Ford to Rethink Where It Builds Its Vehicles.

[twintornados]

8 hours ago, akirby said:

My wife was in a union job for years and I’ve seen first hand how difficult it is for the company to do anything about bad workers unless they do something illegal or against code of conduct.   And Fuzzy - who lives it every day - agrees.  I think some of you just love the idea of the union taking as much as possible from the corporations and do t have a clue how this type of co tract works in the real world.

 

Not difficult at all....all the company needs to do is follow their own agreement and it is done. I am a union rep where I work and have seen multiple employees terminated for violations. All the employer did was follow what is agreed to and it is done. The bigger issue is that usually, while the union hires and actively employs good attorneys, the employer finds the cheapest legal representation they can get their hands on and it shows.

[akirby]

2 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Not difficult at all....all the company needs to do is follow their own agreement and it is done. I am a union rep where I work and have seen multiple employees terminated for violations. All the employer did was follow what is agreed to and it is done. The bigger issue is that usually, while the union hires and actively employs good attorneys, the employer finds the cheapest legal representation they can get their hands on and it shows.

Totally different contracts and union leadership.

[Bob Rosadini]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

Totally different contracts and union leadership.

Agree.  Sounds like TT works in a company with a union contract that was signed by a responsible union and a responsible company.  Or should I  say a company that did not roll over at contract time at the threat of a walkout and rather held out for a contract that was livable for lack of a better word.

And it sounds like TT is a rep that goes by that contract.  And that means to me if a guy comes to him with a bullshit issue, first question is .."what provision of the contract was violated?"  And likewise company looks at issue and contract provisions and either "pays up" or its.."Grievance denied, no  violation of contract"...that is if a bullshit issue ends up as a filed grievance.

 

 

[twintornados]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

Totally different contracts and union leadership.

 

You would be wrong

[tbone]

22 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Under normal production conditions, Ford has three main F Series plants working at three shifts,

they are worked hard and are very efficient but prone to strike action which is why for the longest

time, Ford had no Union worries as they were happy to buy the peace.

 

Since the last contract negotiations, Ford has seen the folly of being so reliant on UAW good will

an I think that it would serve them better to go back to more Mexican plants out of the UAW’s reach….

The fact that some of the GM truck twins are being built in Mexico doesn’t seem to be impacting their sales too much, so I don’t see a reason why it affect Ford too much. 

[twintornados]

17 minutes ago, tbone said:

The fact that some of the GM truck twins are being built in Mexico doesn’t seem to be impacting their sales too much, so I don’t see a reason why it affect Ford too much. 

 

Until POTUS 45 made it a campaign issue ....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/doliaestevez/2016/10/03/debunking-trump-we-have-moved-jobs-to-ohio-from-mexico-not-the-other-way-ford-says/?sh=1a1081e86d10

Edited February 18 by twintornados

[tbone]

25 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

Until the POTUS 45 made it a campaign issue ....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/doliaestevez/2016/10/03/debunking-trump-we-have-moved-jobs-to-ohio-from-mexico-not-the-other-way-ford-says/?sh=1a1081e86d10

I recall this with the mediums and at the time applauded it.  In respect to my post I was referring to their bread and butter 1/2 tons, which doesn’t appear to impact their sales.
 

I’m all for made in the USA but as a third party observer, I thought the union demands weren’t reasonable, as such any long term repercussions will be self inflicted, IMO. 

[Vols44]

23 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

So you want the people building the cars to be paid extremely well, but you don't want them to be held responsible for the quality of the products they're making. Where much is given, much is expected. 

That's why Ford has a quality assurance department. They identify bad batches of parts, machine that require calibration and identify design flaws plus 99 other things. Finger pointing is part of Ford's past according to it's newest director of quality. I've been in enough work environments to realize employee input rarely fixes systemic issues because management would have to admit they were wrong. When middle managers are well paid, expectations are higher.

[Kev-Mo]

I'm just a fan of Ford Trucks, I don't know the in's and out's of all the labor contracts, asking for help comprehending how it works.

 

Please help me understand why it has to be Mexico?  Why can't Ford just produce in the 'right to work' southern states like all the Asian manufacturers that seem to doing just fine? 

 

It really looks bad when Toyota, Honda and Hyundai/Kia can produce in the 'USA' but all of our home teams are in Mexico.

Why can't Ford go to TX or Mississippi or Alabama or and other of the many places?

 

It seems absurd to me that a company like Ford has to be unionized in the USA but can go to Mexico and not be.  That's a 100% recipe to suck jobs from the USA.  Who came up with that bad idea? 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Kev-Mo said:

It seems absurd to me that a company like Ford has to be unionized in the USA but can go to Mexico and not be.  That's a 100% recipe to suck jobs from the USA.  Who came up with that bad idea? 

 

Because the UAW only operates in the USA and going to another state would require having an agreement with the UAW.

 

Imports don't have that problem till their workers want to join the UAW, then it will be an issue for them. I'd guess they'd pull production and move to another country within 24-48 months of that happening. 

[grbeck]

1 hour ago, Kev-Mo said:

I'm just a fan of Ford Trucks, I don't know the in's and out's of all the labor contracts, asking for help comprehending how it works.

 

Please help me understand why it has to be Mexico?  Why can't Ford just produce in the 'right to work' southern states like all the Asian manufacturers that seem to doing just fine? 

 

It really looks bad when Toyota, Honda and Hyundai/Kia can produce in the 'USA' but all of our home teams are in Mexico.

Why can't Ford go to TX or Mississippi or Alabama or and other of the many places?

 

It seems absurd to me that a company like Ford has to be unionized in the USA but can go to Mexico and not be.  That's a 100% recipe to suck jobs from the USA.  Who came up with that bad idea? 

 

As I understand it, the contract with the UAW specifically states that it will represent line workers at all Ford plants located within the U.S. 

 

Ford could try to remove that provision during future contract negotiations, but if we thought that this strike was nasty...

Edited February 20 by grbeck

[jpd80]

On 2/21/2024 at 5:36 AM, grbeck said:

 

As I understand it, the contract with the UAW specifically states that it will represent line workers at all Ford plants located within the U.S. 

 

Ford could try to remove that provision during future contract negotiations, but if we thought that this strike was nasty...

Correct, the two plants already in Kentucky are unionised, Louisville and Kentucky Truck Plant.

Pretty sure that Blue Oval Center is heading that way too.

 

Mexico offers significant cost advantage and let’s not Forget that Cuautitlan used to be a Super Duty plant

before converted to making Fiestas and now Mach E…..not suggesting that Ford immediately move

some SD production back to Mexico but it would be a possible option to hedge against any future

UAW action

Edited February 25 by jpd80

[twintornados]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

...Mexico offers significant cost advantage and let’s not Forget that Cuautitlan used to be a Super Duty plant

before converted to making Fiestas and now Mach E…..not suggesting that Ford immediately move

some SD production back to Mexico but it would be a possible option to hedge against any future

UAW action

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/02/23/uaw-solidarity-u-s-mexico-autoworkers/72715683007/

[akirby]

39 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/02/23/uaw-solidarity-u-s-mexico-autoworkers/72715683007/

Mexican plants have been unionized for decades

Edited February 25 by akirby

[twintornados]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Mexican plants have been unionized for decades

 

Point?

[Bob Rosadini]

8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Correct, the two plants already in Kentucky are unionised, Louisville and Kentucky Truck Plant.

Pretty sure that Blue Oval Center is heading that way too.

 

Mexico offers significant cost advantage and let’s not Forget that Cuautitlan used to be a Super Duty plant

before converted to making Fiestas and now Mach E…..not suggesting that Ford immediately move

some SD production back to Mexico but it would be a possible option to hedge against any future

UAW action

10-4 on Cuautitlan.  After mediums were shut down at KTP,  the new 650-750 were built there from 2000 to 2004.  That is when the International/Ford JV (Bluediamond) came into existence and the trucks were built in the International plant at Escobedo(??).  Next move was to OAP.

[akirby]

8 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Point?

The article said the UAW was helping to unionize Mexican plants.  Theyre already unionized.

[jpd80]

11 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Point?

 

 

[fuzzymoomoo]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

The article said the UAW was helping to unionize Mexican plants.  Theyre already unionized.

Their unions are unions in name only. If you thought the UAW corruption was bad, the Mexican unions make that look like petty theft. 

[twintornados]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

The article said the UAW was helping to unionize Mexican plants.  Theyre already unionized.

 

You may want to re-read the article. It talks of the UAW strengthening ties with Mexican unions and to help them unionize more work sites.  

[lfeg]

In all of this discussion, I have an observation. In working as a supplier of production machinery to the automakers I have been in many stamping and assembly plants across the US and Mexico. If it was up to me, I would prefer to locate a plant in Mexico mostly due to the workforce. In US plants I often ran into the attitude of "we cannot do it that way because we always have done it this way". And many times this ended up causing problems and delays that ended up costing multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. At the Mexican plants the workforce was more open to new and better ways of doing things.

[Bob Rosadini]

24 minutes ago, lfeg said:

In all of this discussion, I have an observation. In working as a supplier of production machinery to the automakers I have been in many stamping and assembly plants across the US and Mexico. If it was up to me, I would prefer to locate a plant in Mexico mostly due to the workforce. In US plants I often ran into the attitude of "we cannot do it that way because we always have done it this way". And many times this ended up causing problems and delays that ended up costing multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. At the Mexican plants the workforce was more open to new and better ways of doing things.

Interesting and sad.  In this day and age you would think that mindset was stamped out long go.

You use the term "workforce".  While that attitude you speak of starts with the plant manager, would you say it was across the board?-mgtmt and the union represented trades you probably interacted with as well when it came to installs?

[akirby]

I can’t speak for Mexican unions but here the obsession with restricted job duties and time really kill productivity.  I witnessed my buddy have a grievance filed against him by other union members because he stopped to turn on the printer as he was getting coffee because it took 5 minutes to warm up (this was in the early 80s).  So by the time he started working it was ready to go.  They said he was doing work outside scheduled hours.    
 

I’ve so had several occasions where I was supposed to put in a ticket and wait hours or days for someone to do something I can do myself in 2 minutes such as move a monitor.  Training and skills are necessary for some tasks but when it prevents even the simplest things from being done efficiently it’s a problem.

[rmc523]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

I can’t speak for Mexican unions but here the obsession with restricted job duties and time really kill productivity.  I witnessed my buddy have a grievance filed against him by other union members because he stopped to turn on the printer as he was getting coffee because it took 5 minutes to warm up (this was in the early 80s).  So by the time he started working it was ready to go.  They said he was doing work outside scheduled hours.    
 

I’ve so had several occasions where I was supposed to put in a ticket and wait hours or days for someone to do something I can do myself in 2 minutes such as move a monitor.  Training and skills are necessary for some tasks but when it prevents even the simplest things from being done efficiently it’s a problem.

 

Granted I'm at a small company, but we all do what needs to be done - move a monitor, offices, drive a forklift.  I get there are lots of layers of bureaucracy in larger companies, but stuff like that seems ridiculous. 

[akirby]

41 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Granted I'm at a small company, but we all do what needs to be done - move a monitor, offices, drive a forklift.  I get there are lots of layers of bureaucracy in larger companies, but stuff like that seems ridiculous. 

It’s not bureaucracy that’s how the union contracts are written (that I’ve experienced or heard of) and a lot of union members follow them to the letter and file grievances as a sport.  Because of that, management is forced to do the same so it just becomes an adversarial non productive relationship.

 

The biggest problem I experienced when my wife was a union member is the union says all my people do good work all the time and no member is better than another.  Therefore there is no reward for doing a better job than someone else and when it comes time for a transfer or promotion it’s all seniority based.  Performance has no bearing.  My wife was doing work 2 or 3 levels higher but it didn’t matter.  No reward at all.  It literally takes away every incentive to be a better employee.