UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[Footballfan]

35 minutes ago, akirby said:

If you think about it the only plant really in danger of closing is flat rock and that’s not happening unless they move Mustang somewhere else.  File this under the category of “not planning to do that anyway” so no harm leaving it in the contract for 4 years.  Fight about that next contract if necessary.

It all depends on what the proposed new product will be.  

[silvrsvt]

43 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

It all depends on what the proposed new product will be.  

But given the limited options at the plant and what the market wants, there isn’t much of anything outside of this rumored off road Mustang that would make any business sense. A Mustang Raptor would be lucky to sell 20k

units a year. 
 

Any major improvements would affect Mustang production also. 
 

I still feel that Ford isn’t fully committed to adding product to the plant and it’s a just in case situation. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

26 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Any major improvements would affect Mustang production also. 

That depends. I never set foot in the body shop over there but if it’s set up even close to the way it is at MAP, they could very easily build the line for this new product in the empty half of the area without having to shut down the Mustang line at all. Paint shop is mostly a matter of programming robots. Any adjustments needing to be made to carriers and skillets in Final that can be done over time on weekends or regularly scheduled downtime. 

[silvrsvt]

10 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

That depends. I never set foot in the body shop over there but if it’s set up even close to the way it is at MAP, they could very easily build the line for this new product in the empty half of the area without having to shut down the Mustang line at all. Paint shop is mostly a matter of programming robots. Any adjustments needing to be made to carriers and skillets in Final that can be done over time on weekends or regularly scheduled downtime. 

I know when my old man was working at Edison they updated the paint booth to spray two stage paint vs single stage and it was done during a shutdown/retooling. 
 

I think the issue with flat rock is with the plant itself, which would require a lot of work because the ceilings are a limiting factor? 
 

[Footballfan]

18 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

That depends. I never set foot in the body shop over there but if it’s set up even close to the way it is at MAP, they could very easily build the line for this new product in the empty half of the area without having to shut down the Mustang line at all. Paint shop is mostly a matter of programming robots. Any adjustments needing to be made to carriers and skillets in Final that can be done over time on weekends or regularly scheduled downtime. 

They moved stamping ops to Woodhaven up the street so there's room for another body shop.

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, Footballfan said:

They moved stamping ops to Woodhaven up the street so there's room for another body shop.

Some of their stamping work came to us at ISA. They ran 2 models there at FRAP for years with stamping still in operation. 

[ice-capades]

This UAW Demand is a Big Mistake. It's Already Failed in China

Incentives and competition fuel productivity and growth, while mandated equality leads to stagnation

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/uaw-demand-big-mistake-already-failed-china

 

 

The United Auto Workers (UAW) have reportedly struck agreements with each of the Big Three auto manufacturers, hopefully bringing thousands back to work and restarting U.S. automobile production.

 

With details still being finalized, it remains to be seen how damaging these agreements will be to the U.S. But if the UAW is happy with the terms, it’s likely that they could have detrimental impacts on the U.S. economy and workforce for generations. 

 

It’s easy to understand why. The UAW has made demands that could damage the competitiveness of U.S. auto manufacturers. They’ve asked for significant wage increases and a shorter work week, making it tough for U.S. manufacturers to compete globally and potentially weakening a core and beloved American industry.

 

However, it's the UAW's third demand that is most troubling: the elimination of the two-tiered wage system, which would result in everyone in a given role receiving the same compensation, regardless of their experience or time in their position. This demand is fundamentally un-American and would have severe unintended consequences.

 

Recently, UPS eliminated their two-tiered wage system. If the UAW secures this concession, the auto industry would be the next domino to fall, putting American industry on the perilous path of self-imposed decline. Negotiators need look no further than Communist Mao Zedong’s China in the 1950s and 1960s to see the disastrous economic effects of this policy. Unsurprisingly, Marxists are advising the UAW leadership and pushing for a similar wage system.

 

Mao's vision of socialist equality, with uniform wages irrespective of occupation, education or skill level, led to disastrous economic effects and human suffering. 

 

When everyone is paid the same regardless of their performance or skills, the motivation to excel dissipates.

 

FoxBusiness.com_2023-10-31_This UAW Demand is a Big Mistake.pdf

Edited October 31, 2023 by ice-capades
Additional Content

[balthisar]

1 hour ago, ice-capades said:

With details still being finalized, it remains to be seen how damaging these agreements will be to the U.S. But if the UAW is happy with the terms, it’s likely that they could have detrimental impacts on the U.S. economy and workforce for generations. 

 

> Ford executives are already talking about the need to offset the higher expenses in this latest deal. The automaker has said the UAW contract would add $850 to $900 per vehicle in additional costs.

[Chrisgb]

The right to strike over plant closings ensures that the manufacture of more labor-intensive ICE vehicle production is artificially extended, and will hobble Detroit 3's ability to build competitive BEVS, irrespective of prevailing demand. Much the same as the railroad unions demanded firemen on locomotives for some 50 years after the conversion to diesel electric was initialized.

[Bob Rosadini]

16 minutes ago, Chrisgb said:

The right to strike over plant closings ensures that the manufacture of more labor-intensive ICE vehicle production is artificially extended, and will hobble Detroit 3's ability to build competitive BEVS, irrespective of prevailing demand. Much the same as the railroad unions demanded firemen on locomotives for some 50 years after the conversion to diesel electric was initialized.

 

Good point but I don't think ICE production will be ARTIFICIALLY extended, I just think the market will extend it because that is what the market will dictate. I believe many people recognize the false economy that is being used to sell electrification.  To say nothing of our tax dollars paying for it.

[akirby]

18 minutes ago, Chrisgb said:

The right to strike over plant closings ensures that the manufacture of more labor-intensive ICE vehicle production is artificially extended, and will hobble Detroit 3's ability to build competitive BEVS, irrespective of prevailing demand. Much the same as the railroad unions demanded firemen on locomotives for some 50 years after the conversion to diesel electric was initialized.

I don’t see it that way over the next 4 years.  I don’t see them closing any plants and if they did they would most likely convert it to BEV like Oakville.

[Chrisgb]

2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 

Good point but I don't think ICE production will be ARTIFICIALLY extended, I just think the market will extend it because that is what the market will dictate. I believe many people recognize the false economy that is being used to sell electrification.  To say nothing of our tax dollars paying for it.

 

2 hours ago, akirby said:

I don’t see it that way over the next 4 years.  I don’t see them closing any plants and if they did they would most likely convert it to BEV like Oakville.

I'll attempt to qualify my point. 

The RTS over plant closings is now in the agreement permanently, I don't see it ever coming out in future agreements. Ford and all manufacturers with a BEV iron in the fire are ok for now in this market, as the BEV market stagnates. But sooner or later Blue Oval City will have to be brought on line probably remaining at breakeven capacity for a longer time or mothballed, as the older, less efficient plants must be kept open converted or not. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Chrisgb

[akirby]

25 minutes ago, Chrisgb said:

 

I'll attempt to qualify my point. 

The RTS over plant closings is now in the agreement permanently, I don't see it ever coming out in future agreements. Ford and all manufacturers with a BEV iron in the fire are ok for now in this market, as the BEV market stagnates. But sooner or later Blue Oval City will have to be brought on line probably remaining at breakeven capacity for a longer time or mothballed, as the older, less efficient plants must be kept open. 

If they build a new plant and close an old one then transfer the workers I don’t think that will be a problem.  And nothing in a contract is permanent although I agree it will be a sticky point down the road.

[paintguy]

On 10/30/2023 at 1:48 PM, fuzzymoomoo said:

That depends. I never set foot in the body shop over there but if it’s set up even close to the way it is at MAP, they could very easily build the line for this new product in the empty half of the area without having to shut down the Mustang line at all. Paint shop is mostly a matter of programming robots. Any adjustments needing to be made to carriers and skillets in Final that can be done over time on weekends or regularly scheduled downtime. 

Paint pretreatment and e-coat tanks might also be an issue.

[fuzzymoomoo]

51 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Paint pretreatment and e-coat tanks might also be an issue.

Possibly. I don’t know for sure, I never went to that part of paint shop when I was there. 

[akirby]

5 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Possibly. I don’t know for sure, I never went to that part of paint shop when I was there. 

We were told awhile back it was the doorways between areas that were the problem.

[jpd80]

On 11/1/2023 at 5:32 AM, akirby said:

If they build a new plant and close an old one then transfer the workers I don’t think that will be a problem.  And nothing in a contract is permanent although I agree it will be a sticky point down the road.

And how many of those workers will be willing to relocate to BOC, that will be interesting to see versus say, how many take redundancy. At the moment, it doesn’t look likely that Ford’s three shift plants will be reducing staff anytime soon.

Edited November 1, 2023 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

12 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

At the moment, it doesn’t look likely that Ford’s three shift plants will be reducing staff anytime soon.

The entire Rouge complex is being deemed surplus upon ratification of the new contract. REV-C is dropping one shift, possibly 2 and DTP will remain a 2-shift operation. We’ll see how long Ranger/Bronco demand holds up but I don’t see us being a permanent 3-shift operation. I see it lasting until probably around the end of the decade at most. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

We were told awhile back it was the doorways between areas that were the problem.

I can see that. I remember there being one area in the repair hole in paint where the Lincoln bodies were too long to fit more than 1 at a time in. 

[Chrisgb]

22 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

And how many of those workers will be willing to relocate to BOC, that will be interesting to see versus say, how many take redundancy.

AFIK, the USPS has national seniority. You can bid on a position in any zip code that is open and can bump a person with less seniority who is also applying for it. I don't know how it works in the UAW, but when Teamster-represented Whirlpool Corp. left Minnesota in 1984 and moved freezer operations to Michigan and Floor Care to Danville, KY we could've moved at our own expense, but retain no seniority; start over as a new guy. I got into car sales shortly after and they closed Danville in 1990.

[fuzzymoomoo]

14 minutes ago, Chrisgb said:

AFIK, the USPS has national seniority. You can bid on a position in any zip code that is open and can bump a person with less seniority who is also applying for it. I don't know how it works in the UAW, but when Teamster-represented Whirlpool Corp. left Minnesota in 1984 and moved freezer operations to Michigan and Floor Care to Danville, KY we could've moved at our own expense, but retain no seniority; start over as a new guy. I got into car sales shortly after and they closed Danville in 1990.

In order to transfer between plants the plant which the bids will go up in first must have been deemed as having surplus of manpower. The union and company will get together and decide how many bids to post. Then once the bids are posted there’s a period if usually around 5 days to sign up for a bid. Seniority rules from there. 

[paintguy]

9 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Possibly. I don’t know for sure, I never went to that part of paint shop when I was there. 

Most people don't visit that area in any plant. Pumps, funny smells, acids and caustic materials. Not bad if you know what you are doing.

[fuzzymoomoo]

28 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Most people don't visit that area in any plant. Pumps, funny smells, acids and caustic materials. Not bad if you know what you are doing.

Sounds like Stamping. Presses are loud, everything is covered in oil, the floor is always shaking and there’s almost constant sirens from the die cranes. I’m enjoying it so far though.

[blazerdude20]

Looks like the first domino to fall post-new deal. I can only assume this it to head off any efforts to unionize Toyotas plants. 
 

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/11/01/toyota-raises-pay-across-the-board-in-response-to-historic-uaw-deals/

[rperez817]

10 hours ago, blazerdude20 said:

Looks like the first domino to fall post-new deal. I can only assume this it to head off any efforts to unionize Toyotas plants. 
 

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/11/01/toyota-raises-pay-across-the-board-in-response-to-historic-uaw-deals/

 

Thanks for that article blazerdude20. A $2.94/hour or $3.70/hour wage rate increase alone is piddly compared to what collective bargaining can achieve, as seen with UAW negotiations with Ford, GM, and Stellantis.

 

UAW needs to be very aggressive in their campaign to unionize Toyota/Mazda, Nissan, Honda, Subaru, Hyundai/Kia, VW, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volvo Cars/Geely, Tesla, Rivian, and Lucid plant workers throughout the U.S., as mentioned in the Autoblog article.

Non-union auto workers are not the enemy. Those are our future union family. We’re going to organize non-union autoworkers everywhere. Together, we’re going to stand up and take on corporate greed.