tbone Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 56 minutes ago, Dequindre said: I hope that Ford invests in some significant refreshes for existing products if most new generation products are slated for the early 2030s. This can’t be overstated! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, 2005Explorer said: I just read this article. Terrible idea on these big price cuts and huge incentives. Higher ATPs should be the focus. https://electrek.co/2024/02/20/ford-slashes-prices-2023-mustang-mach-e-incentives-for-f-150-lightning/ It’s either that or they keep piling up on dealer lots. Not much choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 51 minutes ago, akirby said: It’s either that or they keep piling up on dealer lots. Not much choice. Cut production Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 2 hours ago, Dequindre said: Stellantis is looking pretty good right now for developing a vehicle architecture that can accommodate EV, PHEV, and ICE powertrains,...... Which will end up being one gigantic compromise. EV's and ICE are just too different to think that one generic platform can do each drivetrain justice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfan Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 7 hours ago, tbone said: It would be a travesty of this plant wasn’t flexible enough to build a variety of products. This plant is going to be Ford's Saturn. Saturn was supposed to build 500000 vehicles a year but got scaled back. Unless hybrids and ICE vehicles are in the mix for this BOC, this plant will probably never break 125-150k units a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfan Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 10 hours ago, jpd80 said: I think BOC is turning to shit, there’s more than enough BEV capacity at Dearborn, Ford just doesn’t want to admit it yet. Think, massive red ink because BEV sales haven’t significantly ramped up and Ford has this big ass plant in development, so something has to give, it can’t keep pushing back the timeline and pretending that hundreds and thousands of buyers are interested in buying a Lightning now or in two or three years time….. I think Ford regrets the whole BOC thing. For the time being, these vehicles could have been accommodated in a present plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfan Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 On 2/20/2024 at 7:23 PM, Broncofan7 said: GM Hustling to Bring PHEV Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra to Market (autoweek.com) Towards the end of the article until the 2030's. I think Ford and GM are pooping bricks right now. Gm committed three of their plants to EVs and Ford two. I'm sure they are looking to supplement ICE and hybrid production in at least a few of these plants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 9 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Cut production Doesn't fix the existing dealer stock. And they’re probably already planning to cut production and this is the price they think they can get even with reduced production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 8 hours ago, mackinaw said: Which will end up being one gigantic compromise. EV's and ICE are just too different to think that one generic platform can do each drivetrain justice. The EV platform will be too heavy and too expensive compared to bespoke EV platforms and you limit EV design choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 6 hours ago, Footballfan said: This plant is going to be Ford's Saturn. Saturn was supposed to build 500000 vehicles a year but got scaled back. Unless hybrids and ICE vehicles are in the mix for this BOC, this plant will probably never break 125-150k units a year. 6 hours ago, Footballfan said: I think Ford regrets the whole BOC thing. For the time being, these vehicles could have been accommodated in a present plant. I think you’re dead wrong about BOC. Having a dedicated plant building EV trucks and vans will bring costs way down compared to Lightning especially when you factor in battery production and insourcing of other parts. This is the future of EV production and nobody does trucks better than Ford even if volume is lower in the short term. You can’t build EVs in an ICE factory and do it efficiently. I’m sure they regret Oakville though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 The thing people are forgetting, is what plant would they shut down to make EVs in the US? They still need ICE manufacturing for the next 10-15 years and outside of maybe Flat Rock, the other plants are more than busy. I don't think Oakville is a big issue-they got lots of incentives from the Canadian government, but maybe the low volume that will most likely come out of it for a few years might be an issue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: I don't think Oakville is a big issue-they got lots of incentives from the Canadian government, but maybe the low volume that will most likely come out of it for a few years might be an issue. The problem with Oakville is not low EV volume per se. The problem is losing Edge production and forcing Nautilus to be imported from China. Seems like a big mistake knowing what we know now. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 2 hours ago, akirby said: I think you’re dead wrong about BOC. Having a dedicated plant building EV trucks and vans will bring costs way down compared to Lightning especially when you factor in battery production and insourcing of other parts. This is the future of EV production and nobody does trucks better than Ford even if volume is lower in the short term. You can’t build EVs in an ICE factory and do it efficiently. I’m sure they regret Oakville though. If Ford wants to they can cancel this project up here if they so choose. Can they not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 13 minutes ago, akirby said: The problem with Oakville is not low EV volume per se. The problem is losing Edge production and forcing Nautilus to be imported from China. Seems like a big mistake knowing what we know now. A dumb decision that we will pay for here with low volume and potentially unattractive overpriced products. Edited February 22 by Oacjay98 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 17 hours ago, DeluxeStang said: See, if all of these EVs were still in development, I wouldn't be concerned. But it sounds like everything that isn't t3 or the three rows is either on hold, or they've been canceled all together. Billions of dollars wasted, gone, all for nothing. I don't want Ford to flood the market with a ton of EVs they aren't ready for. But I also don't like this direction Ford is going in of throwing up their hands and giving up. Ford does this all the time, they have good ideas, but their timing is some of the worst in the auto industry. It feels like Ford is always too early, or too late to market with an idea. They screw up the timing, and then say "There's no demand" and leave the segment. We aren't gonna see millions of EV buyers overnight, but the EV market is still growing. Ford was just getting it right, investing in dedicated EV platforms, partnering with Tesla to have a reliable charging infrastructure, reducing costs. They were starting to correct their early mistakes. Now, they're basically saying we give up, there's no demand for EVs because our heavily compromised gen 1 EVs with lots of shortcomings aren't selling, it means there's no demand. No, maybe it just means figure your shit out, and come out with performance EVs that don't cut power after five seconds, and EV trucks that can actually do truck things without falling on their face. Make EVs people want, that they can afford, and that don't have lists of glaring flaws. I've been looking a lot at the Lightning after Cybertruck missed so many of their promises (towing/range/price).. after objectively looking at all of the options I think the Lightning is the best option for someone that needs a truck and wants to make the switch to BEV (The Chevy one is pretty decent too), but hoping the next generation Lightning or T3 can push a little further into heavy half/f250 range. I know they've said they aren't planning on entering that class with BEV, and realize my needs/wants are probably fairly niche, especially with the guys that measure their peen length by how many tqs their diesel has - but I'm ready to buy when someone can give me ~14k towing (I need 9-10k daily, but would like some margin and not be at max all the time) and more than 100 miles while doing it. I don't go over 100 miles on my normal route so it would work as work truck only - but I also don't want to keep the diesel around for the 3-4 times a year I tow for a weekend trip. I know it's possible with "fast" charging and all that, but I don't want to deal with that while trying to get away for a weekend 4 wheeling or camping trip. 200-250 miles on a charge would match the range of my diesel when towing and I'd be content with that. Probably be waiting until solid state batteries are viable for that to be a possibility though. But I am a potential buyer of a BEV truck, just very hesitant with how close I'd be pushing it on Lightning specs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said: If Ford wants to they can cancel this project up here if they so choose. Can they not? I would doubt it considering how close they are to balancing out production for the Edge and starting the conversion to future BEV production. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said: If Ford wants to they can cancel this project up here if they so choose. Can they not? If they want to close the plant and pay back 1.8+ billion in loans and you want to be out of a job, they could. It is better to keep the plant open and not lose the workforce. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 52 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: If they want to close the plant and pay back 1.8+ billion in loans and you want to be out of a job, they could. It is better to keep the plant open and not lose the workforce. I totally agree and obviously want to see this plan succeed. The governments forked up 590 million federal and provincial. The rest is on Fords dime. Like I said earlier in another discussion, there will be capacity issues like all of you have said until the situation improves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, ice-capades said: I would doubt it considering how close they are to balancing out production for the Edge and starting the conversion to future BEV production. The project is going forward from what I see. They’ve already set up a small U759 training station for skilled trades. State is the company that is in charge of this project and there is a lot of activity going on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 19 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: The project is going forward from what I see. They’ve already set up a small U759 training station for skilled trades. State is the company that is in charge of this project and there is a lot of activity going on. They're too far along to stop now. They’ve already cancelled all the current Edge and Nautilus suppliers so keeping the old one isn’t an option, and to bring Edge here requires a new greenhouse at least. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, akirby said: They're too far along to stop now. They’ve already cancelled all the current Edge and Nautilus suppliers so keeping the old one isn’t an option, and to bring Edge here requires a new greenhouse at least. I agree with you, these vehicles were delayed and pushed back to late 2024 early 2025 already. They were supposed to be out from 2023 but plans changed when Ford wanted more Mach-E production. Yup the current Edge is in its final days. I just think the Edge is dead period and they won’t bring the Chinese one to N/A with a new top hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 30 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: just think the Edge is dead period and they won’t bring the Chinese one to N/A with a new top hat. I would have agreed 6 months ago but with the shift on EVs they might be rethinking that. Too bad they F’ed up the Chinese version with dull styling and a 3rd row. They could at least have imported it in the meantime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 hours ago, akirby said: I would have agreed 6 months ago but with the shift on EVs they might be rethinking that. Too bad they F’ed up the Chinese version with dull styling and a 3rd row. They could at least have imported it in the meantime. You know what? I agree with you, anything is possible at this point. I just can’t get Farley and his commodity product remark regarding the Edge out of my head. The Chinese Edge is very bland so importing that isn’t feasible and the size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 18 hours ago, Footballfan said: This plant is going to be Ford's Saturn. Saturn was supposed to build 500000 vehicles a year but got scaled back. Unless hybrids and ICE vehicles are in the mix for this BOC, this plant will probably never break 125-150k units a year. Isn’t that Saturn plant GM Spring Hill?? That plant has done lots of overflow production over the years and seems to have done well long term. I believe Ford won’t allow BOC to flop as it is gonna be the newest most modern plant they have. I’m sure there is more planned for BOC going forward. I said it before and I’ll say it again, there is gonna be some plant consolidations going on in the future. I believe everyone in this forum is well aware of this and believes that is the reality of all this ICE BEV HYBRID situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dequindre Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 21 hours ago, mackinaw said: Which will end up being one gigantic compromise. EV's and ICE are just too different to think that one generic platform can do each drivetrain justice. How do you know that? STLA Large hasn't launched yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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