UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[Flying68]

You know there are a lot of people that would kill to make $100k after 4 years, and potentially get 5 weeks vacation plus another 3 weeks of holidays.

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, Flying68 said:

You know there are a lot of people that would kill to make $100k after 4 years, and potentially get 5 weeks vacation plus another 3 weeks of holidays.

That 5 weeks is really 3. 2 weeks of that they make you use during July shutdown. 
 

I would rather take 2 of those vacation weeks and get it in PTO instead. Vacation time can be denied by a supervisor, PTO can’t. 

[Deanh]

consequence?....wait till you see MSRP's adjust.......ugh....

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

consequence?....wait till you see MSRP's adjust.......ugh....

 

Agreed. Whatever the final terms are for the new UAW contract, you'll see an immediate impact on vehicle MSRP's. 

[ice-capades]

Ford and other OEM's (Big 3) are assuming that their billions of dollars invested in new, dedicated BEV plants will position them to increase sales and market share. The reality is that they're facing more competition, not less, which will make it more difficult to maintain market share, let alone increase market share. At the same time, it appears that the OEM"s are committing themselves to protecting UAW protected jobs in a next generation contract when BEV vehicle production will actually require less labor. 

 

There has been little to no transparency regarding the current UAW strike. The perception vs. reality is substantial demands from the UAW to make up for past contract concessions with no actual negotiations. The UAW has no interest in negotiating. It's a simple matter of drawing out the strike as long as possible until the OEM's keep increasing their offers so that the UAW and President Fain can claim a victory that can be sold to the UAW membership. And in the process, the OEM's mortgage their uncertain future.

 

There's been a lot of talk lately about pensions being the big issue which would be a major expense for the manufacturers with long term financial consequences. The easiest way to address the issue is via reasonable, increased contributions to 401K plans.

 

At some point, the OEM's have to draw a line about what they're willing to offer financially. Signing bonuses are one thing but they never should have started paying profit sharing. It's about time that one of the OEM's play hard ball and tell the UAW that substantially increased wages and benefits will come at a cost such as eliminating the profit-sharing benefit. Enough is enough! 

 

[akirby]

For that type of pension it’s not only the required annual funding but that has to be kept on the books as a future liability with all sorts of overhead and tax implications whereas a 401K contribution is paid and done.  And as fuzzy mentioned you can take your 401K from job to job and company to company.

 

I just checked my health care costs.  For 2 people mine costs the company $23K per year and that’s with a $7k deductible. Which means I pay 100% of everything - with a couple of exceptions until I’ve spent $7K annually before insurance starts paying.  And then it only pays 80%.  And that costs me $100/month.

 

The UAW plan with zero deductible and no monthly premium probably costs the company over $30k per employee.

[Deanh]

53 minutes ago, akirby said:

For that type of pension it’s not only the required annual funding but that has to be kept on the books as a future liability with all sorts of overhead and tax implications whereas a 401K contribution is paid and done.  And as fuzzy mentioned you can take your 401K from job to job and company to company.

 

I just checked my health care costs.  For 2 people mine costs the company $23K per year and that’s with a $7k deductible. Which means I pay 100% of everything - with a couple of exceptions until I’ve spent $7K annually before insurance starts paying.  And then it only pays 80%.  And that costs me $100/month.

 

The UAW plan with zero deductible and no monthly premium probably costs the company over $30k per employee.

theres always Obamacare...............too soon.....? Medical costs here are insane, I actually thought the competition would cause price wars and decreases in premiums....boy did I fall for that BS... 

[jpd80]

23 minutes ago, Deanh said:

theres always Obamacare...............too soon.....? Medical costs here are insane, I actually thought the competition would cause price wars and decreases in premiums....boy did I fall for that BS... 

Symptomatic of today’s society where things seem to be get more expensive each quarter but wages can’t seem to keep up.

When people ask for a raise it’s oh no that inflationary……

[Bob Rosadini]

On 9/29/2023 at 5:09 PM, jpd80 said:

I get the feeling that Ford will be first with a deal and that GM and Stellantis are still miles off.

So do we think that the eventual Ford contract will be the template that the others use?

 

Agree..as I said a few days ago..Fain thought he was holding a lot of cards by striking all three instead of a target to set the contract as in the past.  So he thought he would not have a pattern settlement and guess what...I  think it will be as close to a pattern as you can get. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

And as fuzzy mentioned you can take your 401K from job to job and company to company.

And unlike a pension, I can pass it on to my kids

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

The UAW plan with zero deductible and no monthly premium probably costs the company over $30k per employee.

If I remember correctly, on my W-2 it said somewhere around $34k for 2022. I would have to pull it up and look at it for a more accurate number. That’s for a family of 5. Not sure how much marital status and number of dependents changes that. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[blazerdude20]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

For that type of pension it’s not only the required annual funding but that has to be kept on the books as a future liability with all sorts of overhead and tax implications whereas a 401K contribution is paid and done.  And as fuzzy mentioned you can take your 401K from job to job and company to company.

 

I just checked my health care costs.  For 2 people mine costs the company $23K per year and that’s with a $7k deductible. Which means I pay 100% of everything - with a couple of exceptions until I’ve spent $7K annually before insurance starts paying.  And then it only pays 80%.  And that costs me $100/month.

 

The UAW plan with zero deductible and no monthly premium probably costs the company over $30k per employee.

I run a company that provides health coverage to our union employees. Our plan is 100% employer paid premium, with zero deductible to members. 85% coverage. No cost change wether the employee is single or has a family of five…  It costs us $18k per employee per year. Our costs are a little lower as we work in tandem with the union to have a self insured plan. Saves ~10% due to admin reductions. 
 

Pension costs are ~$25k per employee and increasing… it will likely be bought out in the next two years. I cannot fathom ANY company willingly adding more liability to bring back pensions. It is terrible for the company and essentially holds employees hostage to the company/union. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by blazerdude20

[fuzzymoomoo]

7 minutes ago, blazerdude20 said:

Pension costs are ~$25k per employee and increasing… it will likely be bought out in the next two years. I cannot fathom ANY company willingly adding more liability to bring back pensions. It is terrible for the company and essentially holds employees hostage to the company/union. 

Try explaining any of that to the mouthbreathing pension for all crowd. Even if they do understand it they don’t care. At all. They’re the ones that are going to be needed the most convincing to ratify any contract and from what I can tell it’s about as impossible of a task that’s possible. This will not end favorably for anyone. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

16 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 

Agree..as I said a few days ago..Fain thought he was holding a lot of cards by striking all three instead of a target to set the contract as in the past.  So he thought he would not have a pattern settlement and guess what...I  think it will be as close to a pattern as you can get. 

he would have been better off being quiet after the initial list of demands, but it’s looking more and more like making any of that public was a bad move. 

[jpd80]

9 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

he would have been better off being quiet after the initial list of demands, but it’s looking more and more like making any of that public was a bad move. 

While some rhetorical push at the start is good, I think that going on and on about “demands”

just paints the negotiating team into a corner. Sure, Ford improved their offer but it’s time to

shut up and take the deal, be a closer.

[akirby]

27 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

And unlike a pension, I can pass it on to my kids

Some pensions like mine give you a lump sum cash option which has the same benefit.  If that’s your only source it’s probably better to take the lump sum.  

[Bob Rosadini]

Back to the impact of a very high cost settlement that leaves  the "big three" at a very big disadvantage to the non union producers.

 

I wonder if the big three are already working on just how they can reduce manpower.  Watching You Tube videos I'm amazed at what I see in terms of automation.  I've only been through 3 assembly plants in my life...KTP when they were cranking out class 7,8's saw very little "automation"  certainly not to degree  that exists today.  Dearborn after the rebuild and I'm sure there is a lot more now.  Mack Macungie...several times..truly an "assembly Plant"-and the last time about 3 or 4 years ago-I'm sure they have made improvements since then.

 

But what may have been cost prohibitive before when it comes to automation, all of a sudden  may now be cost effective.  Also is it possible to expand outsourcing to produce more sub assemblies?   While Ford refuses to add Cummins engines and Allison transmissions to medium duties as that would have a negative impact on Power Stroke-Torque Shift economics,  perhaps the new cost structure will force more outsourcing. 

 

From a quality perspective I think that would be counter to efforts to reduce warranty costs but out of control labor costs may dictate a fresh approach to a lot of things.

 

 

 

 

[fuzzymoomoo]

7 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

labor costs may dictate a fresh approach to a lot of things.

I would argue that’s a good thing, especially when it comes to improving quality since it’s obvious what they’re doing now isn’t working. 

[paintguy]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

.

 

The UAW plan with zero deductible and no monthly premium probably costs the company over $30k per employee.

This is part of the deal with the UAW getting no raises for many years. As a Ford salary employee saw my insurance go to PPO or HMO coverage.80% coverage high deductibles, and mandatory use of mail in for maintenance drugs. An annual physical to get 80% coverage. And "help" calls if anything on the physical was amiss. And a premium increase every year. But almost anyone not a government employee or UAW already has that. And with that some years raises were OK, others not so good. 401K match changed. 

[paintguy]

4 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I would argue that’s a good thing, especially when it comes to improving quality since it’s obvious what they’re doing now isn’t working. 

In fairness, some of the quality issues are outside UAW control. Some of the electrical infotainment issues have little UAW involvement. Some of the techniques used on recent launches were far from optimal in achieving a quality launch. And sitting vehicles waiting for repair is just asking for chip scratch, dings and dents. Not to mention the trim damages when replacing or fixing bad parts. I'm sure you have been there. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

28 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Not to mention the trim damages when replacing or fixing bad parts. I'm sure you have been there. 

I never had the seniority to do repair jobs when I was in Final and I had no interest in working the repair hole when I was still in production in the body shop. Did metal finish for a bit but I never particularly enjoyed it. Got hurt twice on that line, it’s literally the only two times I ever had to go to medical for something other than food poisoning. 

[paintguy]

19 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I never had the seniority to do repair jobs when I was in Final and I had no interest in working the repair hole when I was still in production in the body shop. Did metal finish for a bit but I never particularly enjoyed it. Got hurt twice on that line, it’s literally the only two times I ever had to go to medical for something other than food poisoning. 

Find the safety aspect is sometimes overlooked when a campaign is done with uncommon procedures done off line. Skilled Trades gets you to unusual situation frequently. Stay safe.

[fuzzymoomoo]

28 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I have a friend who works in the mortgage industry and they mostly do lending to state employees (cops, civil servants, etc-people who have decent jobs) and the stories he tells me are insane-people refinancing their house to cover almost six figures of credit card debt or people just refinancing their houses every few years due to all the debt they get into. 

 

You have to wonder at what point does this get really messy?

Hand here I felt bad taking a $3500 loan from my 401k a few months ago to cover an unexpected expense.

[jpd80]

28 minutes ago, akirby said:

I disagree.  Ford can’t just arbitrarily decide to raise prices because of some future event - that would price them out of the current market.  

And yet Ford increase prices that are sometimes not in line with increases in supplier costs. Ford can and does increase prices but it’s done gradually so that it’s not a sudden price shock, it’s almost a constant thing now where buyers just expect the price to be higher than last year.

 

And if most other companies are also increasing prices, it doesn’t stand out as much.

Edited October 5, 2023 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

After this is over I never want to hear the phrase “hold the line” ever again. I don’t even want to hear Hold the Line by Toto ever again. 
 

I can’t put into words just how over all of this I am.