies-germany-ends-ev-bonus-abruptly-in-latest-blow-to-tesla/

I've seen that said a time or two, sounds like another buying opportunity ?

[jpd80]

Agree with all the above comments

 

For the best part of 2023 economists were predicting a rough 2024 with recession on most lips but now, the experts aren’t sure…..

 

All I’m saying is that predictions that seem certain at one point in time can be quite wrong or rather different when we get there… 2024 might be similar to 2023 without the predictions of impending doom.

 

The same could be said for BEV sales, it’s easy to be overly optimistic or pessimistic, finding the right blend of level head thinking is hard when we don’t know all the facts…

 

Maybe how Ford and GM react to change or buyer indifference is what matters….

Edited December 17, 2023 by jpd80

[ice-capades]

Editorial cartoon from today's Las Vegas Review-Journal...

 

[fordmantpw]

3 hours ago, ice-capades said:

Editorial cartoon from today's Las Vegas Review-Journal...

 

LOL! 

We do love our Mach-E GTPE, though!

[pictor]

I love driving my Model 3, the most fun I have had  driving a car since I was 16 driving around in a 67 Cadillac deville convertible.  I think  the  media is over playing the hate for EVs.  As has been stated many times, the biggest hurdle is the cost. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by pictor
Stray word removed

[silvrsvt]

14 hours ago, pictor said:

I love driving my Model 3, the most fun I have had  driving a car since I was 16 driving around in a 67 Cadillac deville convertible.  I think  the  media is over playing the hate for EVs.  As has been stated many times, the biggest hurdle is the cost. 

 

And the fear of not being able to charge as easily as fueling a car up

 

[silvrsvt]

[LSchicago]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:10 PM, 2005Explorer said:

We have a 2022 Maverick XLT AWD FX4 in our family. We made a 700 mile round trip in it to see family for Thanksgiving and averaged right at 30 MPG over the whole trip. On the way down we drove 70-80 MPH highway speeds and averaged over 30 MPG. On the way, back we were forced to drive solid ice/snow roads home in slippery mode at 55 MPH or less. That was a stressful 350 miles! I was thankful for AWD and the smart drive controls.

 

I will say the optional Falken Wildpeak AT3W's were very helpful on the extremely bad roads. 

 

So although the Ecoboost won't return the kind of MPG the hybrid will it does have excellent performance and still does very well on fuel economy. My niece has a 2018 Escape with the 2.0 EcoBoost and I have no idea why, but the Maverick will beat it all day in fuel economy. Maybe the new Escape does better. I'm not sure.

 

 

3 weeks ago I bought a little camper trailer in Nebraska. It was snowing and windy the whole trip. The FWD Hybrid did amazing. Never used slippery mode. There was over 100 wrecked and abandoned vehicles on the way there. I do have snows on my hybrid. 

[Rick73]

17 hours ago, pictor said:

I love driving my Model 3, the most fun I have had  driving a car since I was 16 driving around in a 67 Cadillac deville convertible.  I think  the  media is over playing the hate for EVs.  As has been stated many times, the biggest hurdle is the cost. 

Model 3 still seems to provide overall best value for the money.  Real-world comparison against VW ID.7 and BYD Seal in Europe shows that combination of lower cost and greater efficiency are hard to beat in that price range.  It’s a long video but very informative regarding different aspects of BEV ownership today.

 

Information on charging cost was also interesting.  Apparently Tesla Superchargers cost more for non-Tesla drivers, though still less than competitors’ chargers.  One competitor’s charger was ridiculously expensive, which contributed to the VW costing about twice as much as Tesla to drive same trip.  VW was also much less efficient than Tesla.  Using other chargers also seemed to be a hassle I wouldn’t want to deal with.  Tesla’s wireless connectivity at charger is the only way to go IMO.

 

 

https://insideevs.com/news/701337/tesla-model-3-vs-vw-id7-vs-byd-seal-which-electric-sedan-is-best/

 

[Rick73]

3 hours ago, LSchicago said:

 

 

3 weeks ago I bought a little camper trailer in Nebraska. It was snowing and windy the whole trip. The FWD Hybrid did amazing. Never used slippery mode. There was over 100 wrecked and abandoned vehicles on the way there. I do have snows on my hybrid. 

Since you mentioned winter, another detail from video above is how much range some cars can lose from colder weather.  And if I recall, temperature wasn’t really that cold — a few degrees C.

 

BYD - 23%

Tesla - 33%

VW - 48%

[Deanh]

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

And the fear of not being able to charge as easily as fueling a car up

 

little bit more to it than that silvrsvt....unless you own your own home with a charger ( if youre a renter you are at the Homeowners mercy, aprtment dwellers are pretty much screwed )and even then if theres a power blackout youre kinda up the creek , theres frequent lines and wait times to get to charging stations ( at least here ) that literally can end in fisticuffs, then theres the actual time needed for the car to actually obtain sufficient recharge, then theres cold weather performance, ....meanwhile Ive gassed my car and grabbed a cup of coffee in less than 10 minutes.....so, is it as easy as gassing a car up? debatable...Infrastructure and technologies arent at the levels of ICE conveinience YET...which, given how everything today is about lack of patience and instant gratification, kinda surprizes me how some glued to their mobile computer, have embraced the technology... 

[Deanh]

18 hours ago, pictor said:

I love driving my Model 3, the most fun I have had  driving a car since I was 16 driving around in a 67 Cadillac deville convertible.  I think  the  media is over playing the hate for EVs.  As has been stated many times, the biggest hurdle is the cost. 

2 way street I think...Media does overplay the hatred...but two articles down the page theres the exact flip flop trying to convince everyone they are the next coming of God...which to believe right?

[silvrsvt]

19 minutes ago, Deanh said:

little bit more to it than that silvrsvt....unless you own your own home with a charger ( if youre a renter you are at the Homeowners mercy, aprtment dwellers are pretty much screwed )and even then if theres a power blackout youre kinda up the creek , theres frequent lines and wait times to get to charging stations ( at least here ) that literally can end in fisticuffs, then theres the actual time needed for the car to actually obtain sufficient recharge, then theres cold weather performance, ....meanwhile Ive gassed my car and grabbed a cup of coffee in less than 10 minutes.....so, is it as easy as gassing a car up? debatable...Infrastructure and technologies arent at the levels of ICE conveinience YET...which, given how everything today is about lack of patience and instant gratification, kinda surprizes me how some glued to their mobile computer, have embraced the technology... 

 

Your not wrong with what your saying, but some of this is a mindset change-I know people who refuse to go under 1/4 tank, even though they have have a dozen gas stations within a 5 mile drive. 

 

If charging was amply available/reliable and you can charge to say 80% within 20 minutes (which is pretty reasonable with todays tech) most of your arguments are a moot point-not to mention that an EV can provide power to your house (if equipped properly) in a blackout situation. In the past 12 years or so I've been without water longer then the electricity in my houses I've owned.  

[Deanh]

14 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Your not wrong with what your saying, but some of this is a mindset change-I know people who refuse to go under 1/4 tank, even though they have have a dozen gas stations within a 5 mile drive. 

 

If charging was amply available/reliable and you can charge to say 80% within 20 minutes (which is pretty reasonable with todays tech) most of your arguments are a moot point-not to mention that an EV can provide power to your house (if equipped properly) in a blackout situation. In the past 12 years or so I've been without water longer then the electricity in my houses I've owned.  

I dont own one, I did entertain one but obviously passed, maybe a few years from now when the tech and glitches have improved...so this is based solely on Customer feedback...people in Apartments is perhaps the worst combo, they have no choice but to track down Charging stations, and Im not sure theres a quick fix for Apartment dwellers as the percentages here in So Cal are rising due to STUPID Home prices. And honest question...what happens when you utilize the vehicle to charge your house, and the Car gos dead when it depletes its battery?...and in order for it to be able to charge the Home also requires quite a financial outlay correct?... because I dont rightfully know...

[rmc523]

On 12/16/2023 at 5:52 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

 

 

On 12/17/2023 at 6:08 AM, jpd80 said:

Things really started going south when confirmation of slowing BEV sales across the industry came out,

I don’t think he could handle the truth that BEV rollout was going to take a lot longer than the early projections.

 

Many here  have been through several Ford and GM leadership cycles and know that thinks can and do change radically, so we tend to be less enthusiastic until we see just how engaged buyers actually are (sales depth).

 

The big question is if they can’t sell more than 50k/yr Lightnings now,  do they really need BOC in two years time?

 

 

Woah, that's quite interesting - I didn't realize that happened.

 

I actually did enjoy his thoughts in general, but the 18 links and graphs per post got old, as did the endless EVs are perfect and everyone should have them YESTERDAY, nothing else is good enough mantra for everything.

There was no convincing of reality that BEV rollout will take far longer than governments and BEV fanatics want - which is what we've said all along that many of these timelines are incredibly unrealistic.

 

 

19 hours ago, pictor said:

I love driving my Model 3, the most fun I have had  driving a car since I was 16 driving around in a 67 Cadillac deville convertible.  I think  the  media is over playing the hate for EVs.  As has been stated many times, the biggest hurdle is the cost. 

 

Eh, the media is on both sides of this one.

 

I've said several times - aside from cost, charging ability, etc., which are each issues in their own right - will be a mindset change going from having to fill up on the road to the ability to refill nightly (whether or not you do that way or treat it more like a fill up every few days thing is up to you).

 

30 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Your not wrong with what your saying, but some of this is a mindset change-I know people who refuse to go under 1/4 tank, even though they have have a dozen gas stations within a 5 mile drive. 

 

If charging was amply available/reliable and you can charge to say 80% within 20 minutes (which is pretty reasonable with todays tech) most of your arguments are a moot point-not to mention that an EV can provide power to your house (if equipped properly) in a blackout situation. In the past 12 years or so I've been without water longer then the electricity in my houses I've owned.  

 

I've never understood the thought of "oh no my car is at a half a tank, I'm almost out!!!" when it'll say 70 miles to empty.....so you're telling me that, despite having gas stations on every corner, you're going to do a 70 mile trip and not be able to fill up?

It's one thing on a road trip where you don't know how far the next town or rest stop is - I'll do that, but daily - nah.  I don't refill until the 50 miles to empty notification comes on.

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Since you mentioned winter, another detail from video above is how much range some cars can lose from colder weather.  And if I recall, temperature wasn’t really that cold — a few degrees C.

 

BYD - 23%

Tesla - 33%

VW - 48%

 

I would love to see some numbers for -20F (meaning 20 below zero F).  

[silvrsvt]

31 minutes ago, Deanh said:

 Im not sure theres a quick fix for Apartment dwellers as the percentages here in So Cal are rising due to STUPID Home prices. And honest question...what happens when you utilize the vehicle to charge your house, and the Car gos dead when it depletes its battery?...and in order for it to be able to charge the Home also requires quite a financial outlay correct?... because I dont rightfully know...

 

Apartment rent is roughly the same or more then what I'm paying on my house I bought about 7 years ago!

 

As for home charging and EV power-I'd assume it would be similar to what a generator would be and would be also offset by possible incentives from the local electric company-I know locally JCPL is offering incentives for electrical work to get level II charging installed. 

 

As for your battery question-using the Lightning as an example:

Ford says a fully charged Lightning with the extended-range battery pack can power your entire house for up to three days. If you're careful with your power consumption, Ford estimates it'll power your home for up to 11 days. Once the power comes back on, the system will switch back and immediately begin recharging the truck. You can also dictate a minimum level of maintained charge for your truck so you're not stranded.

 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-home-power/

 

So I'm guessing if you just keep your fridge going and maybe some lights, it will last longer then trying to run your HVAC with it.